DeepSeek - China's new AI outperforms ChatGPT. The stock market is crashing

[222222]

So everyone has been hyping up American tech companies for a long time now. And ever since ChatGPT was released, everyone of them has been investing tens/hundreds of billions into AI. And just recently, China released its AI called "DeepSeek". Not only is it free and open source, but it outperforms ChatGPT. It took 40 Chinese engineers 2 months to build it. The total cost was $6 million USD. Meanwhile OpenAI's CEO is trying to raise trillions of dollars. DeepSeek runs on way cheaper hardware than anything we've seen in AI before. It can run on your phone & computer, completely offline too. It's insane.

This is huge!

It looks like Nvidia (NVDA) is about to drop -16%. The market is opening in a few minutes. This will be interesting to see. It's expected to be a trillion dollar wipeout on the market.

Everyone in Europe and North America keeps trying to block China's technological advancement, but this can't be ignored. And they can not ban an open source AI. It's about time that Europe becomes closer to China, not the opposite. There's always a ton of propaganda from both sides. But if you ignore all that and just compare China to USA, it's clear that China is years ahead in the tech space. If you go on a trip to China for a week and come back to US/EU, it's like going back 20 years in time. It's insane.

How will this change AI and AGI development going forward?

Post automatically merged: Jan 27, 2025

Just read what OpenAI published a few days ago on Twitter/X:

https://x.com/OpenAI/status/1881830103858172059

Announcing The Stargate Project

The Stargate Project is a new company which intends to invest $500 billion over the next four years building new AI infrastructure for OpenAI in the United States. We will begin deploying $100 billion immediately. This infrastructure will secure American leadership in AI, create hundreds of thousands of American jobs, and generate massive economic benefit for the entire world. This project will not only support the re-industrialization of the United States but also provide a strategic capability to protect the national security of America and its allies.

The initial equity funders in Stargate are SoftBank, OpenAI, Oracle, and MGX. SoftBank and OpenAI are the lead partners for Stargate, with SoftBank having financial responsibility and OpenAI having operational responsibility. Masayoshi Son will be the chairman.

Arm, Microsoft, NVIDIA, Oracle, and OpenAI are the key initial technology partners. The buildout is currently underway, starting in Texas, and we are evaluating potential sites across the country for more campuses as we finalize definitive agreements.

As part of Stargate, Oracle, NVIDIA, and OpenAI will closely collaborate to build and operate this computing system. This builds on a deep collaboration between OpenAI and NVIDIA going back to 2016 and a newer partnership between OpenAI and Oracle.

This also builds on the existing OpenAI partnership with Microsoft. OpenAI will continue to increase its consumption of Azure as OpenAI continues its work with Microsoft with this additional compute to train leading models and deliver great products and services.

All of us look forward to continuing to build and develop AI—and in particular AGI—for the benefit of all of humanity. We believe that this new step is critical on the path, and will enable creative people to figure out how to use AI to elevate humanity.

Well, that project is essentially useless at this point if DeepSeek outperforms ChatGPT for free. This will be interesting to see over the next coming weeks. This is truly one of the biggest technological advancements in recent times. This means that companies all over the world can start using and building their own AI models for free, and it runs on very cheap hardware.

 

[Codinablack]

Well, that project is essentially useless at this point if DeepSeek outperforms ChatGPT for free.

Way off base with that statement. Stargate is a project aimed at AGI and a single "well performing" chat ai doesn't effect that project in even the slightest (despite everyone acting like it does), AGI is not at all going to be bound by the constraints of "GPT's"

Furthermore, many believe this to be a "Psyop" from china, to try to further disrupt the US economy (as they have been doing for over a decade now in various forms), and that there is absolutely no proof what-so-ever that they achieved what they achieved using only a fraction of the cost that it took OpenAI. If you believe this propaganda, I have an island that I own and would like to sell you for a fraction of the cost it took me to buy it

Now, aside from the speculation, DeepSeek can be a VERY good thing for the rest of the world, and it indeed does disrupt the value of Nvidia, as well as all other AI related technologies in a very big way, because now there is an actual viable free option in the way of chat AI's... its not just viable, but apparently its pretty impressive with they rankings it has gotten already... I believe the MOE factor plays a huge part here for how well its performing...

The fact that this well performing and actual usable ai is small AND free means really big impact on the AI economy right now... this makes it so that millions if not billions more people have access to a top tier AI chat bot, which will indeed hurt everyone else's pocket, but its a great thing, as it's going to help diversify the money, rather than it just all keep flooding OpenAI's bank account..

 

[222222]

Way off base with that statement. Stargate is a project aimed at AGI and a single "well performing" chat ai doesn't effect that project in even the slightest (despite everyone acting like it does), AGI is not at all going to be bound by the constraints of "GPT's"

Furthermore, many believe this to be a "Psyop" from china, to try to further disrupt the US economy (as they have been doing for over a decade now in various forms), and that there is absolutely no proof what-so-ever that they achieved what they achieved using only a fraction of the cost that it took OpenAI. If you believe this propaganda, I have an island that I own and would like to sell you for a fraction of the cost it took me to buy it

Now, aside from the speculation, DeepSeek can be a VERY good thing for the rest of the world, and it indeed does disrupt the value of Nvidia, as well as all other AI related technologies in a very big way, because now there is an actual viable free option in the way of chat AI's... its not just viable, but apparently its pretty impressive with they rankings it has gotten already... I believe the MOE factor plays a huge part here for how well its performing...

The fact that this well performing and actual usable ai is small AND free means really big impact on the AI economy right now... this makes it so that millions if not billions more people have access to a top tier AI chat bot, which will indeed hurt everyone else's pocket, but its a great thing, as it's going to help diversify the money, rather than it just all keep flooding OpenAI's bank account..

Hi,

I'm getting quite tired of the "western" mindset that "If China produces something it must be bad, a psyop, yadda yadda...". There's propaganda coming from both sides. And for anyone living outside China (which includes you), we're all targeted by far more propaganda and psyop from the US. OpenAI (which is not open at all) has many flaws. For example, their service is overpriced meanwhile it heavily censors a lot of topics you ask it. Any AI web service is going to have filters, but since DeepSeek came out there's an influx of "Tiananmen square" memes, and talks on how it censors it. Yet people forget that OpenAI (ClosedAI) does the same thing.

Furthermore, it wasn't long ago Altman was looking to raise $7 trillion USD to further develop OpenAI. Now the Stargate project is looking for $500 billion. The numbers are all over the place. And there's no evidence that all of this money is necessary, or that all of it goes towards AI. It's an insane amount of money. A lot of people are now rightfully questioning those numbers and believe it may be tax evasion, greed and even money laundering. If it wasn't for DeepSeek (or any other open source AI that is coming out on the market), the world would only rely on a handful of American companies' AI, which they control 100% of in terms of filtering content and pricing model. Now that opens up to a ton of corruption to say the least.

I'm certain that project Stargate won't take off. It's projected to take many years and hundreds of billions. You simply can't predict where we are in 4-5 years, the industry has moved way too quickly. China has proved that Microsoft and their friends are not the only ones capable of building these types of things. And the US already have way to much control over IT infrastructure in the world. I'm rooting for China and others here. Competition is good. We can not afford to have monopolies in AI. I'm currently working on setting up DeepSeek locally, completely offline. The fact that I'm able to do that is incredible. OpenAI, Microsoft, and the others would never allow that to happen.

I'm shocked people still believe the US is doing the world a favor by allowing these trillion dollar American companies control everything you do online. In my opinion, they are far worse than China. Most people, including you, are not even slightly affected by China on the web. The fact that people are giving them shit for releasing a truly open source AI, for free to the public, meanwhile trillion dollar companies in the US are trying to raise trillions to further develop closed AI models which will bump up in price (they love the subscription model) is wild. That's nothing but pure American propaganda brainwashing. Realize that neither US or China is perfect. But who's slowing down the development the most? Who's the most greedy one? Who's the one that controls almost all of the internet? It's certainly not China. Now watch the orange man try stop DeepSeek's open source AI. Banana republic. The US is the enemy here, not China.

 

[Codinablack]

At the end of the day, no matter how much you are "tired" of my mindset or others who are from the "west", it doesn't change the fact that there is still zero proof what so ever that china actually accomplished deepseek with only a few million, and if you are foolish enough to take them at their word when they are straight up refusing to provide proof, well then my friend, that is what we call gullible.

As for Stargate not taking off... I don't see 500 BILLION USD going into a project that "doesn't take off"..

I was actually attempting to be a part of a civilized conversation but I can see right now that my perspective has quite clearly "tilted" you, and I'm not really down for spending a bunch of time going back and forth with someone who gets so upset about another persons perspective so quickly, especially when both of us are merely speculating, what will be, will be.

 

[Night Wolf]

I had that exact same discussion today at work with a so called "emerging technology expert". Is beyond me how people from US (yes, don't say westerns because I don't see anyone outside US saying those stupidities) cannot believe the model was trained with 6M. Do you think Microsoft, Google, Meta and OpenAI would give credits to this discovery if this wasn't the case? Do you think the fucking president would give a press statement if this wasn't true?
We are talking here about a team of hyper hacking experts that manage to basically bypass CUDA and work directly with assembly-like code. Using less powerful GPUs and sweating the asset.
This is not coming from communist party, it's not chinese government. It's a mutual fund sponsoring a side project.

Now, anything else you say about biases, information, how this was retrieve is just pure hypocrisy considering OpenAI is still being sued for copyright using work of everyone else to feed it's model. Those folks only care about their pockets and rewritting the social contract. We have an open source model, with a very intuitive and explainable paper talking about all crazy innovations they did compared with other known models. A model you can download, train yourself or utilize the pre-trained version they released. For free. Entirely open source.
You can download and run it in a raspeberry without connection to internet.

Post automatically merged: Jan 30, 2025

I'll add a few videos here from famous communicators of computer science so you guys can get informed before proceeding to comment about something you have no understanding of:

 

[Codinablack]

cannot believe the model was trained with 6M

I'm still waiting for the proof.

Moving past that part of the discussion rather than act like ignorant fools arguing over something none of us actually know to be true or false....

This project still in no way threatens Stargate, nor would it cause the $500 billion dollar contract to just be cancelled or "not take off"... This is happening, DeepSeek or not, Stargate is going to continue, and if you feel like arguing against that as well, well then I'll just unsubscribe to this thread and move forward with my life....

I have already admitted DeepSeek has huge implications, especially on the AI market, and I personally believe this to be a good thing as I see it helping to diversify profits gained in the AI market, rather than it always remain the same four companies taking more than the majority of the pie.
I think that this conversation would be better aimed at such discussion, rather than dispute what is and isn't "propaganda" or false statements.

I'm not going to watch 6 videos of hours of other people giving their OPINION about deepseek, no thanks. Already spent at least a couple hours doing research myself, and I'm not really interested in the overplayed click bait..

TLDR; DeepSeek is huge, but not no where near as big of a revelation or game changer as the world is making it out to be; That, and the fact that it is completely free (according to thread title, its "crashing stock market"), are the reasons people are making claims like "psyops" or "propaganda"... either way, it for sure changes things, but definitely won't stop Stargate from happening.

Do you think the fucking president would give a press statement if this wasn't true?

Uhm you don't need to curse at me... but are you so certain that some (china based) company's president wouldn't make a false statement like that?

Because its completely unheard of for "companies" to make false statements, or for a government to force or "persuade" a company to make false statements... right?

 

[Night Wolf]

I'm still waiting for the proof.

contrary to your beliefs, no one needs to prove you anything lol did you asked Sam Altman to sit right beside you and explain in details how he would be using his 4T? No, right?

But it's easy to see how this model can be at least 10x cheaper just by the way they run/train it. The guys trained in Nvidia but they are running the model in Huawei cards, they also run it on M1 chips. If instead of 100k GPU clusters you're using 3k servers, it's easy to see how this can scales in economy.

This project still in no way threatens Stargate

Yes, I never said it would. If anything it justifies it. They will want to double down the investment to try and keep up - which won't be hard since China still has bans and the model is open source so they should be able to replicate it.

I'm not going to watch 6 videos of hours of other people giving their OPINION

It's not 6 people giving opinion, the first 2 are experts (doctorates) explaining the model and how it can achieve a lower cost.
The third is the prime time, a highly skilled programmer debating the impacts for likes of him.
The rest are news analysis from Fireship, a technology expert.

You are giving your opinion, those are among the most credible analysis you have out there doing an in-depth analysis of the technologial and world impacts.

game changer as the world is making it out to be

of course is a game changer, up until this moment to train a model was something only bilionaires could dream to do. This brings back the power to medium business and institutes. With a university budget we could think about having your own model instead of enriching OpenAI.

If you were thinking straight, that means that now we are really going to have a fair competition (I mean, until you can actually compete with Microsoft to get your piece of Stargate )

That, and the fact that it is completely free (according to thread title, its "crashing stock market"), are the reasons people are making claims like "psyops" or "propaganda"

So, again, Nvidia developed a bunch of open source models. So did Meta and Google. Of course it has impacts on economy especially when it's an immense breakthrough. Does that means that those companies have shady intentions or are backed by US Government to disrupt global economy?

People read the terms of service (ToS) and saw the prompts could be send to the company, including the government, and panicked.
"China is evil, here's the proof", they say. Should we tell those people how much data Facebook shares with the US government?
Calling it propaganda because model has a layer of restriction to limit some questions? OpenAI has fair many restrictions. So does every single model released so far.

 

[Codinablack]

of course is a game changer, up until this moment to train a model was something only bilionaires could dream to do. This brings back the power to medium business and institutes. With a university budget we could think about having your own model instead of enriching OpenAI.

I'm not gonna go back and forth with you if you are just gonna take things out of context, I have clearly stated now 3 times that DeepSeek is a major thing... but to complete that sentence you butchered by completely taking out of context to argue "DeepSeek is huge, but not no where near as big of a revelation or game changer as the world is making it out to be"

That means I'm saying its big, just not as big as a deal as something like OP said, where it will be stopping a project such as Stargate... and there is another place you chose to argue for no reason.. I never said you said anything about stargate, I was talking in context to the thread, just because I quote one thing you say and respond to it doesn't make my entire post directed at you, clearly if you said nothing about stargate then I wasn't talking to you about it... I don't have energy to spend on letting people provoke me into getting upset when they twist my words for the benefit of their feeling "mentally" or "intellectually" superior... get your rocks off else where bro, I'm unsubscribed and moving on, clearly this is not a place where well rounded individuals can debate implications without getting into their feelings and trying to go to war about it.

 

[222222]

At the end of the day, no matter how much you are "tired" of my mindset or others who are from the "west", it doesn't change the fact that there is still zero proof what so ever that china actually accomplished deepseek with only a few million, and if you are foolish enough to take them at their word when they are straight up refusing to provide proof, well then my friend, that is what we call gullible.

As for Stargate not taking off... I don't see 500 BILLION USD going into a project that "doesn't take off"..

I was actually attempting to be a part of a civilized conversation but I can see right now that my perspective has quite clearly "tilted" you, and I'm not really down for spending a bunch of time going back and forth with someone who gets so upset about another persons perspective so quickly, especially when both of us are merely speculating, what will be, will be.

You know it's possible to replicate DeepSeek, right? They have been very transparent with how they did this. And so far, people who are experts in the AI field says the numbers are correct. It's perhaps not $5.6 million, time will tell when everyone has had time to make a replica. But it's not looking to be more than $10 million USD. Which is a huge difference to Altman's billions and billions.

Regarding Stargate, Satya Nadella has already called everyone in to an emergency meeting. It's not looking bright for Stargate's future. They will have to rethink and rebudget everything now. I don't see how they can justify $500 billion now that China has come up with ways to do this for much less.

We are having a civilized conversation. You have not "tilted" me in any way. You're however coming at this with the same closed mind that "China make, China bad!!!!".

What I'm saying is: China's DeepSeek is open source, and they have included every little detail you may need to replicate their work. People all over the world are now testing it out. I'd rather wait for the AI experts to finish their research and work. In a few days we will see reports whether those $5.6 million was true or not. So far, it seems possible. So we're not talking about any multi-billion dollar amounts, like the American tech companies are doing. And this is huge for the industry.

Competition is good. And this time, their competitor did not just make an AI that in some cases even outperforms ChatGPT, but they did it transparently and open source. If there's anyone here who seems upset it's you.

DeepSeek has done more for the world than OpenAI has. And the numbers are NOT in the billions, that's for sure already. None of us are true AI experts (at least I do not think anyone on OtLand is). But looking at what industry leading experts are saying, who are currently trying to replicate DeepSeek, it's not even $10 million USD. So DeepSeek's numbers looks to be accurate. But time will tell. I think in a few days, we will see news articles about it. Alibaba also came out with their AI now. It's moving forward fast and I think we will see a lot of new things unfold in the next coming weeks.

Altman and his friends trying to raise trillions is an absolute laughing stock at the moment. And now they are all over the news trying to blame DeepSeek for training with their data. Data which they stole from the public. Altman, Microsoft, etc. are a joke. Now let's leave this to the experts in the fields and see how things pan out over the next coming weeks.

 

[Codinablack]

You're however coming at this with the same closed mind that "China make, China bad!!!!".

Lies! Outright and outlandish lies!





I have clearly stated I believe DeepSeek to be a good thing... so tell me again, who is being single minded about this conversation?

You can both stop quoting me now, I'm done responding to this thread, deuces!

 

[Night Wolf]

View attachment 89872

I'm not gonna go back and forth with you if you are just gonna take things out of context, I have clearly stated now 3 times that DeepSeek is a major thing... but to complete that sentence you butchered by completely taking out of context to argue "DeepSeek is huge, but not no where near as big of a revelation or game changer as the world is making it out to be"

That means I'm saying its big, just not as big as a deal as something like OP said, where it will be stopping a project such as Stargate... and there is another place you chose to argue for no reason.. I never said you said anything about stargate, I was talking in context to the thread, just because I quote one thing you say and respond to it doesn't make my entire post directed at you, clearly if you said nothing about stargate then I wasn't talking to you about it... I don't have energy to spend on letting people provoke me into getting upset when they twist my words for the benefit of their feeling "mentally" or "intellectually" superior... get your rocks off else where bro, I'm unsubscribed and moving on, clearly this is not a place where well rounded individuals can debate implications without getting into their feelings and trying to go to war about it.

OP got too excited for his own good, I'm just replying you directly since I noticed your opinion is very similar to a lot of people on internet.
No stones throwed, I'm just trying to present a different point of view. Don't get me wrong, I'm not naive to think governments or companies have halos above their heads and only think of how they can improve life of workers around the world. I just don't think people are being rational in their arguments (not you especifically).

We are all devs here right? Imagine a guy is using a bugged TFS 0.2 that consumes a bunch of ram cause is lacking optimizations. In their head, he needs a 64gb ram machine and the cost is quite high. Then you have someone like fabian who optimized the engine and now can host the server in a potato buried in the ground. The scale of cost is absurd. This entirely shifts the mindset because now those tech companies will be forced to rethink their architectures (and justify to investors their high capex expenses).

 

[222222]

You got mad because I said China is doing better than the US when it comes to AI.

You're asking "Where's the proof?!!", well, DeepSeek has been very transparent on how they did it. And experts in the field are currently testing it, as we speak. In a matter of days or weeks, we will have the exact numbers. DeepSeek claimed $5.6 million USD. And so far experts all over the world don't think it's much more than that. But until they are done testing, we will have to wait and see.

I'd like you to provide proof that $7 trillion USD (Altman's numbers) is necessary to further develop AI and AGI. Or even "just" the $500 billion USD that the Stargate project is looking for. You're coming here with a tunnel vision and all you see is "China is lying!".

But where's the proof from OpenAI, Microsoft and others?! Where's all that money going?! Show me the numbers! They have been in business for years now. Show us the numbers! But they won't, because they are closed - not open.

At the end of the day: With DeepSeek we can get exact numbers. With OpenAI we can not. Only that should tell you who you should trust.

I'll leave this discussion now until we have the exact numbers. I don't have time arguing with people who can't handle the fact that another country is doing better than their own. That's an absolute joke dude. DS is fully open sourced and showed everything in detail regarding how you and anyone else can replicate it. There is your proof.

"Chinese psyop!" pffft..... my ass.

 

[Tofame]

Thanks for sharing.
I've been using GPT 3.5 for a while, as I didnt want to buy premium access, and I think so far DeepSeek is easily outperforming free gpt.
With so many users wanting to try it, its a bit overloaded though.

 

[JeiDi]

Thanks for sharing.
I've been using GPT 3.5 for a while, as I didnt want to buy premium access, and I think so far DeepSeek is easily outperforming free gpt.
With so many users wanting to try it, its a bit overloaded though.

Just download and run it locally

 

[Kotami Ocza]

7b deepseek-r1 working flawless on 3050ti wooden lapton gpu card, checked it yesterday, everyone can obtain it via ollama

 

[Mateus Robeerto]

 

[222222]

I've been using DeepSeek for a few days locally now and I'm really impressed with it. This will be a game-changer for my businesses. Now that we have open source AI, I think we'll see tremendous amount of improvements over the next coming months. The R&D is going so quick with AI, it's amazing.