Delusion.... Does it fit to all religions?

[Cdvooo]

A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.[1] Unlike hallucinations, delusions are always pathological (the result of an illness or illness process).[1] As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, or other effects of perception.
Delusions typically occur in the context of neurological or mental illness, although they are not tied to any particular disease and have been found to occur in the context of many pathological states (both physical and mental). However, they are of particular diagnostic importance in psychotic disorders including schizophrenia, paraphrenia, manic episodes of bipolar disorder, and psychotic depression.

Delusion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

delusion [dɪˈluːʒən]
n
1. (Psychiatry) a mistaken or misleading opinion, idea, belief, etc. he has delusions of grandeur
2. (Psychiatry) Psychiatry a belief held in the face of evidence to the contrary, that is resistant to all reason See also illusion, hallucination
3. (Psychiatry) the act of deluding or state of being deluded
delusional adj
delusive adj
delusively adv
delusiveness n
delusory [dɪˈluːsərɪ] adj

delusion - definition of delusion by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

Greetings fellow OtLanders!

I come here to discuss a very simple topic (I will opt my way out of using very 'sophisticated' words, using big words does not validate your argument more.)

Are religions a delusion? It's a very simple discussion actually. There is nothing offensive and please try to stay as mature as possible.. I will ask Mods to be open-minded and try to take in considerable arguments of why/whynot's!

myopinion:I do think religion is a delusion. Please refer to the definitions above because they will most likely be my main source for this argument..

I consider religion a delusion because of many facts! Most of them have to do with how religious people can't provide any real evidence to their claims. Also it's a delusion because most, if not all,(generalizing here) will not admit that they are wrong based on scientific reasoning. We all take part in this yellowbrickroad, but some of us tend to find a real path. I may give the possibility that I'm wrong if you based your argument on majority over minority etc. Which, how ever, does not make it true. To me religion is a delusion!

I don't want to give everything out in just one single blow! Before we start 'debating?' I want to make something clear. Please give at least one source for your argument, and link it!

This is not a Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism discussion thread so please do try to minimize your claims on specific religions. We are generalizing and just brainstorming.

So. Again. Are religion's a delusion?

my first source:"http://www.minddisorders.com/Br-Del/Delusions.html"

Cheers!

 

[Shockah]

I wouldn't say that religions are delusional as such... You're right about their being little evidence to support a lot of things religion claims but there is also not much evidence to prove against it. Religion always has been and probably always will be a very touchy subject, although I believe in God I think I'm quite open minded and therefore don't take the bible word for word. Unfortunately a fair few people think their religious beliefs are set in stone and what they have been taught is exactly what happened, it's not open for argument or discussion.

 

[Cdvooo]

I wouldn't say that religions are delusional as such... You're right about their being little evidence to support a lot of things religion claims but there is also not much evidence to prove against it. Religion always has been and probably always will be a very touchy subject, although I believe in God I think I'm quite open minded and therefore don't take the bible word for word. Unfortunately a fair few people think their religious beliefs are set in stone and what they have been taught is exactly what happened, it's not open for argument or discussion.

Well. I would like to point out that there are many pier-reviewed scientific papers which indicates strong, plentiful evidence for many scientific theories that contradict religious claims...

Theories based on the scientific method.
Scientific Method - an introduction to the Scientific Method

Why should you take this into account? Because the 'theories' are confirm explanations to real events(phenomena)(The scientific method (or simply scientific method) is a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge.) in short.

I do find your point of view quite interesting. But it lacks 'fundamentals'. Common ones that should be encouraged to any one.

For the sake of our time I won't point out the contradictions from religious claims. But if you need me to cite any. I will not hesitate to provide you with such information!

#Edit:

I want some one to tell me why religion is not a delusion, and please cite it with evidence

 

[Zisly]

"You can't prove god doesn't exist"
Fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Most likely because it's been with us for a long time, it's a cultural thing. It's the same thing with alcohol, there's no way it's going away but I'm pretty damn certain it would not be legalized if it was invented today.

 

[Amusement]

If you don't already, watch TheAmazingAthiest.

 

[Bintzer]

organized religion is one of the biggest delusions on the planet

that being said, the more you study the world's different religions the more you realize how similar they all are.
people use these labels such as judaism, christianity, and muslim to separate themselves from other people.
this is why i believe so many people now a days see religion as being so diluted from the truth.
which it is. any time you use that label to separate yourself from or judge another person you are completely contradicting your own "views"
the way i see it, every single major religion believes in the same god and the same message. its the message that we all know is true because it comes from within ourselves, there since birth. its what makes us want to be good people, its what makes us want to make this world a better place. not for ourselves, but for our sons of daughters. its our conscience.

whether some religions define it as one god or multiple gods is irrelevant, it's only their personification of the truth.

whether or not jesus is the son of god is irrelevant, we are all the sons and daughters of something greater than us, he was just one of the best examples of how to live according to the "conscience" inside us all

whether or not heaven/hell exists is irrelevant, we all leave this world some day and we all truly want to leave it better than it was when we got here, whether we care about these feelings or not

the simple matter is we need to stop labeling things as good and bad, because all the best things in this world are both.
we have to separate ourselves from our animal instincts to truly understand this (all the feelings that cause hate, revenge, our craving for justice)

religion/drugs/love are all great and terrible things, it all depends completely on your reasons for pursuing them
drugs are a terrible thing when used for the wrong reasons (to escape, stop caring etc.) but when done for the right reasons (expansion of the mind, pursuit of knowledge) can lead to wonderful things source1
love is a wonderful thing when done for the right reasons, but when done for the wrong reasons (loneliness, conformity) can lead to terrible things.
this can be applied to nearly everything, you have to be able to distinguish the good and bad in everything
when you generalize something as either good or bad, you stop perceiving the opposite in it even though its always there

these are all things i've been contemplating for years, gonna start writing a book soon

 

[Cdvooo]

organized religion is one of the biggest delusions on the planet

that being said, the more you study the world's different religions the more you realize how similar they all are.
people use these labels such as judaism, christianity, and muslim to separate themselves from other people.
this is why i believe so many people now a days see religion as being so diluted from the truth.
which it is. any time you use that label to separate yourself from or judge another person you are completely contradicting your own "views"
the way i see it, every single major religion believes in the same god and the same message. its the message that we all know is true because it comes from within ourselves, there since birth. its what makes us want to be good people, its what makes us want to make this world a better place. not for ourselves, but for our sons of daughters. its our conscience.

whether some religions define it as one god or multiple gods is irrelevant, it's only their personification of the truth.

whether or not jesus is the son of god is irrelevant, we are all the sons and daughters of something greater than us, he was just one of the best examples of how to live according to the "conscience" inside us all

whether or not heaven/hell exists is irrelevant, we all leave this world some day and we all truly want to leave it better than it was when we got here, whether we care about these feelings or not

the simple matter is we need to stop labeling things as good and bad, because all the best things in this world are both.
we have to separate ourselves from our animal instincts to truly understand this (all the feelings that cause hate, revenge, our craving for justice)

religion/drugs/love are all great and terrible things, it all depends completely on your reasons for pursuing them
drugs are a terrible thing when used for the wrong reasons (to escape, stop caring etc.) but when done for the right reasons (expansion of the mind, pursuit of knowledge) can lead to wonderful things source1
love is a wonderful thing when done for the right reasons, but when done for the wrong reasons (loneliness, conformity) can lead to terrible things.
this can be applied to nearly everything, you have to be able to distinguish the good and bad in everything
when you generalize something as either good or bad, you stop perceiving the opposite in it even though its always there

these are all things i've been contemplating for years, gonna start writing a book soon

I do agree with you for the most part. How ever, there are many things that have only negative outcomes and(assuming you do) look for that positive counter part. I'm interested on how you cited drug as something 'good'.

We humans being conscious, rational, complex beings set standards in which what is good and what is bad( if you research you will find that many of the mental illness are based on majority view). If(not saying it will happen) people start categorizing pedophilia as normal (like they did with homosexuality), it will be exempt from the definition 'mental illness'. It's an ambiguous term based on the standards that the higher uppers(lawl) set. Saying there is bad to good and good for bad is completely accurate. How ever, there are many negative outcomes some substances and events have, which engulf the positive outcomes.

Personal opinion: ' Any substances that creates an unbalance in your homeostatus system, it's completely wrong. First it causes many bad side effects (search medical press, if need assistance, do ask me in private! ). For example, weed. It has many negative and i really don't see the positive. It may have some positive but I fail to see it. Before you conclude something else there are many studies that suggest weed, and other alien substance you might consume, are bad for neuro activity. And not just that, for your complete health!'

Now, as I stated in my personal opinion quote, The evidence towards many things greatly overcomes the views of the majority. As in religion, they assume is right, science proves in many forms it's wrong. Many people will try to find clever ways on hiding their fallacious views with many false assertion, and even start making up research that when other scientist try to convey, they have other outcomes or none at all. Take for example, the guys who found 'cold fusion'. Other scientist tried to recreate the experiments. They fail'd. And the scientific community ask the guys to recreate it. And they fail'd.

I'm not making any claims what so ever, I'm just using things as examples.

edit#:

You can apply one thing to another.
Gday!

 

[macedoon]

What's the point that you're trying to make with this thread? Humans should give up their religions because you say its delusional? Religion has done more good then evil. And yes, I am ashamed that it has been abused. But it has helped a lot of people through a lot of hardships and it makes me, personally, a better person. I've learned not to judge people, I don't see colors, I don't see races, all I see is a person such as myself. I believe in God and if you say that it makes me delusional, then so be it, that's a price I'll gladly pay as I, a religious person, respect everyone's opinion. But, as much as I respect your opinion, I fail to see a point in this. Only bad can come of this, sooner or later, this will probably start to become a flamewar towards religious people. I said what I wanted to say, sort of, and I wish you good luck with your discussion thread, I will not return.


P.S. I know you have your freedom of speech and such, but this is just mocking us and shows no respect at all.



What do you have to say about this V ?

"You can't prove god doesn't exist"
Fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Most likely because it's been with us for a long time, it's a cultural thing. It's the same thing with alcohol, there's no way it's going away but I'm pretty damn certain it would not be legalized if it was invented today.

 

[Santi]

I don't think it is a delusion if you can't prove it wrong.

 

[Zisly]

I'd like you to go all out so we can see exactly where you want to go. If you're convinced of being right, which I'd assume you are, going out wouldn't really hurt. What's the reason for you not putting down everything at once? risking losing the debate or?

If we say the people who believe in a greater power are delusional, where should this debate head after we have all agreed to it?

The problem overall with these religion threads in my opinion is that they are debates. Instead of trying to get different perspectives of things, you just want to prove something wrong and never actually take a second to really see what the other person means, you just see something you wanna poke holes in so you can win the whole thing. If things weren't so much "win or lose" oriented, you could broaden your knowledge within different fields even though you might not agree to them or stand behind them.

To the delusion thing overall: a lot of the people if not all, are at points delusional. I can agree that religion could go under there but what about it? Because a thing could go under a label that could be negative is does not mean it's the whole world. It's when things go overboard that things become problematic, for example if a person with a very strong religious belief starts going against the local laws because of said belief. Balance is needed in everything. "Huge amounts chips cause cancer" we've heard, that means chips are bad and should be stayed away from completely? what about a shy boy, the shyness does not stop him from functioning in the every day life but to some extent it limits him within the social interaction, what should we do with him?

Meh, I really don't know what to write because I have no idea where you really wanna go with this after you've stated that religious people are delusional.
I'd like to add this:

The DSM-IV, and psychologists, generally agree that personal beliefs should be evaluated with great respect to complexity of cultural and religious differences since some cultures have widely accepted beliefs that may be considered delusional in other cultures.[5]

Delusional disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Cdvooo]

What's the point that you're trying to make with this thread? Humans should give up their religions because you say its delusional? Religion has done more good then evil. And yes, I am ashamed that it has been abused. But it has helped a lot of people through a lot of hardships and it makes me, personally, a better person. I've learned not to judge people, I don't see colors, I don't see races, all I see is a person such as myself. I believe in God and if you say that it makes me delusional, then so be it, that's a price I'll gladly pay as I, a religious person, respect everyone's opinion. But, as much as I respect your opinion, I fail to see a point in this. Only bad can come of this, sooner or later, this will probably start to become a flamewar towards religious people. I said what I wanted to say, sort of, and I wish you good luck with your discussion thread, I will not return.


P.S. I know you have your freedom of speech and such, but this is just mocking us and shows no respect at all.



What do you have to say about this V ?

I invite you to click on the Fallacy link and read through them.

I'd like you to go all out so we can see exactly where you want to go. If you're convinced of being right, which I'd assume you are, going out wouldn't really hurt. What's the reason for you not putting down everything at once? risking losing the debate or?

If we say the people who believe in a greater power are delusional, where should this debate head after we have all agreed to it?

The problem overall with these religion threads in my opinion is that they are debates. Instead of trying to get different perspectives of things, you just want to prove something wrong and never actually take a second to really see what the other person means, you just see something you wanna poke holes in so you can win the whole thing. If things weren't so much "win or lose" oriented, you could broaden your knowledge within different fields even though you might not agree to them or stand behind them.

I really have no reason to just put everything out. Trying to see where this goes.

I love argument, I love debate. I don't expect anyone just to sit there and agree with me, that's not their job.
Margaret Thatcher

One of the things I've learned is that you never win or loose a debate(others choose that for you). There are certain ways you can get information from other people without causing a major catastrophe. I know you can't debate with science, there is nothing to debate!

My intentions are so we can handle a semi-provocative topic without over exaggerating things and start a flame war. Just try to get the general form I'm answering each reply. Maybe it does not look like it, but it's more of a discussion.

X fits into certain definition
Y = set of all people who don't agree
Z = discussion

If X is an accurate description to something there will be Y amount that will deny X. Y will not provide any valid sources to defend their point of view. Z is a way of expressing points of view and maybe maintain a certain degree of accuracy.

Trying to show OtLand mods that we can have a serious discussion without it turning to aflamewar.

general:
Also... This is not a God Topic, or prove god's existence etc. It's simply a Delusion and Religion topic. So let's stop derailing the thread and get to subject. I never ask'd if we can or cannot prove the existence of a deity. If you guys want to discuss that, feel free to make another thread. And I'm not making a mockery. If you clearly thing that it's because you have not read my post clearly.

also, because nothing else to do! chemical design exam tomorrow. Need to clear my mind with something, and why not just spend a few hours here in otland!

 

[Zisly]

I do agree with you for the most part. How ever, there are many things that have only negative outcomes and(assuming you do) look for that positive counter part. I'm interested on how you cited drug as something 'good'.

What if drugs are bad? we humans are hypocrites to a great extent and nothing is really gonna change that, we can try to be less of a hypocrite but we will still remain one . What would life be if everything had to be 'good', 'healthy', 'fair' and all that? do you drink? smoke? eat unhealthy? you'll most likely answer to yes to 2 or more. What about it?
Do you think people should be able to do drugs legally as long as they were the ones affected?

We humans being conscious, rational, complex beings set standards in which what is good and what is bad( if you research you will find that many of the mental illness are based on majority view). If(not saying it will happen) people start categorizing pedophilia as normal (like they did with homosexuality), it will be exempt from the definition 'mental illness'. It's an ambiguous term based on the standards that the higher uppers(lawl) set. Saying there is bad to good and good for bad is completely accurate. How ever, there are many negative outcomes some substances and events have, which engulf the positive outcomes.

Rationality is very relative and so are morals & ethics. Homosexuality I do not really see as the "way it should be" because you're supposed to reproduce but I'm fine with homosexual people do whatever with each other, it's none of my damn business and no one comes to harm, if someone would come to harm there would be laws for it that aren't sexual orientation based because rape is still rape etc. I believe homosexuality was removed not so long ago, right? before that, how were the studies going? upbringing affected the sexuality, lack of x lead to y? what were the theories of treatment and were there any treatment studies for homosexuality done, if so: what were the results?

I do not see pedophilia ever becoming "ok" because the relationship is simply not between two adults.

- - - Updated - - -

I invite you to click on the Fallacy link and read through them.



I really have no reason to just put everything out. Trying to see where this goes.

I love argument, I love debate. I don't expect anyone just to sit there and agree with me, that's not their job.
Margaret Thatcher

One of the things I've learned is that you never win or loose a debate(others choose that for you). There are certain ways you can get information from other people without causing a major catastrophe. I know you can't debate with science, there is nothing to debate!

My intentions are so we can handle a semi-provocative topic without over exaggerating things and start a flame war. Just try to get the general form I'm answering each reply. Maybe it does not look like it, but it's more of a discussion.

X fits into certain definition
Y = set of all people who don't agree
Z = discussion

If X is an accurate description to something there will be Y amount that will deny X. Y will not provide any valid sources to defend their point of view. Z is a way of expressing points of view and maybe maintain a certain degree of accuracy.

Trying to show OtLand mods that we can have a serious discussion without it turning to aflamewar.

general:
Also... This is not a God Topic, or prove god's existence etc. It's simply a Delusion and Religion topic. So let's stop derailing the thread and get to subject. I never ask'd if we can or cannot prove the existence of a deity. If you guys want to discuss that, feel free to make another thread. And I'm not making a mockery. If you clearly thing that it's because you have not read my post clearly.

also, because nothing else to do! chemical design exam tomorrow. Need to clear my mind with something, and why not just spend a few hours here in otland!

Ok, religion is a delusion. What now? I assume talking about a delusion being kept in check is not really problematic would be railing away from topic? kinda boring being this strict with it, specially here.

 

[Amped RPG]

Drugs are bad unless they are entirely natural. -.^?

 

[Cdvooo]

What if drugs are bad? we humans are hypocrites to a great extent and nothing is really gonna change that, we can try to be less of a hypocrite but we will still remain one . What would life be if everything had to be 'good', 'healthy', 'fair' and all that? do you drink? smoke? eat unhealthy? you'll most likely answer to yes to 2 or more. What about it?

To answer your questions, I don't drink nor smoke. I'm currently on a weightlifting team ( scholarship+diet) to answer your third question. What about it? I think I answered that in my post.

Personal opinion: ' Any substances that creates an unbalance in your homeostatus system, it's completely wrong. First it causes many bad side effects (search medical press, if need assistance, do ask me in private! ). For example, weed. It has many negative and i really don't see the positive. It may have some positive but I fail to see it. Before you conclude something else there are many studies that suggest weed, and other alien substance you might consume, are bad for neuro activity. And not just that, for your complete health!'

Do you think people should be able to do drugs legally as long as they were the ones affected?

Yes, I agree with that.

Rationality is very relative and so are morals & ethics

Yes, I do know that.

Homosexuality I do not really see as the "way it should be" because you're supposed to reproduce but I'm fine with homosexual people do whatever with each other, it's none of my damn business and no one comes to harm, if someone would come to harm there would be laws for it that aren't sexual orientation based because rape is still rape etc.

There is a great deal of evidence for homosexuality being an evolutionary advantage. It's something natural and common. I never said anything wrong about homosexuality. I just used it as an example:
"We humans being conscious, rational, complex beings set standards in which what is good and what is bad( if you research you will find that many of the mental illness are based on majority view). If(not saying it will happen) people start categorizing pedophilia as normal (like they did with homosexuality), it will be exempt from the definition 'mental illness'. It's an ambiguous term based on the standards that the higher uppers(lawl) set. Saying there is bad to good and good for bad is completely accurate. How ever, there are many negative outcomes some substances and events have, which engulf the positive outcomes."

And yes, people used to consider homosexuality a mental illness and something unnatural(which i do know for a fact that you know!) I just used it as an example. I have nothing against homosexuality. I have many homosexual friends and they've been with me through many downs in my life.

I believe homosexuality was removed not so long ago, right? before that, how were the studies going? upbringing affected the sexuality, lack of x lead to y? what were the theories of treatment and were there any treatment studies for homosexuality done, if so: what were the results?

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_mental_health.html

I do not see pedophilia ever becoming "ok" because the relationship is simply not between two adults.

I do agree with you. How ever, you do know you can't compare cultures right?(i.e Comparing your culture with others) If one culture finds that to be normal. How can you prove their wrong?

- - - Updated - - -

Ok, religion is a delusion. What now? I'd say the thread is pretty much dead because I don't see it going anywhere else without derailing.

It can go many places. I'm still hoping that some one will provide me with enough information for me think twice to answer his post!

The thing about derailing it it's that it's going to turn into a god/nogod debate, then an islam,christianity debate and then religious/nonreligious (ASSUMING). And those are the ones who lead to flame wars!

 

[Zisly]

I do agree with you. How ever, you do know you can't compare cultures right?(i.e Comparing your culture with others) If one culture finds that to be normal. How can you prove their wrong?

I know, everything's relative and yada yada, which I said earlier on. I made it simpler by assuming a generalized western society's stand on pedophilia, I should have made that clear I guess.

The thing about derailing it it's that it's going to turn into a god/nogod debate, then an islam,christianity debate and then religious/nonreligious (ASSUMING). And those are the ones who lead to flame wars!

Well that's not the way I'm trying to head. I'll write some more after getting my beauty sleep on where I wanted to go, it's kinda spread out across the posts now though.

 

[walkingdragon]

I believe in what Cdvooo is saying because it all makes sense, you can't really prove things to people who don't see them that way, I myself have always believed that there is an answer to anything there is in the world, nothing can make absolutly no sense at all because it will either mathmatically, scientifically or physically. The people who sit there and argue about one religion or another have nothing better to do, all religions are to me are factions of the same thing, I personally don't believe in god or the devil or heave and hell by sense that I have yet to have seen proof that it exists, you may classify me as an athiest or an idealist or whatever but I am not because I refuse to belong to a group. The only reason people have made these groups of such like being Gay/lesbian or a pedophile or anything as the such is because THEY think it's wrong, not the one who does these things. Then again everything always depends on the interpreter of things be it you or the person next to you, all people have different views in the world and you can convince someone that something is wrong but you can't force them to believe in them if they don't want. and as Cdvooo said about not doing drugs I give props, I have never[.b] smoked, drank or done drugs in my entire life and I body build when I can, as far as the food pyramid or anything that states you are unhealthy, I think that aslong as you maintain a constant weight and are physically uncapacitated because of it you are healthy.