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Some thoughts on the community openness direction

edubart

Advanced OT User
Joined
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After reading the topic Do not use/buy OTC V8 (https://otland.net/threads/do-not-use-buy-otc-v8.270031/),
I was rambling about some thoughts so I decided to write some words for the community.

For those who doesn't remember me I am the author of OTClient, I am specially focusing on this question
pondered on that thread:

When did we lost the sense of a open project community and why 'big players' of the development are more and more away from it?

It's sad that in this capitalist world most people don't want to share improvement just to avoid helping
competitors, this sure make things in the world evolve much slower and keep the available tools underdeveloped.
Just some few minds have enough appreciation for a desired open project that making money is not a part of the equation to such
point where keeping things private makes no sense and would only slow down the time to achieve the desired goal
and also would make few people appreciate it.
We have to thank that such rare people exists that go years developing great open source tools we all use today
(just look at all GitHub projects), all with no earning back.

Unfortunately people like these are rare and may not last for long, because we all have to survive
and living without earns for too long is impractical in this world. At the same time
most people want to earn as much as possible using the less work, money and time as possible.
If they have the option to earn without contributing back most probably will, these kind of people are the leechers.
That is just how the world usually works, people are usually leechers and we all have to coexist with them.

To keep these rare minds motivated others that do appreciate or may find their work useful at
some point must incentive or contribute back somehow, even knowing some leechers will take advantage.
Otherwise those minds may step away because lack of incentive or because a private party will pay
enough so they can work on something else to the point the open project contribution will cease.
When these minds stop working on their open creations for whatever reason is also very sad for them
because they have put too much work on it and may end up doing other silly stuff just engage more
with others or to survive.

The OT community lost me as a contributor somewhere along those lines and realizing the whole community is
in a prisoner's dilemma. Where game developers
don't want to help open contributions just because others may use. Even though if
in a better world if all game competitors sponsored together monthly enough amount for a few capable minds to
improve its tools like server/client/mapeditor they could end up with much better tools than
each individual would had paying for improvements in the private. If things worked like that
also imagine the saved developing time and money fixing, improving the same codes that are worked
by each game project.

Additionally with years I have come to realize that great active opensource projects must always have a highly
capable mind maintaining, otherwise the project will die out and its very improbable to someone take
the shoes of the original project creator, this happens everywhere. Take for example LuaJIT which
is a great open project but is without improvements for years because no one can replace the original author.
So the OT community should have valued more capable minds behind those projects, otherwise capable minds
will keep going away and what will be left is a community of leechers. Is sad that many profitable OT
games feel no gratitude to back to the open projects they are using, most gives nothing back to the original
creators that may have put years of work, unless they get something a little more and in private.

For those wondering what I think about OTCv8

I think the community is getting what deserved along these years,
a leecher developer that uses open code taking advantage of a leecher community that likes to use
open code without giving much back, and the community will probably continue in that direction until the openness will die out.
I don't blame much OTCv8 author because if he worked in the open like I did in this community he would find himself earning
nothing and at some point stopping for the same reasons. He is just a different kind of developer than me that
probably follows the money taking advantage of what it can, the world is full of this kind of people.
I always have been more naive when developing things, making in the open and with no money attached whenever possible,
just for curiosity of doing, and nobody should expect other developers to be like that. Most are trying
to survive or to reach selfish dreams, few are open minded and trying to share open creations with the world
to the point of giving up pursuing money.
 
Last edited:
After reading the topic Do not use/buy OTC V8 (https://otland.net/threads/do-not-use-buy-otc-v8.270031/),
I was rambling about some thoughts so I decided to write some words for the community.

For those who doesn't remember me I am the author of OTClient, I am specially focusing on this question
pondered on that thread:



It's sad that in this capitalist world most people don't want to share improvement just to avoid helping
competitors, this sure make things in the world evolve much slower and keep the available tools underdeveloped.
Just some few minds have enough appreciation for a desired open project that making money is not a part of the equation to such
point where keeping things private makes no sense and would only slow down the time to achieve the desired goal
and also would make few people appreciate it.
We have to thank that such rare people exists that go years developing great open source tools we all use today
(just look at all GitHub projects), all with no earning back.

Unfortunately people like these are rare and may not last for long, because we all have to survive
and living without earns for too long is impractical in this world. At the same time
most people want to earn as much as possible using the less work, money and time as possible.
If they have the option to earn without contributing back most probably will, these kind of people are the leechers.
That is just how the world usually works, people are usually leechers and we all have to coexist with them.

To keep these rare minds motivated others that do appreciate or may find their work useful at
some point must incentive or contribute back somehow, even knowing some leechers will take advantage.
Otherwise those minds may step away because lack of incentive or because a private party will pay
enough so they can work on something else to the point the open project contribution will cease.
When these minds stop working on their open creations for whatever reason is also very sad for them
because they have put too much work on it and may end up doing other silly stuff just engage more
with others or to survive.

The OT community lost me as a contributor somewhere along those lines and realizing the whole community is
in a prisoner's dilemma. Where game developers
don't want to help open contributions just because others may use. Even though if
in a better world if all game competitors sponsored together monthly enough amount for a few capable minds to
improve its tools like server/client/mapeditor they could end up with much better tools than
each individual would had paying for improvements in the private. If things worked like that
also imagine the saved developing time and money fixing, improving the same codes that are worked
by each game project.

Additionally with years I have come to realize that great active opensource projects must always have a highly
capable mind maintaining, otherwise the project will die out and its very improbable to someone took
the shoes of the original project creator, this happens everywhere. Take for example LuaJIT which
is a great open project but is without improvements for years because no one can replace the original author.
So the OT community should have valued more capable minds behind those projects, otherwise capable minds
will keep going away and what will be left is a community of leechers. Is sad that many profitable OT
games feel no gratitude to back to the open projects they are using, most gives nothing back to the original
creators that may have put years of work, unless they get something a little more and in private.



I think the community is getting what deserved along these years,
a leecher developer that uses open code taking advantage of a leecher community that likes to use
open code without giving much back, and the community will probably continue in that direction until the openness will die out.
I don't blame much OTCv8 author because if he worked in the open like I did in this community he would find himself earning
nothing and at some point stopping for the same reasons. He is just a different kind of developer than me that
probably follows the money taking advantage of what it can, the world is full of this kind of people.
I always have been more naive when developing things, making in the open and with no money attached whenever possible,
just for curiosity of doing, and nobody should not expect other developers to be like that. Most are trying
to survive or to reach selfish dreams, few are open minded and trying to share open creations with the world
to the point of giving up pursuing money.

Never thought of open-source this way. I am currently working on University project which is mostly related to open-source. I will be sure to add/reference your input. Much appreciated:p
 
I hope this makes some people reflect, its insane how some people can use an open source project to profit horrors upon him and in the end they don’t contribute anything ...
 
@edubart I never had chance to contact you so I’m gonna say it here and hopefully you can notice that. I just wanted to thank you for all the great contributions you made to support open tibia.
About the topic, that’s sad but true. We all have to live from something, if you got a full time job you most likely dont have time to contribute to open source communities. So keep that in mind, when you see someone dedicating their free time to improve stuff so others can later use and benefit from this, they probably arent getting anything out of that.
 
Well, the topic is true story and very sadly. BUT earning money on open-source that was made for and by community shall not be used to earn money to own pocket atleast not those two basic project that is a needed to make open-tibia be alive as TFS and OTClient.
 
I don't want to take away from the main points made in this thread - I agree with them for the most part.
The only thing I want to add is that the MIT licence explicitly allows for anyone to provide the software at commercial terms without also providing the source. There are other licences available that don't allow for this, but MIT and other highly permissive licences are the most popular by far because allowing this absolute freedom is part of what people believe in.
 
I don't want to take away from the main points made in this thread - I agree with them for the most part.
The only thing I want to add is that the MIT licence explicitly allows for anyone to provide the software at commercial terms without also providing the source. There are other licences available that don't allow for this, but MIT and other highly permissive licences are the most popular by far because allowing this absolute freedom is part of what people believe in.

I think this discussion is more about morals and ethics than rules itself.

We all know it is allowed to sell this type of stuff. What everyone it trying to say is the fact that it is sad to see so many great things not being implemented on the public repositories just because of greed.
 
I have returned after a long time away, and I will not some little wet-behind-the-ears Polish post-teen destroy the community I once poured so much of myself into. Mr. B better start giving back, or I will make certain the entire global professional software development ecosystem is aware of the kind of parasite he is. I am fully capable of being a monster, if he wants to set fire to my hobby I will damn well set fire to his future.

🤬 Come Icarus, let me show you the light.

1587564776652.png

For me it's not about compensation, or even recognition, it's about consideration. I do not mind writing code and just giving it away. I am older than most here, and I've no longer anyone to take of but myself. But there is only one of me. I only get so much time to write code. If any of that time is spent writing code you've already written but refuse to share, especially for petulant profiteering, than you are in error, and you are not only robbing the community, you are robbing me. I don't tolerate those who would commit such sin against their fellow man. Willfully forcing duplicated effort is the gravest sin among our kind, did they not teach you that at that fancy college in Warsaw?

You clearly know you're acting in a very exploitative manner here, and that's why you went through so much trouble to make a new identity and erase so many of your old ones. Your shame lays naked before me. And there are more eldritch abominations like me out there, watching through the eyes of heaven, and we will always find you. I'm going to be spending the next few months on tedious busywork unrelated to the client. I hope by the time I'm finished with it you've reexamined the wisdom of abusing your talents to fleece a community instead of merely plying your trade as a bit herder.

You can keep your performance refactors, more people need to learn how to use profilers anyway, but every bugfix patch you hoard is a sin. And you'll share the same level of hell as the Mylan executives.
 
I have returned after a long time away, and I will not some little wet-behind-the-ears Polish post-teen destroy the community I once poured so much of myself into. Mr. B better start giving back, or I will make certain the entire global professional software development ecosystem is aware of the kind of parasite he is. I am fully capable of being a monster, if he wants to set fire to my hobby I will damn well set fire to his future.

🤬 Come Icarus, let me show you the light.

View attachment 44619

For me it's not about compensation, or even recognition, it's about consideration. I do not mind writing code and just giving it away. I am older than most here, and I've no longer anyone to take of but myself. But there is only one of me. I only get so much time to write code. If any of that time is spent writing code you've already written but refuse to share, especially for petulant profiteering, than you are in error, and you are not only robbing the community, you are robbing me. I don't tolerate those who would commit such sin against their fellow man. Willfully forcing duplicated effort is the gravest sin among our kind, did they not teach you that at that fancy college in Warsaw?

You clearly know you're acting in a very exploitative manner here, and that's why you went through so much trouble to make a new identity and erase so many of your old ones. Your shame lays naked before me. And there are more eldritch abominations like me out there, watching through the eyes of heaven, and we will always find you. I'm going to be spending the next few months on tedious busywork unrelated to the client. I hope by the time I'm finished with it you've reexamined the wisdom of abusing your talents to fleece a community instead of merely plying your trade as a bit herder.

You can keep your performance refactors, more people need to learn how to use profilers anyway, but every bugfix patch you hoard is a sin. And you'll share the same level of hell as the Mylan executives.
Oh no, you're fully capable of being a monster, what will he do?
r/iamverybadass
 
Oh no, you're fully capable of being a monster, what will he do?

1587569957032.png

My whole point is it may not even be me, its a mindset thing. Others far closer to him may make the exact same assessment as I have. He's extremely talented as an engineer, it would be a shame if that doesn't take him as far is it should because people find out he's a shyster.

But if he was foolish enough to get his steam credentials phished two years ago, then he's already making too many mistakes too keep playing the game he's playing and not eventually get burned hard. 🙏 Friendly warning of what I see happening.
 
@edubart Hey, you did amazing job man. It's sad that some servers took your code, contributed nothing, make hundreds of thousands dollars and donate you almost nothing. If you didn't see, otcv8 has been used by ~60k users, so soon or later otclient will become most popular tibia client, thanks to you.

You know, it's not like I don't like open source, I prefer it and I would be happy to make it open source if people making money on it paid for that. Slavi was trying to get donation for his unity client, Slavi is creating Opentibia in Unity | Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/slavidodo), as we know it didn't end up well.
I open sourced as much as I could, otcv8 is free to use, almost everything can be done in lua. There are only few people complaining who would like to get even more for free.
Even otland global moderators whcih have bug fixes to most problem you have don't share it with you, i recomment to read my post about it - OTClientV8 (https://otland.net/threads/otclientv8.266603/page-13#post-2591248)
The difference between them and me is you can buy those things from me, they won't help you because you are competition for them.

For those who don't like me here, I have good news for you. I good got long term contact for another project, so will be leaving tibia community by the end of this month. After that will focus only on small improvements for otcv8, but not more than 40h/month. I hope you will find someone who will replace me and do everything as open source.
 
Kondra did best thing ever for OTLand in years for both players and Devs. This client is lightyears ahead of anything else, even smoother than real client. It's really sad seeing pathethic old developers and otland mods who have had nothing to do with tibia or ots for years and crying about this project, you can even do pretty much everything in Lua with the changes Kondra has added. Also what Is really funny is most people hating on this project, is people who charge complete newbies $10 for simple Lua scripts
Two prime examples Programmer - [LUA/C++/Web] Temporary available for hire (https://otland.net/threads/lua-c-web-temporary-available-for-hire.268272/) Programmer - TFS 1.x Programming Services (https://otland.net/threads/tfs-1-x-programming-services.255378/) Probably just Jealous, keep charging complete newbies 10$ per hour for Lua scripts xD

NEEDLE
 
Kondra did best thing ever for OTLand in years for both players and Devs. This client is lightyears ahead of anything else, even smoother than real client. It's really sad seeing pathethic old developers and otland mods who have had nothing to do with tibia or ots for years and crying about this project, you can even do pretty much everything in Lua with the changes Kondra has added. Also what Is really funny is most people hating on this project, is people who charge complete newbies $10 for simple Lua scripts
Two prime examples Programmer - [LUA/C++/Web] Temporary available for hire (https://otland.net/threads/lua-c-web-temporary-available-for-hire.268272/) Programmer - TFS 1.x Programming Services (https://otland.net/threads/tfs-1-x-programming-services.255378/) Probably just Jealous, keep charging complete newbies 10$ per hour for Lua scripts xD

NEEDLE
Whats the reason you are linking my thread in that bunch of nonsense flame from your side when I literally say nothing just to avoid people like you?
 
Kondra did best thing ever for OTLand in years for both players and Devs. This client is lightyears ahead of anything else, even smoother than real client. It's really sad seeing pathethic old developers and otland mods who have had nothing to do with tibia or ots for years and crying about this project, you can even do pretty much everything in Lua with the changes Kondra has added. Also what Is really funny is most people hating on this project, is people who charge complete newbies $10 for simple Lua scripts
Two prime examples Programmer - [LUA/C++/Web] Temporary available for hire (https://otland.net/threads/lua-c-web-temporary-available-for-hire.268272/) Programmer - TFS 1.x Programming Services (https://otland.net/threads/tfs-1-x-programming-services.255378/) Probably just Jealous, keep charging complete newbies 10$ per hour for Lua scripts xD

NEEDLE

U mean @edubart did?
For me he just make a good edit of that with a good bot

No offense, i also gave suggestions to his developement, just because i like to see what he was doing, but i would never use that

For those who don't like me here, I have good news for you. I good got long term contact for another project, so will be leaving tibia community by the end of this month. After that will focus only on small improvements for otcv8, but not more than 40h/month. I hope you will find someone who will replace me and do everything as open source.

Good news for those who use a closed source project...
Soon a dead project, but this one cant be evolved
 
U mean @edubart did?
For me he just make a good edit of that with a good bot

No. Kondra did, normal otclient has been riddled with bugs for years, bad performance and feeling really poor to play on in general to the point of being unusable without huge changes which never have been shared. All those things are fixed in otcv8. Now we have a good alternative client for the public, and we can stop using the ancient real tibia client TFS uses.

@Nekiro The pooint of showing that is to show the hypocrisy, why can't kondrah charge 5k$ for insane optimisations and fixes while you guys can charge 10$ for simple scripts? And just looking at ur old post, or have a peek in otland discord u guys really dispise this client but for me it mostly screams jealousy,
 
Kondra did best thing ever for OTLand in years for both players and Devs. This client is lightyears ahead of anything else, even smoother than real client. It's really sad seeing pathethic old developers and otland mods who have had nothing to do with tibia or ots for years and crying about this project, you can even do pretty much everything in Lua with the changes Kondra has added. Also what Is really funny is most people hating on this project, is people who charge complete newbies $10 for simple Lua scripts
Two prime examples Programmer - [LUA/C++/Web] Temporary available for hire (https://otland.net/threads/lua-c-web-temporary-available-for-hire.268272/) Programmer - TFS 1.x Programming Services (https://otland.net/threads/tfs-1-x-programming-services.255378/) Probably just Jealous, keep charging complete newbies 10$ per hour for Lua scripts xD

NEEDLE
What the hell are you talking about? I've made plenty of small scripts for free when someone contacted me with intention to pay for them. I'm not even pricing my work per hour, find someone else to shit on or get your facts straight.
 
Ok guys, I changed my mind. OTLand should be only about open source projects, I won't be talking about closed sourced project anymore. I asked moderator to close all my threads, he can also delete them if he think it's better. I really hope this community will become better without it, wish you all the best, OpenTibia future is in your hands, I belive all of you together will create amazing things, can't wait to see them!
 
@edubart Hey, you did amazing job man. It's sad that some servers took your code, contributed nothing, make hundreds of thousands dollars and donate you almost nothing. If you didn't see, otcv8 has been used by ~60k users, so soon or later otclient will become most popular tibia client, thanks to you.

You know, it's not like I don't like open source, I prefer it and I would be happy to make it open source if people making money on it paid for that. Slavi was trying to get donation for his unity client, Slavi is creating Opentibia in Unity | Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/slavidodo), as we know it didn't end up well.
I open sourced as much as I could, otcv8 is free to use, almost everything can be done in lua. There are only few people complaining who would like to get even more for free.
Even otland global moderators whcih have bug fixes to most problem you have don't share it with you, i recomment to read my post about it - OTClientV8 (https://otland.net/threads/otclientv8.266603/page-13#post-2591248)
The difference between them and me is you can buy those things from me, they won't help you because you are competition for them.

For those who don't like me here, I have good news for you. I good got long term contact for another project, so will be leaving tibia community by the end of this month. After that will focus only on small improvements for otcv8, but not more than 40h/month. I hope you will find someone who will replace me and do everything as open source.

@kondra Just to make clear I admire that you took effort and time to solve many issues within the original otclient and kept evolving based on my work, just as I admire many others have done the same in private. But at the same time I feel somewhat unhappy just as you would feel if someone was profiting with your work while they give nothing back, and some people in the community aren't happy too (while some take this unhappiness to extreme). This put you in a delicate place where some does like your work and others abolish (not much me, I am more indifferent within respect with that, but I could certainly admire if it was open).

Maybe you could ponder a model switch for the sake of your project image in the community. Just to give some ideias some open source projects are successful while the maintainers may make money of it, there are multiple ways do achieve this. I have no ideia what could work for you and the community, but let me give some ideias. You could make your client fully open source and offer goodies for backers who pay you monthly. Like personal support, exclusive tutorials, access to a private chat with you, prioritize new features/bugfixes that backers ask, provide them ready pre compiled binaries and offer access to nightly development git branch just to backers, making the official open source repository outdated for a few weeks/months. This way people will have many incentive to back your project and you could still be making money and all the people would still appreciate your work. Even more some people would be able to help you coding thus minimizing your work. If you are planning stop doing this project maybe you have nothing to lose trying to approaching like this. I feel somewhat sad at the moment, because I see the community hate in the forum and out there because of your project, and you are using my work and getting some hate from this. And my work was never intended to generate hate in any community, just to help out, maybe you have the chance to switch that.
 
@edubart as always full of reason and common sense. Some people are unable to shell out such a large amount for the open source. This point should be taken into account in some way... Maybe you set a value, and we in the community can get it so that this code can be accessible to everyone.
@kondra Wouldn't that possibility exist?
 
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