• There is NO official Otland's Discord server and NO official Otland's server list. The Otland's Staff does not manage any Discord server or server list. Moderators or administrator of any Discord server or server lists have NO connection to the Otland's Staff. Do not get scammed!

Some thoughts on the community openness direction

I find it funny that some people have read thousands of lines and arguments but still think I'm crying because I can't do what Kondra did.
Guys, the whole point is not about one person doing everything. We have different segments, different skills.
My server won't be as good as it could if I just fix everything myself, and worst, it will suck years of my life where I could be actually learning other skills more relevant to my professional life such as management, user experience, marketing and public dealing.

I could do literally whatever I want, even writting a whole client from scratch. The point is: how much energy it would take? How many years? And what would happen when I left? Will it be all in vain?

For me @edubart contribution of even thinking about developing a client is a milestone in it's own, yet he might have succeed in learning what he wanted but he failed to understand the public he was developing for and the flow of software development itself. Things are getting more and more less technical and not about 'do you know how to code this' but rather about, do you understand this logic and know how's to use google? We even can see that by Github and IEEE reports regarding most used programming languages or even at Hype Cycle trends such as the ones Gartner usually do.
This way you're not anymore talking about a community that only devs with a single skill can work to improve, but rather a whole community of different people with different jobs and skills can use their logic to build something great.

My opinion personally as someone who works in a fortune 70's company:
OTC: Few people understand it's architecture and we have little to none documentation. Several parts were rushed and made with not optimal or state-of-art algorithms so even in Edubart's case, he learned how to do them, but not learned how to do them THE RIGHT WAY.
Only devs that actually take their time to study the code are able to contribute and 'leechers' as testers.

Unity: Several parts of really technical processing can be replaced by the engine's version that is made using state-of-art algorithms.
We wouldn't need only bacharelors in Computer Science and enthusiasts to contribute as they could simply read the docs and implementing improvements with the engine.
Way more intuitive and customizable, several documentations online including videos sometimes. We could take everyone's help to improve quality of documentation of the parts done by Slavi and help designing the architecture of the project to allow it to grow healthly.

Unity once builded drop any feature that isn't utilized, so the claims here that it would be 'heavier' or 'slower' are not true. It has also one option that makes it WAY MORE ATTRACTIVE that is the fact that you can't mess with the files once they are build. So sprites would be protected and messing with the server source through the client would be way harder.
 
I find it funny that some people have read thousands of lines and arguments but still think I'm crying because I can't do what Kondra did.
Guys, the whole point is not about one person doing everything. We have different segments, different skills.
My server won't be as good as it could if I just fix everything myself, and worst, it will suck years of my life where I could be actually learning other skills more relevant to my professional life such as management, user experience, marketing and public dealing.

I could do literally whatever I want, even writting a whole client from scratch. The point is: how much energy it would take? How many years? And what would happen when I left? Will it be all in vain?

For me @edubart contribution of even thinking about developing a client is a milestone in it's own, yet he might have succeed in learning what he wanted but he failed to understand the public he was developing for and the flow of software development itself. Things are getting more and more less technical and not about 'do you know how to code this' but rather about, do you understand this logic and know how's to use google? We even can see that by Github and IEEE reports regarding most used programming languages or even at Hype Cycle trends such as the ones Gartner usually do.
This way you're not anymore talking about a community that only devs with a single skill can work to improve, but rather a whole community of different people with different jobs and skills can use their logic to build something great.

My opinion personally as someone who works in a fortune 70's company:
OTC: Few people understand it's architecture and we have little to none documentation. Several parts were rushed and made with not optimal or state-of-art algorithms so even in Edubart's case, he learned how to do them, but not learned how to do them THE RIGHT WAY.
Only devs that actually take their time to study the code are able to contribute and 'leechers' as testers.

Unity: Several parts of really technical processing can be replaced by the engine's version that is made using state-of-art algorithms.
We wouldn't need only bacharelors in Computer Science and enthusiasts to contribute as they could simply read the docs and implementing improvements with the engine.
Way more intuitive and customizable, several documentations online including videos sometimes. We could take everyone's help to improve quality of documentation of the parts done by Slavi and help designing the architecture of the project to allow it to grow healthly.

Unity once builded drop any feature that isn't utilized, so the claims here that it would be 'heavier' or 'slower' are not true. It has also one option that makes it WAY MORE ATTRACTIVE that is the fact that you can't mess with the files once they are build. So sprites would be protected and messing with the server source through the client would be way harder.

We also need a documentation to UIs
I'm not a frontend dev and i just dont know where to search to make otclients UIs
 
We also need a documentation to UIs
I'm not a frontend dev and i just dont know where to search to make otclients UIs
this so much

Last time I tried to write an otc module, I spent a couple of days on the otui itself because it just refused to display or align things the way I wanted. Without asking several people for help I wouldn't be able to do it at all. OTUI isn't as straightforward as luascript.cpp from tfs to figure things on my own so I got stuck on it. Writing the lua part of the module took me like 1/10 of that time to figure out. I don't know how the people who can actually code in that figured out things, but I envy them so much. If I knew otui as well as I know tfs lua functions I would write, it already.

Since it's not the main topic of this thread I suggest moving that OTUI discussion to edubart's repo (OTUI documentation · Issue #1081 · edubart/otclient (https://github.com/edubart/otclient/issues/1081))
 
Last edited:
I don't know how the people who can actually code in that figured out things, but I envy them so much
Everything is in src\framework\ui. Public methods that are in .h are available in Lua, it's not like in TFS where methods have to be registered.
 
Last edited:
this so much

Last time I tried to write an otc module, I spent a couple of days on the otui itself because it just refused to display or align things the way I wanted. Without asking several people for help I wouldn't be able to do it at all. OTUI isn't as straightforward as luascript.cpp from tfs to figure things on my own so I got stuck on it. Writing the lua part of the module took me like 1/10 of that time to figure out. I don't know how the people who can actually code in that figured out things, but I envy them so much. If I knew otui as well as I know tfs lua functions I would write, it already.

Since it's not the main topic of this thread I suggest moving that OTUI discussion to edubart's repo (OTUI documentation · Issue #1081 · edubart/otclient (https://github.com/edubart/otclient/issues/1081))
Did you ever used CSS? Its the same concept, not that hard. Its just a bit messy but you can figure it out by the way it works on CSS
 
My server won't be as good as it could if I just fix everything myself, and worst, it will suck years of my life where I could be actually learning other skills more relevant to my professional life such as management, user experience, marketing and public dealing.

I could do literally whatever I want, even writting a whole client from scratch. The point is: how much energy it would take? How many years? And what would happen when I left? Will it be all in vain?

Fml.. Are you expecting to get something done by others so you can use it on your server? Did you join the community for the free stuff so you dont spend extra hours on your project? Either you build a team for a project, or you do it yourself, if you are lucky enough you may be able to use free stuff, like OTC and TFS, see? you are very lucky, still you keep complaining, I get that you are pretty young, but bro.. this stinks so hard.

And you probably should be focusing on learning other skills if you want to live from it. An important word comes to mind - PRIORITIES
Either you make this your hobby which wont have any final purpose other than entertain you or you think on making money out of this, you just need to get your shit straight.

~Æronx
 
Willfully forcing duplicated effort is the gravest sin among our kind, did they not teach you that at that fancy college in Warsaw?
We don't have colleges in Poland.
Just saying.

It revolves around one person, we should end this topic and let it do what it wants until it demands money in the "open source" forum.
We, as a community, should create a Main OTC thread in which we will begin to solve OTC problems, throw solutions and improvements for all of us.
And show the others that strength is in the team and the whole community, not one person.
Hmmn.. replace 'OTC' with 'otservlist.org' and do some minor changes... still valid! 😅 Even more valid if you scroll down the forum.
A discussion board for the serverlist: otservlist.org. It is not affiliated with Otland in any way. But we like dictators so we do not support other server lists projects, and we like deals

wait, people don't want money? or the link is not known enough?
Or Otland stuff doesn't care and they want to skip that topic. Ah, someone already said that but I still want to post that haha
both
View attachment 44665 I told that this should be advertised somewhere in otland but administration don't want to hear me

do not use unity imo.. any reputable game company moves away from unity when weighing all aspects. Unity is a good starter engine to get into game development but not many high profile games use it and those who do use it realize its capabilities and know if it would be suited to their project or not.
Unity isnt best and you need a lot of resources or Unity-tailored project to make it works fine, but there are examples of some well done games in Unity (however, I dont think that OT community will achieve success in this matter).

Everyday I see a new game released in Unity I feel bad for seeing programmers potential being underdeveloped because they opted to use a ready engine so they could work faster. Really good games and game studios will always have an engine polished for themselves. If a developer really wants to use an engine I suggest him to always search for one that just have what is needed and being smaller the better, because with time he will have to dive in its sources to make improvements, changes and fixes.
I dont think that devs of those games feel bad: Pillars of Eternity, Ori and the Blind Forest, Kerbal Space Program 1/2, Cities: Skylines, Cuphead, Escape from Tarkov, Albion Online, Rimworld, Wasteland 3, Ori and the Will of the Wisps (just last few years). But as I said before, OT community won't handle it. There is too much things to edit to make it work properly.
 
Fml.. Are you expecting to get something done by others so you can use it on your server? Did you join the community for the free stuff so you dont spend extra hours on your project? Either you build a team for a project, or you do it yourself, if you are lucky enough you may be able to use free stuff, like OTC and TFS, see? you are very lucky, still you keep complaining, I get that you are pretty young, but bro.. this stinks so hard.

And you probably should be focusing on learning other skills if you want to live from it. An important word comes to mind - PRIORITIES
Either you make this your hobby which wont have any final purpose other than entertain you or you think on making money out of this, you just need to get your shit straight.

~Æronx
First of all, stop trying to make this about me because that's not the goal. I know it's a lot easier to question my person instead of my arguments but as I'm still seeing alot of misdirection and misunderstandment here, let me try to clarify who exactly I am (for the 10th time):
I've started in the community in 2007, always shared every single piece of code that reached my hand and was banned for several forums because of this. After a few very discouraging years I've quit to follow other pursuits in life and only got back after I entered the college, in late 2013.

Every class I had in college I teached in forums and every day I coded what I've learned in university in open tibia. My average statistics if you go to Tibia King is 3,7 scripts by day, every single day from the day I registered until the day I decided to quit. I've never had any interest in participating in a project but in 2016 I was invited to participate in a project that was very like me and I took this as an opportunity to start studying TFS 1.X codes to help even more people than I was doing already. In this project I had the chance to work with a totally beast programmer but he was so talented that quickly he left our project to move to sillicon valley to work as Software Engineer for Facebook. He encouraged me a lot to study competitive programming and for a year or 2 was what I did and I got really really really good at it, but by that time I was already 23 and couldn't compete anymore. I was also working with analytics and business inteligence and had 12 years of experience with Lua weighting on my back.

I always thought I would become a software engineering, but programming hasn't aged well for me and nowadays, being more mature I see that programming is only a tool to achieve a greater objetive, it can't be the goal. That's when I decided to initiate a machine learning master and where I started to see the bigger picture of how companies and things works. Jump to 2020, I'm working as a global coordinator for the biggest company in the segment using machine learning and analytics to predict and track outcome if the implementation of our projects will be successful or not.

From the history above we can already see that many of your claims are false:
I'm not expecting anyone to do anything for my server, I don't even need to have a server because this is a hobby for me. My goal is to achieve better things and improve tfs overall as a project. Having a server is just a way to contributing even more as also a tester.
I also didn't joined the community for free stuff, I joined to create even more things for free and if you browsed my topics correctly you would notice that, in my profile in the 'about me' tab you have all the single topic I have made and if you go from the first to the last you'll notice how I've improved as I learned. I had a team, in fact I still do but we all have the same point of view and our crew is basically the people that contribute the most in each of their area. (me as scripter, nolis as mapper and rick as webmaster).
I'm not complaining about the stuff that exists for free, but my coordinator side see many wasted potential here, specially considering those who are able to work together in order to achieve a greater goal but choose to waste their time working separately and not sharing.
There's literally nothing that can be said about me as person or my intentions here, I literally said that I'm included in the change I'm proposing, you're free to have a different point of view regarding my ideas of how should we all work together but I would kindly ask you to whenever you try to disbelief what I'm saying, that you consider doing it through strong and based argumentation.


TL;DR Version:
Profiles of community and how they would benefit of the approach I'm proposing:
  • Hardcore dev: cooping would allow him to focus in really the important parts of development and also have a strong feedback on the codes they are doing. Harcores would also have the opportunity to charge big prices for custom content and will have the support of people from the community as they are hardly improving the open source scenario as well.
  • Middle/Initial devs: split the job, learn more from hardcore devs and improve their skills as they help more and more the projects to be stable. Would be still be considered for freelacing and can use their contribution as portifolio or to have it in a resumé.
  • Otadmins: More stable bases, more complete 'base' project. A lot of work that have been done or bought (sometimes in a very poorly way) would be revised and improved to keep their server even better and less resource-demanding. Also if we start discussing tools and ways to protect against attack, the awareness of information security would go up and less and less we would have cases of 'ddos attacks'.
That would make mean more servers and more people being attracted to start their own custom version. The community will be flooded with ideas that would retro-feed criativity of devs and other otadmins.
- Players: having more options of good and custom projects would increase popularity of the community a lot and that means more players and consequently more money for those who do a good work out of it. They would be able to choose from broader options and consequently wouldn't leave community out of frustration because servers open, receive attacks and fall.

Is it clear enough now?
 
RE: Unity stuff
OTC is dead unless someone maintains it.
Edubart/Kondrah don't want to and it seems no one else here does either. So its dead(?)

The inefficiencies of using unity as a base is trumped by its commonality, more access to resources and tools etc etc
Might be more resistant to the entropy that lead us here (?)

RE: Cultural Shift
We're clearly in a rut (read this if you want an academic/philos description of the issues @edubart described in his original post)

But I personally don't see any way out without a massive disruption.
In an optimal world, otland should be involved in all three aspects of OTS;
  1. Front-end (Client/AccMaker)
  2. Back-end (Server)
  3. Marketing (Otservlist/Otland.net)
Meaning it should have:
  • Its own official accmaker (Znote's is effectively this)
  • Its own official code-base (TFS is this)
  • Its own official client (current drama)
  • Its own official otserv listing website (the advertising section of the forum is a bad version of this)
  • Its own official server (cough shadowcores)
    the otservbr developers don't actually run an official server based on their repo, that's probably the next spiritual successor to shadowcores
Solutions:

The otservbr project poses issues due to legality.
I personally would like @Mark to come out of the woodwork and conditionally release shadowcores

i.e. give it to the support staff or something to host an official server through @Don Daniello, demonetize it or make premium tied to otland donation subs or something that's not entirely evil.

The issues with otland are fundamental (mad boomer energy now that admins are retired/inactive).
There is a leadership vacuum for both the TFS/OTC repository and the Otland.net website, this is the space that allowed kondrah to exist and for otservbr-global to exist. We're all fanatical contributors without a benevolent leader, so we've sharded into smaller, weaker sub-communities.

The three pieces of OT - the front-end, back-end and market list are fractured to all fuck.
 
Last edited:
I don't think anyone here knows me, I always worked in the shadows and almost never used otland (so much so that I have a post about a doubt about vs). I would still like to give an opinion.

First of all sorry for my English, it is not good and I end up having to use Google Translate.

I have always worked more with Tibia derivatives than with Tibia itself. So over time I customized my game on top of TFS 0.4, then TFS 1.1 and now TFS 1.3 and I can't forget about OTC. My game was never more than a Beta, so I still haven't won a lot of money with it (in fact the money we got so far hasn't been for our wallet). But seeing the conversation of this topic and reflecting, my intention was never to help the community. I never made any contribution, whether in TFS or OTC, so I came to the conclusion of how much shit I am with that mentality. And I think everyone here has to do this reflection, I really don't want to be a leech anymore, if I use open source engines and earn some money from it I have a moral obligation to contribute back, if when I find a bug (which is what developers do spend time and more time on what you should spend less) and correct, why don't we do a PR on github instead of saving it to our server? I think that is the point that we all have to reflect, we have some people who really help, who contribute back, but not the majority. Just as there are people / games / companies that discover a bug that crashes a server / client and use it to earn money instead of helping the whole community. But who am I to criticize who does this? If so far I haven't done anything to help, then I think everyone has to do this reflection.

I highly agree that games should avoid engines that tries to conquer the world, such ones like Unity. Developers must know that they are paying a high price to use a engine that tries to be too flexible. Any game who uses such engines will be bloated and have efficiency issues due to the engine unused stuff and unneeded flexibility and in some cases higher complexity due to the engine flexibility and style. Developers who uses popular engines hidden themselves of too much valuable knowledge and access to the engine parts, this leads to games where have undesired consequences and issues that the developers can't handle well and becomes much harder to adapt such a complex engine to its goals. I can see why many game makers move away from them, its better to use something polished for your specific needs and just having things you use. Unity are good to prototype games fast and to introduce to the concept of game making, but in my opinion should not be used in end products. Developers need to learn how things work under the hood, that's is the best way to have software that can work without bugs, issues and efficiency. Anyone trying to make a game while skip learning how things work will always be at risk of ending up with undesired issues that can't be fixed by themselves because they never learned how things worked in first place, or even if they do learned the engine will take away some control.

Everyday I see a new game released in Unity I feel bad for seeing programmers potential being underdeveloped because they opted to use a ready engine so they could work faster. Really good games and game studios will always have an engine polished for themselves. If a developer really wants to use an engine I suggest him to always search for one that just have what is needed and being smaller the better, because with time he will have to dive in its sources to make improvements, changes and fixes.

Otclient for example at first I did implement using Qt, but did throw away the code in just a few weeks, with Qt the thing was turning in something with unwanted complexity, odd code style and heavy that made the coding experience not fun for me. So I implemented its own engine with just the piece it needed. Today Tibia itself implemented their own client with Qt and I find that funny. I don't think it's a good ideia, looks like for me they were just trying to rush or were out of good developers.

If every developer today start using engine like Unity, the developers of the future will be full of morons, and the games full of issues and limitations because morons will be unable to do anything better. For me is always better to pay the price of learning more how things work with more time, than to trying to rush and skip to end up with issues and limitations you can't handle.

Now answering that, I would first like to explain my enormous respect for you @edubart,
not only for what you did for the community, but also for the beautiful work on the Grand Lines Adventures client (at least they say that you developed for them, correct me if I'm wrong).

But I disagree with some of the things I said, based on your experience as a developer. Unity's proposal is to offer an engine not only for developers, but also for game designers, artists, etc. But that does not mean that it is limited as you think. I can even program natively, for example to do sprite rendering in C ++ if I don't like Unity's performance and I didn't want to wait for the optimization of the community / microsoft. In this case the limitation is to work with the minimum resource that the version of Unity requires, for example the last version requires OpenGL 3.2. Is Unity flexible? Yes, but I can do low-level things like you did with OTC, it's up to the developer to choose the level of flexibility they want. Today Slavi's OTU as he mentioned at the beginning of the post does not have an optimized FPS, because it was not the initial objective, but talking to him this would be a next step. Okay, but where do I want to go? This is a constant evolution, as they go on evolving, the tests, the bugs and so on. Or did you not face barriers during the development of OTC? There are good games made in Unity, big games, as well as several games developed more native and I almost have these games made in Unity, the programmers were not just in the comfort that Unity offers, they went further and know how things work hidden , it is not Unity that defines whether the programmer will have to worry about it or not, the programmer himself will know, or even before starting a project he already knows. So in my opinion, it is worth investing in developing a game with Unity, it is up to me to know what I can or cannot take advantage of it and also as you spoke in an answer, it is up to the developer to know what is comfortable for them, things evolve and I think Unity is a good evolution (and it's always evolving).

Just a finalization that doesn't have to do with what you said, but with some people in the community who compare OTC and OTU (I know you didn't compare, this really isn't for you). It is a meaningless comparison, how many years has OTC been since the beginning of development? 10 years? And the OTU? Only this period of maturation of the software makes the comparison meaningless. It doesn’t mean that OTU will one day be better than OTC, I don’t think it’s even the intention and doesn’t need this "war".
 
For Unity programmers and defenders I recommend watch and ponder this presentation of a very successful game developer and decades of wisdom.

Plus note, I wonder why the Unity client author looks to be active working on his own game engine in pure C++ at GitHub last days, since he has a lot of experience with Unity and could just use it. People here that doesn't have enough experience actually programming games from scratch should avoid pointing how others should have been making or should make a new game stuff from scratch.

Most here are throwing this discussion in the wrong direction. I was just trying to share some problems how the community is unable to incentive good open developers and trying to stop hate around something related to my past projects, also took chance to share some personal technical thoughts based on my experience that could be useful for some. But most here thinks is experienced enough to the point words from an old developer and contributor is useless or misguided, so I will just remain quiet and hope you all the best.
 
About OTU, i think the owner of that project has even worse mindset than kondrah, atleast otcv8 works great on potatoes infact better than old tibia client, OTU says fuck it to low end pcs because those users don't give any "profit" XDDD and other peoples saying aiming for 60 fps is good enough
puQeYun.png
 
About OTU, i think the owner of that project has even worse mindset than kondrah, atleast otcv8 works great on potatoes infact better than old tibia client, OTU says fuck it to low end pcs because those users don't give any "profit" XDDD and other peoples saying aiming for 60 fps is good enough
puQeYun.png
I'm with slavi on this one. It's god damn 2020, honestly, you can get pretty cheap PC nowadays and even play on OTC without FPS problem. Wasting resources on these guys that are living in medieval times...
 
I haven't read the latest posts but I think it interesting to see how mark used to think about this situation himself.

Read from this comment forward.

Even Mark got poked a bit from WibbenZ and BenDol, and that is why I'm not fully on any side here. Even mark kept things private and tbh rightfuly so. Just as kondra has the right to sell his stuff and keep somethings private, everyone does.

My points is solely this:

Why should mark or anyone else release all the stuff he worked on (bare in mind he did release some stuff at the end of last year), when there is literally no one releasing "good things" anymore? I'm not saying the people who are actively working on TFS are not doing a good job, I'm just saying that nothing that has been commited there for past few years would be as useful as any performance enhancement that mark did on shadowcores, for example. At what point would mark (and a few others, ofc) giving 100% and community giving 10% end?

I'm pretty sure a lot of people discussing on this thread, on both sides of the discussion have changes to TFS or OTC that would be really useful and have not shared it.

I'm also pretty sure the poeple who won't share things like that, don't do it because they know they won't get anything back, from people who used what they release or other, it doesn't matter. (don't come at me with things like, "this is an open community you should share not expecting anything back", well guess what? thats the whole point of open source, in this community there are very few people capable of contributing and all the rest is just here to download stuff.)

Take me for example, I think I was the first one to share my analysers code for tibia 11+ by the end of 2018 (now being used on otservbr-global without any recognition, idgf). I knew I'd come back 2 years later and there would be nothing new still, gues what? Nothing new. The only thing I asked on that post was for someone with good c++ knowledge to check the code and give some feedback. Guess what? no feedback.

I had done daily reward and some optimizations for 11+ protocol, OFC i couldn't commit on tfs because it is 10.98 but I never got around to share thoose because, well, what is the point? What is the point of Mark upadting TFS to newer protocols when in reality he would have to do it all by himself. People only want things done, no one wants to do it. No one wants to implement new version stuff on otclient so that tfs can update, so I see why TFS development has been stuck.
 
Last edited:
@Ahilphino Mention me next time you wanna have a clear answer :)
I have an old PC (back to 2011 IIRC) with 2008 GPU (ATI Radeon 2400 HD). Guess what, it supports ogl 3.3 :)

Building tibia on a flexible game engine prolly saves the time of handling RHI/GUI/Resources/....? more?
Obviously it's not a bad idea NOR a good idea. Just as ~edubart said, everyone should be using his preferred way of doing a thing.

I'm taking the game development career and especially the graphics development SO yeah, usually I dont do games in unity. Actually not even 20%.
It's just a matter of fact and trying the client and it turned out to be successful, at least saving time to do A LOT of pain and maintaining them.

PS: What are the advantages and disadvantages to using a game engine? (https://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/859/what-are-the-advantages-and-disadvantages-to-using-a-game-engine)

Sincerely,
Slavi
 
Last edited:
@gudan garam what you said is even more of a reason to share the most we can, a good developer today that reaches community has to choose between developing nice features for it or make bug fixing that everyone else has
 
Well, I will summarize my thoughts in a few lines and be as direct as possible.

I agree with the kondrah to charge the amount he wants in codes created and made by him (even because only he knows the time that was spent on them). However I disagree with the attitude being made through an open source (created by Edubart). I would agree 100% if the kondrah sold only its codes (OTClientBOT), as it is entirely his own.

The OpenTibia community is totally a meme, where most of the servers that are at the "top" (very online players) of the otservlist earning exorbitant amounts of money, none contribute or make a small donation as a bonus to the creators of the sources they use themselves. I am referring to Mark Samman (TFS developer), Edubart (OTClient developer), another one that no one has mentioned so far and that I think is extremely important, Hampus Joakim Nilsson (Developer of Remeres Map Editor).

I as a programmer with not much knowledge compared to these, I know how much time it takes to make a feature, etc. and why not charge for it? After all, I see that no programmer works for free.

Now, if you're making a lot of money on a server, why not pay a programmer to make things better for you?

Nobody is forced to use OTCV8, much less pay for full access, this is your choice. Obviously for those who have a big server, with a lot of players and are profiting a lot, I think it's fair to pay for something of quality for your players, don't you agree?

NOTE: I don't agree with kondrah to fix bugs and make some fundamental improvements and optimizations for OTC (open source) and not contribute to the release of these codes to the repository, however I do agree to sell several features related to OTC, the BOT that he even created for example.
 
Well, I will summarize my thoughts in a few lines and be as direct as possible.

I agree with the kondrah to charge the amount he wants in codes created and made by him (even because only he knows the time that was spent on them). However I disagree with the attitude being made through an open source (created by Edubart). I would agree 100% if the kondrah sold only its codes (OTClientBOT), as it is entirely his own.

The OpenTibia community is totally a meme, where most of the servers that are at the "top" (very online players) of the otservlist earning exorbitant amounts of money, none contribute or make a small donation as a bonus to the creators of the sources they use themselves. I am referring to Mark Samman (TFS developer), Edubart (OTClient developer), another one that no one has mentioned so far and that I think is extremely important, Hampus Joakim Nilsson (Developer of Remeres Map Editor).

I as a programmer with not much knowledge compared to these, I know how much time it takes to make a feature, etc. and why not charge for it? After all, I see that no programmer works for free.

Now, if you're making a lot of money on a server, why not pay a programmer to make things better for you?

Nobody is forced to use OTCV8, much less pay for full access, this is your choice. Obviously for those who have a big server, with a lot of players and are profiting a lot, I think it's fair to pay for something of quality for your players, don't you agree?

NOTE: I don't agree with kondrah to fix bugs and make some fundamental improvements and optimizations for OTC (open source) and not contribute to the release of these codes to the repository, however I do agree to sell several features related to OTC, the BOT that he even created for example.
this is exactly what I've been saying all along.
-> Fundamental Improvements and Bug Fixes should be shared and openly discussed.
-> Custom content can be sold, kept private or shared as the owners decide.

However, I do encourage us to take into consideration sharing a few custom content, if not, all of them. Specially for larger servers that are alot of years online and that won't have anything to lose by sharing this. I mean, even if PXG (for example) posted his whole server and datapack in the forum it's highly unlikely that someone could download and take away his playerbase. I intend to share some of the things I've developing in the past years but I do hope that this isn't an one-side act alone. Just need to sit for a few days and understand what my server has of different than default tfs (I mean, besides the whole datapack) and what might be useful to others.
 
@edubart hindered otclient development by himself by making it impossible to have a pull request merged with the main branch. Years later when people get organized to move one fork foward, @Iryont comes back and start merging stuff and randomly deleting reported issues, and people got kinda lost on what to do.

You guys identified a problem, lack of progress on open source projects of the community, and are trying to find someone to blame. No one owns anything back to anyone, if people don't want to join the open source game it's their problem. If edubart wanted something back from his efforts he should have picked another model or License, the beauty on MIT License is that people can do what kondra did and there is no problem with it.

If you guys want the open source going foward, you go there and move it foward. You don't write bullshit excuses and blame other people, other people don't own you nothing.

People that leech from it to make money are competing over each other and have no interest on an solution, the first step won't come from them. Stop to compare apple to oranges, they are playing the capitalist game, that has nothing to do with the open source world and they are not to blame. They are not some potential volunteer or mecenas, if they couldn't be doing what they are doing they would be somewhere else.
 
Back
Top