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Suggestion Clarify and follow rules

Night Wolf

I don't bite.
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This is going to sound super stupid but this isn't the first time posts/threads of mine are deleted arbitrarily, sometimes I even received warns even being compliant with otland rules.

I've created a chat message a while ago with @Don Daniello, @Kaspar and @WibbenZ to share this frustration but I think we should also involve the rest of community in this feedback.

My suggestion is:
1) if the rules aren't clear in a particular situation, can we then change the rules instead of just saying "rules are only a guide, we do what we judge is right"
2) can we please enforce rules are being followed BY EVERY MEMBER (including staff)? I don't understand why we let specific members flame other repositories while when devs of those repositories try to defend themselves their posts are deleted.

If the general rule is to stick to thread, why haven't @epunker being warned in his COUNTLESS accusations of members of Otbr? Do I need to start reporting one by one?
 
Why was the thread cleared anyway? If you don't want a discussion don't make threads. I was coming to terms with other guys already, but you had to powertrip again.

The discussion wasn't offtopic. It involved the projects I based my code on so this was relevant, even if it didn't fit your point of view.
 
The Forgotten Server Development board was created for the purpose of assisting TFS Developers with the otland/forgottenserver github repository.
Threads and posts in this board should be related specifically to this subject, giving ideas and helping them.

The thread TFS master protocol 12.x support [Development Thread] has recently been cleaned by me.
The clean involved removing offtopic or rude statements, no warnings were issued.
(But I did send some notifications that their posts was deleted/modified).

When offtopic posts are deleted and rude statements modified out, any replies to them are also deleted, as they are no longer relevant.

Reviewing posts in the thread by @Night Wolf and @zbizu, your deleted posts was just the waterfall effect.
They were deleted because they quoted a deleted post or addressed content of a post that has been modified out.
I took an aggressive stance on the cleanup because it was considered not helpful by TFS Developers.

As for @Night Wolf's suggestions:
1: Clear rules benefits everybody, and we try to keep it short(ish) and simple. For anyone curious, here is our global rules. Boards may have board specific rules in addition to these global ones, to help the environment of a specific board. For instance, server gala has pretty strict board rules when it comes to creating threads.

But there are often situations where the moderators has to judge by themselves or between each other what to do in certain situations, as there are different challenges we moderators have to deal with.

The creation and enforcement of board rules grows naturally as the board matures. If we moderate content that is not in violation of a rule we can enforce and reference, we do not punish the user with warning points.

2: Yes. Rules are to be enforced by everyone, even the staff members. If you report posts they will end up in a moderators queue, and if they are in violation of a rule they will be warned.
 
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it was considered not helpful by TFS Developers

excuse me, but who exactly is making the commits in the update we were discussing? Nobody asked me if I consider it helpful or not, you know?
I'm not afraid of facing people with opposite views. In fact, it was an opportunity to unite everyone.
 
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excuse me, but who exactly is making the commits in the update we were discussing? Nobody asked me if I consider it helpful or not, you know?
I'm not afraid of facing people with opposite views. In fact, it was an opportunity to unite everyone.
I love your PR, and from my personal perspective you seem to be on the path to become an officially recognized TFS Developer. (I even vouched for you last time, before you spat in our face). Trust, respect and cooperation is essential to be an official member of our team.

I also like the OTBR community, I have high respect for their developers, and wish them a welcoming atmosphere here on otland. I am against spreading accusations and hate towards them. We are all great open source projects, the code we contribute to the community benefits us all.

But that is not a discussion to be had in The Forgotten Server Development board.
 
This is going to sound super stupid but this isn't the first time posts/threads of mine are deleted arbitrarily, sometimes I even received warns even being compliant with otland rules.

I've created a chat message a while ago with @Don Daniello, @Kaspar and @WibbenZ to share this frustration but I think we should also involve the rest of community in this feedback.

My suggestion is:
1) if the rules aren't clear in a particular situation, can we then change the rules instead of just saying "rules are only a guide, we do what we judge is right"
2) can we please enforce rules are being followed BY EVERY MEMBER (including staff)? I don't understand why we let specific members flame other repositories while when devs of those repositories try to defend themselves their posts are deleted.

If the general rule is to stick to thread, why haven't @epunker being warned in his COUNTLESS accusations of members of Otbr? Do I need to start reporting one by one?
Clarify your Suggestion thread first and we might be able to look into it.
What rules do you want to be changed or added?
 
I dont want to add new rules, I just need to have a clear guideline on dos and don'ts.
My first warning was a completely one sided situation where I simply said:
"You shouldn't pay 5k Usd in a project that isn't final yet" and I got a warning for >> advertising <<. It simply makes no sense.

I would like the rules to be clarified so we stop facing situations where people simply bend or FORCE an interpretation on the rules to apply what they want to happen.
 
The Forgotten Server Development board was created for the purpose of assisting TFS Developers with the otland/forgottenserver github repository.
Threads and posts in this board should be related specifically to this subject, giving ideas and helping them.

The thread TFS master protocol 12.x support [Development Thread] has recently been cleaned by me.
The clean involved removing offtopic or rude statements, no warnings were issued.
(But I did send some notifications that their posts was deleted/modified).

When offtopic posts are deleted and rude statements modified out, any replies to them are also deleted, as they are no longer relevant.

Reviewing posts in the thread by @Night Wolf and @zbizu, your deleted posts was just the waterfall effect.
They were deleted because they quoted a deleted post or addressed content of a post that has been modified out.
I took an aggressive stance on the cleanup because it was considered not helpful by TFS Developers.

As for @Night Wolf's suggestions:
1: Clear rules benefits everybody, and we try to keep it short(ish) and simple. For anyone curious, here is our global rules. Boards may have board specific rules in addition to these global ones, to help the environment of a specific board. For instance, server gala has pretty strict board rules when it comes to creating threads.

But there are often situations where the moderators has to judge by themselves or between each other what to do in certain situations, as there are different challenges we moderators have to deal with.

The creation and enforcement of board rules grows naturally as the board matures. If we moderate content that is not in violation of a rule we can enforce and reference, we do not punish the user with warning points.

2: Yes. Rules are to be enforced by everyone, even the staff members. If you report posts they will end up in a moderators queue, and if they are in violation of a rule they will be warned.

I really understand your attitude and I even agree on some points. But I have more than once reported these free and unfounded attacks to myself and other OTBR contributors and was told that the comments were in line with the rules. This is another example of how much we need to reach a common sense of the rule to be followed and this topic is relevant in this discussion. Otherwise, we will have the feeling that the rule was not made to avoid off-topic and attacks against us, but to prevent us from being able to defend or argue..

1635448249309.png
Contextualizing: I sent a report at least 4 times, saying that the comment in question was flood (it can also be understood as off-topic), in all the answers were that it was a normal comment and that it was just the user's opinion . But, they deleted my comment. So, my "opinion" (I reiterate, defending from attacks) is not valid and it is off-topic. But the other, with defamation and disrespect, are they valid and are they not off-topic?

The defamations, in the post you are referring to (completely escaping the subject), were visible for several days, in any other situation this would even be subject to prosecution. By editing the messages later and deleting the replica, reforced to everyone who had already read this stigma that otbr is an untrusted repository. I'm not even going to go into the merits of rebutting the defamations, as they are in themselves unfounded and meaningless, nor would they deserve to be there, let alone be refuted.

Conclusion: In my opinion, moderation needs to speak "in only one language", precisely so that injustices are avoided and that malicious people do not use this "gap" to do what was done in the aforementioned post.
 
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I'm going to respond from a general point of view. I have not reviewed your reports and I'm not the one you rejected them.
I stand by @Znote 's earlier message.


I'm not even going to go into the merits of rebutting the defamations, as they are in themselves unfounded and meaningless, nor would they deserve to be there, let alone be refuted.
So you are saying that a post is spreading misinformation, you want it deleted but you're not going to explain why.
That is probably why your reports were rejected. You can either be part of the discussion and explain your side of the story, or not. There's not shortcut to just get things deleted because you believe they are wrong, even if you are right.

Unless a post is using inappropriate language, breaking other rules or clearly malicious, even wrong accusations are part of a discussion. I have come across completely made up accusations against myself or my services in the past. I do not remove them, I either respond or not. Sometimes I don't respond because they are so obviously made up, nobody would believe them. Just because something is written on the Internet does not mean it's true.
 
I'm going to respond from a general point of view. I have not reviewed your reports and I'm not the one you rejected them.
I stand by @Znote 's earlier message.



So you are saying that a post is spreading misinformation, you want it deleted but you're not going to explain why.
That is probably why your reports were rejected. You can either be part of the discussion and explain your side of the story, or not. There's not shortcut to just get things deleted because you believe they are wrong, even if you are right.

Unless a post is using inappropriate language, breaking other rules or clearly malicious, even wrong accusations are part of a discussion. I have come across completely made up accusations against myself or my services in the past. I do not remove them, I either respond or not. Sometimes I don't respond because they are so obviously made up, nobody would believe them. Just because something is written on the Internet does not mean it's true.

I never asked to delete the post, I reported the defamatory comment (which was even edited by staff later).
And if everything was fine with what was there, why was it closed and erased or edited? I repeat, did the off-topic rule only apply to me at that time?

And again here it seems to me that there is a contradiction with what the staff itself says. You're saying something totally different from the response znote gave in the post itself.

#Edit
I'll fill you in what happened: I denounced the guy comment saying that we put bugs in the repository on purpose and other unnecessary and nasty stuff. I snapped (look, I just commented because his comment was off topic too). I made it very clear in my comment (I even apologized for straying from the subject) that I would accept that the comment was deleted, PROVIDED that the comment I replied was also deleted. Then a problem came in, as they only erased mine, demonstrating partiality. I only made an off-topic comment because I saw the need to reply to another off-topic comment defaming our project and us (otbr team). Why delete just one?
 
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So you are saying that a post is spreading misinformation, you want it deleted but you're not going to explain why.
The deletion was asked from the staff, it was reject for being "compliant" with the rules. But once I reply the misinformation my post is considered off-topic even when the matter is CLEARLY pertinent to the topic discussion?
How are you going to discuss 12.x development without the MAIN repository and contributors for 12.x content?
You can either be part of the discussion and explain your side of the story, or not.
This is the part where we need to ensure. Znote carefully edited all comments that were attacking other projects, but mine that was much more focused in aligning the different opinions in my plan for moving forward was completely erased from the existence. Anyone who did not read my reply will keep in mind the last posts, spreading misinformation about other repositories.

I have come across completely made up accusations against myself or my services in the past. I do not remove them, I either respond or not. Sometimes I don't respond because they are so obviously made up, nobody would believe them. Just because something is written on the Internet does not mean it's true.
That's the part you don't understand, and that's ok. Nobody needs to know everything but what we have been facing here is basically a situation where several "authorities" of the community are using their positions to enforce a negative message towards otbr. @Evil Puncker himself was working with us in the past, he dropped the project after a disagreement on the future of the project (move to revscript). Later, everything on TFS moved to revscript too. Which makes sense, but for him didn't.
I don't know in which point afterwards he suddenly got "inside information" that people were keeping things for themselves and introducing bugs. Strangely when I questioned him of doing the same he got all defensive. Apparently doing the same thing wasn't enough for him to understand we need to have data/information to back our claims.

Stop allowing users to bash other repositories for no reason, the same thing happened even to Saiyans and the guy literally made optimizations that would NEVER happen even if we still had Mark around. I've seen a lot of mid-low ranked users spreading messages they heard from TFS Devs such as "Don't use optimized tfs, it has some bugs and is not compatible" or "otbr makes more updates at cost of stability, they just approve everything".
As any other open source project, well, EVEN TFS, we rely on contributors of any kind: testers, reviewers, coders, maintainers..
We have people that are literally having their first contacts with programming in this project. They propose change, we review and test.
Unit testing don't always catch everything, plus, sometimes a change has a large testing complexity that isn't feasible at all to cover all cases.

We could be spreading all over the forum that Mark was dumb to not decouple the classes and introduce testing and regression in classes. Does this makes sense instead of being thankful for all the work he have done? Isn't the project open for anyone to want to contribute and fix/improve anything? That's the part that despite some people telling me "I understand", I just feel that they can't.

Now back to the original discussion, what can we do to come in terms with the rules of the forum and have a friendly place for fruitful discussions? I feel like I'm stepping in eggs sometimes because rules aren't clear and each moderator has it's own understand (and bias) towards some members here. If you say this won't be able to be achieved here, we will move to other places where we have such freedom to debate and question when things aren't looking right.
 
I'm going to respond from a general point of view. I have not reviewed your reports and I'm not the one you rejected them.
I stand by @Znote 's earlier message.



So you are saying that a post is spreading misinformation, you want it deleted but you're not going to explain why.
That is probably why your reports were rejected. You can either be part of the discussion and explain your side of the story, or not. There's not shortcut to just get things deleted because you believe they are wrong, even if you are right.

Unless a post is using inappropriate language, breaking other rules or clearly malicious, even wrong accusations are part of a discussion. I have come across completely made up accusations against myself or my services in the past. I do not remove them, I either respond or not. Sometimes I don't respond because they are so obviously made up, nobody would believe them. Just because something is written on the Internet does not mean it's true.
I've been following this for a while now and I've seen members attacking both here on the forum and on the tfs github. It's been happening for a while and any attempts to reply back are marked as "off-topic" and warns are given to the people involved.

You said you didn't saw the reports and I don't understand how you get into a discussion without understanding the bare basics of what the fight is...
Eduardo published the prints and those reports plus the removed/editted comments were erased evidence.
 
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I just want to say: stop handing warnings and censoring users unless they resort to vulgar insults or death threats. No one except for staff wants to live in a bubble. Everybody was venting in that thread and heated discussion was about to cool off but clearing the thread added oil to the fire.

All three repos are necessary for the development. There's no better/worse repo. They fill a different niche and complete (not compete) each other.

Bugs in optimized tfs are a result of numerous reworks that didn't had enough testing/reporting. Bugs in otbr repos happen from oversights, but guess what? This is also the case for tfs too. No one introduces bugs on purpose. The pull requests are being reviewed but oversights happen to everyone. Remember when you weren't able to shoot wall runes diagonally in tfs because the code was optimized? Happens, but this kind of things isn't done on purpose.

Regarding "paid fixes"... just report the bug. Ask in support board. You don't have to spend a cent.
 
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1635487497373.png

Meanwhile in their normal english chat at OTBR Discord (and i'm skipping most insults from the OTBR staff to otland and TFS itself), i don't want to flame but OTBR organization is a bit hypocrite when it comes to claim about who should be banned, sorry guys, this isn't your discord where you insult and you call dumb everyone when you are at a bad mood.

OTBR is a meme, but a bad one and @zbizu is also being hypocrite on this thread now, he hates to have people selling edits but you allow what otbr does, selling them and redistributing them to their donator community (obviously they doesn't want bad advertisement as is their main source of income), if not, ask @joriku that wants to be donator of otbr soon.

1635487836920.png
Maybe zbizu is getting paid by them now?
 
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1. Night Wolf posted here as a person, about his own posts, not on behalf of entire OTBR.

2. I didn't say anything about me hating "paid fixes". I'm just saying that if you have a problem, you don't have to spend a single cent on it because support board is a thing and you can get free help there.

3. I don't know anything of them selling anything. Their rules state clearly that they forbid this kind of behaviour. See here: https://forums.otserv.com.br/index.php?/guidelines/
Code:
5.3 - É vetado a usuários a comercialização de qualquer objeto físico ou virtual por dinheiro real (qualquer moeda nacional ou internacional). Esta regra é vigente em todo o fórum, não havendo exceções.

Code:
5.3 - Users are prohibited from selling any physical or virtual object for real money (any national or international currency). This rule is in effect throughout the forum, with no exceptions.

4. You can leave a discord server if you don't want to be in it.

5.
Maybe zbizu is getting paid by them now?
Man, I wish. I'm getting tired of pushing 6 years worth of coding in 7 days and being ignored when decisions are made.
 
View attachment 63158

Meanwhile in their normal english chat at OTBR Discord (and i'm skipping most insults from the OTBR staff to otland and TFS itself), i don't want to flame but OTBR organization is a bit hypocrite when it comes to claim about who should be banned, sorry guys, this isn't your discord where you insult and you call dumb everyone when you are at a bad mood.

OTBR is a meme, but a bad one and @zbizu is also being hypocrite on this thread now, he hates to have people selling edits but you allow what otbr does, selling them and redistributing them to their donator community (obviously they doesn't want bad advertisement as is their main source of income), if not, ask @joriku that wants to be donator of otbr soon.

View attachment 63159
Maybe zbizu is getting paid by them now?
And did you notice that the criticisms made in the disagreement by those who are commenting here are also made here? No need to print anything, the post is just to talk about the staff.

As I said earlier and I'll repeat, some things shouldn't even be responsed because they just don't make sense. Saying a public repository adds issues? Go follow the work. Help, contribute. Do something useful, instead of pointing the finger and criticizing (you doesn't even have the right, as is a person who is only good for getting in trouble and talking bad). Once you've done, helped with something or contributed something relevant, maybe I'll consider your opinion as valid and can get into a serious discussion with you (if I can take you seriously).
Accuse people of something you do and want to call others a hypocrite? Patience, brother! You must be one of those with an elbow pain because otbr's OPEN SOURCE projects harmed your business.
 
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And did you notice that the criticisms made in the disagreement by those who are commenting here are also made here? No need to print anything, the post is just to talk about the staff.

As I said earlier and I'll repeat, some things shouldn't even be responsed because they just don't make sense. Saying a public repository adds issues? Go follow the work. Help, contribute. Do something useful, instead of pointing the finger and criticizing (you doesn't even have the right, as is a person who is only good for getting in trouble and talking bad). Once you've done, helped with something or contributed something relevant, maybe I'll consider your opinion as valid and can get into a serious discussion with you (if I can take you seriously).
Accuse people of something you do and want to call others a hypocrite? Patience, brother! You must be one of those with an elbow pain because otbr's OPEN SOURCE projects harmed your business.
As I said on the other post, hopefully TFS will be bigger and better, otbr is actually dead🤣

Also which business? I can't reveal that you got a donators section because I will be called a competitor or that I'm selling something? Just check your discord 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Otland will be supporting otbr when they are clearly calling the staff dumb and they are insulting the administration everyday?
 
There is no "donation session". Do you call sales donation? Donate whoever wants to, no one is obliged to donate or participate in the discord. What do you do there if your only intention is to speak ill? This little gossip of yours doesn't stick, boy, everyone is seeing this embarrassment you're going through. "Don't throw pearls at the pigs."

Have a good time, be a better person, toxicity is not good!
 

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