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Lack of FOSS tools?

otsvd

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TL;DR Why doesn't anyone open source their software? What can be done to fix that?

I'm dismayed at the apparent lack of Free Open Source Software in the community. I've seen a lot of threads where some tool was released (SPR/DAT editors, player management, acc, etc) but only a binary was uploaded to some crappy free sharing site and half the thread ends up asking for "rehost!" The few projects I've seen where sources were provided also have the problem of expired download links (from the same crappy free sharing sites). After a couple months (or years) the tool is obsolete and the author MIA.

The OTS is released under the GPL so the project at least started in the right spirit. Where did the community go wrong? RME was open source for awhile but the most recent versions aren't (so there can't be any new development on what seems to be the most popular map editor still). I can understand wanting compensation for the work, but I haven't seen anyone charging for these tools. Even TFS development is behind a paywall (though I get the reasoning, and commend them for keeping it open even if it's a smaller group).

Is there a lack of knowledge about the benefits of FOSS? Is there something the community can do to encourage collaboration? We have amazing tools like Github.com which will host sources (and even binaries) for free, and have great UIs for collaboration.

I think it's fantastic that so many people have wanted to contribute their tools to the community, but it saddens me that everyone has to keep re-inventing the wheel every six months. I'd love to hear your feedback.
 
Well I know this may be different since I don't program software or anything like that, but the maps I create and if I do choose to release them, once the link expires all I see is "rehost please", it's obvious why people choose not to open-source their software, OtLand has a lot of leeches who are completely ungrateful for even the slightest thing that could benefit their server the tiniest.
 
Well I know this may be different since I don't program software or anything like that, but the maps I create and if I do choose to release them, once the link expires all I see is "rehost please", it's obvious why people choose not to open-source their software, OtLand has a lot of leeches who are completely ungrateful for even the slightest thing that could benefit their server the tiniest.

Amen. People should be given credit for their hard work, all it takes is clicking the like button
 
Well I know this may be different since I don't program software or anything like that, but the maps I create and if I do choose to release them, once the link expires all I see is "rehost please", it's obvious why people choose not to open-source their software, OtLand has a lot of leeches who are completely ungrateful for even the slightest thing that could benefit their server the tiniest.
It's hard to be grateful for something beforehand. If you cant download it, there's little reason to be grateful :/

Edit: And if you release your maps as open source (which is exactly what releasing them means) you might as well use Github/Bitbucket/etc for hosting and version control; that way others may contribute to the original map and you get free hosting that doesn't expire every 7 days .

Edit2:
Amen. People should be given credit for their hard work, all it takes is clicking the like button
...because the number of likes is so much different from the download statistics?
 
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Sad state of affairs isn't it.

I would venture a guess that it's due to how there are several actors in the "business" of OT that earns a lot making use of the software available but never contributes back to the community. For example, despite me having a donation option available on the RME website for almost 5 years I've gathered a ground total of 16 euros in donations (from 3 contributors, 10, 5, 1). To be fair I don't really advertise this either but still.

I initially closed the source of RME because I couldn't be bothered to maintain the public repository. There was never any contribution back to the repository (one would hope somebody offered a patch or comment at least? :) ) so it gave me nothing. And thinking about publishing all commits is some extra work that takes time. Since nobody apparently used it I saw no reason to continue doing the work required. I would venture a guess and say this is the experience of many developers making tools for OT. There is really nothing to be gained, neither in the way of appreciation or in monetary value by having them open source. You can make lots of money selling tools, and you still will get the scarce thanks of the community of users since they don't really care if the tools are open source or not. There are simple not the abundance of (experienced) developers necessary to contribute anyways so you will get nothing back by doing it.

However the problem with this is it sets a dangerous precedent. Since most tools are closed source, new contributors will make their tools closed source to maintain the 'culture'. This attitude predated me closing the RME sources by years (SimOne's editor was closed source, as was many of the tools like BlackDemon dat editor et. al.) but I realize I maintain it. I would like to open source the map editor but since I've added some stuff I do not want to be public (relating to games I've developed myself) I will need to clean the sources up, something I do not have the time for at the moment :(.

Edit: Actually, it's probably because the "end game" in OT is always to make your own, awesome server. That inherently includes keeping secrets of how it works, which trickles down to the tools as well. I certainly know I would like to keep the dark magic that kept Classic Tibia so well-functioning secret since it is the special sauce that extra taste. This is unlike most other open-source communities. Nobody gains anything from keeping their secret-sauce that enhances their browser, or media player or private DLNA server running. Those changes benefit everybody equally and you don't market the product yourself so you keeping it private is insane. Compare this with OT. Implementing a perfect skull / party system is (was, I'm using an old example here since I don't follow Tibia any more) a huge boon to your server. I remember implementing experience sharing etc. back in the day when I first started tinkering with OTs and being the only server available with a working skull-system was an obvious attraction, drawing more players which is what you want.

TL DR; Keeping secrets pays off big in OT.
 
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Damn i feel the urge to donate, but sadly i don't have the means to do it Remere :/
 
At the present time nobody* in this community supports open-source projects (contribute and/or donate). Of course, there's some people like Benis, Summ who is trying to support OpenTibia projects (like otclient).


_
Regards,
sn3ejk
 
Sad state of affairs isn't it.

I would venture a guess that it's due to how there are several actors in the "business" of OT that earns a lot making use of the software available but never contributes back to the community. For example, despite me having a donation option available on the RME website for almost 5 years I've gathered a ground total of 16 euros in donations (from 3 contributors, 10, 5, 1). To be fair I don't really advertise this either but still.

I initially closed the source of RME because I couldn't be bothered to maintain the public repository. There was never any contribution back to the repository (one would hope somebody offered a patch or comment at least? :) ) so it gave me nothing. And thinking about publishing all commits is some extra work that takes time. Since nobody apparently used it I saw no reason to continue doing the work required. I would venture a guess and say this is the experience of many developers making tools for OT. There is really nothing to be gained, neither in the way of appreciation or in monetary value by having them open source. You can make lots of money selling tools, and you still will get the scarce thanks of the community of users since they don't really care if the tools are open source or not. There are simple not the abundance of (experienced) developers necessary to contribute anyways so you will get nothing back by doing it.

However the problem with this is it sets a dangerous precedent. Since most tools are closed source, new contributors will make their tools closed source to maintain the 'culture'. This attitude predated me closing the RME sources by years (SimOne's editor was closed source, as was many of the tools like BlackDemon dat editor et. al.) but I realize I maintain it. I would like to open source the map editor but since I've added some stuff I do not want to be public (relating to games I've developed myself) I will need to clean the sources up, something I do not have the time for at the moment :(.

Edit: Actually, it's probably because the "end game" in OT is always to make your own, awesome server. That inherently includes keeping secrets of how it works, which trickles down to the tools as well. I certainly know I would like to keep the dark magic that kept Classic Tibia so well-functioning secret since it is the special sauce that extra taste. This is unlike most other open-source communities. Nobody gains anything from keeping their secret-sauce that enhances their browser, or media player or private DLNA server running. Those changes benefit everybody equally and you don't market the product yourself so you keeping it private is insane. Compare this with OT. Implementing a perfect skull / party system is (was, I'm using an old example here since I don't follow Tibia any more) a huge boon to your server. I remember implementing experience sharing etc. back in the day when I first started tinkering with OTs and being the only server available with a working skull-system was an obvious attraction, drawing more players which is what you want.

TL DR; Keeping secrets pays off big in OT.

+1.

Since shadowcores launched, there's updates to TFS once every half year.
 
I dont believe that open source is a terrible thing, i just feel as if people dont deserve it. Too many people are in it for the money and only the money. They download everything for free. Beg the resource board, get everything done for them. And add a little to the map, a huge donor section, and jack the exp up a bit. I agree people are very ungrateful. But if someone who wants to do something and contribute back cant anymore because he or she lack the tools to do so. I just wish that someone out there could make an all in one tool, that is very user friendly and only one source is released. But its so simply complex in the coding anyone can update it. Its just too much work for someone to do. It sucks.
 
+1.

Since shadowcores launched, there's updates to TFS once every half year.
Please don't talk, TFS is the last thing to talk about here. You did not even understand the topic.

@topic
I like otclient being open source and would love to see more people contributing.
For example the reason why my Spr/Dat editor isn't open source is because I don't want people to see my crappy coding xD
 
It would also be great to see more energy put into things people actually need mapeditor and distros comes to mind, instead of useless things like otclient.
 
It would also be great to see more energy put into things people actually need mapeditor and distros comes to mind, instead of useless things like otclient.

You nearly have the same opinion as me, but I would like to add that OTC isn't useless. OTC was/is a great contribution to the community. But with your first statement, that map editors and distributions should get updated more often, I agree. The only reason it isn't like that is that the community now has changed a lot. They only want to make money with other peoples work, that's why there are less open-source programs. If the community was different, if the community was helping the developer, finding bugs, testing, donating etcetera, there would be more open-source programs. The main perpetrator is the community.
 
I agree with the thread starter, and there will be an announcement in the coming weeks about huge changes to OtLand that is intended to address these flaws in the community. Here's a hint to one of the changes, for the curious: https://github.com/otland/.

+1.

Since shadowcores launched, there's updates to TFS once every half year.

It's sad how people like you who haven't contributed a single line of code to OT can come out of nowhere and comment on lack of updates on free and open-source software like TFS. For your information, I've updated more code in TFS since ShadowCores launched than I had for the 6 years before that. Running ShadowCores has helped me find a lot of bugs and bad code in TFS, which I've fixed and released for free to people who are running servers without even putting 10% of the effort I put into ShadowCores on their servers.
 
Free? That's new.
Facepalm.png
 
I agree with the thread starter, and there will be an announcement in the coming weeks about huge changes to OtLand that is intended to address these flaws in the community. Here's a hint to one of the changes, for the curious: https://github.com/otland/.



It's sad how people like you who haven't contributed a single line of code to OT can come out of nowhere and comment on lack of updates on free and open-source software like TFS. For your information, I've updated more code in TFS since ShadowCores launched than I had for the 6 years before that. Running ShadowCores has helped me find a lot of bugs and bad code in TFS, which I've fixed and released for free to people who are running servers without even putting 10% of the effort I put into ShadowCores on their servers.

Thanks Talaturen, you true i saw the changes in TFS. Now they don't break easily, it's incredible how u can mantain 1,5-2k players there.
Thanks for your great work!
 
It would also be great to see more energy put into things people actually need mapeditor and distros comes to mind, instead of useless things like otclient.

And see less energy in useless criticism, so why you don't stop complain and go do it yourself ??

Sad state of affairs isn't it.

I would venture a guess that it's due to how there are several actors in the "business" of OT that earns a lot making use of the software available but never contributes back to the community. For example, despite me having a donation option available on the RME website for almost 5 years I've gathered a ground total of 16 euros in donations (from 3 contributors, 10, 5, 1). To be fair I don't really advertise this either but still.

I initially closed the source of RME because I couldn't be bothered to maintain the public repository. There was never any contribution back to the repository (one would hope somebody offered a patch or comment at least? ) so it gave me nothing. And thinking about publishing all commits is some extra work that takes time. Since nobody apparently used it I saw no reason to continue doing the work required. I would venture a guess and say this is the experience of many developers making tools for OT. There is really nothing to be gained, neither in the way of appreciation or in monetary value by having them open source. You can make lots of money selling tools, and you still will get the scarce thanks of the community of users since they don't really care if the tools are open source or not. There are simple not the abundance of (experienced) developers necessary to contribute anyways so you will get nothing back by doing it.

However the problem with this is it sets a dangerous precedent. Since most tools are closed source, new contributors will make their tools closed source to maintain the 'culture'. This attitude predated me closing the RME sources by years (SimOne's editor was closed source, as was many of the tools like BlackDemon dat editor et. al.) but I realize I maintain it. I would like to open source the map editor but since I've added some stuff I do not want to be public (relating to games I've developed myself) I will need to clean the sources up, something I do not have the time for at the moment .

Edit: Actually, it's probably because the "end game" in OT is always to make your own, awesome server. That inherently includes keeping secrets of how it works, which trickles down to the tools as well. I certainly know I would like to keep the dark magic that kept Classic Tibia so well-functioning secret since it is the special sauce that extra taste. This is unlike most other open-source communities. Nobody gains anything from keeping their secret-sauce that enhances their browser, or media player or private DLNA server running. Those changes benefit everybody equally and you don't market the product yourself so you keeping it private is insane. Compare this with OT. Implementing a perfect skull / party system is (was, I'm using an old example here since I don't follow Tibia any more) a huge boon to your server. I remember implementing experience sharing etc. back in the day when I first started tinkering with OTs and being the only server available with a working skull-system was an obvious attraction, drawing more players which is what you want.

TL DR; Keeping secrets pays off big in OT.


I agree with you but its so dangerous when it comes to other side, the selfish one, and destroy the community.
I hope with time, when there are no other option besides doing it by your own or need to buy, people start working on a new Open Tibia and become more recepitive to the spirit of sharing
 
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