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Habdel
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Night Wolf
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You have very good skills and the vast majority of the images is very harmonic.
I don't know if you're interested in a feedback, but even being clearly a better mapper than the vast majority of folks here you're still making a lot of mistakes we can see in several beginners maps: The environment doesn't look real.
The main problem is that you are detailing too much even in environments that are supposed to be simple, and by doing so you're multiplying your chances of failing simple physics details.
I'll give you a few examples and the explanation why they wouldn't exist in real life:
- Moss and leaves wouldn't be this green near a fire.
- Stone blocks in a wodden bridge?
- a tree wouldn't be growing on acid
- Several different plants and trees that grows in completely different environment sharing a very small space of dirt. Conifers for instance are trees of small temperatures and they require a lot of space between other trees because they fight for the nutrients of the ground.
It seems that you have mastered the remeres and mapping skills already, if you focus on learning more about real life biomes and environments you could make even better maps!
I don't know if you're interested in a feedback, but even being clearly a better mapper than the vast majority of folks here you're still making a lot of mistakes we can see in several beginners maps: The environment doesn't look real.
The main problem is that you are detailing too much even in environments that are supposed to be simple, and by doing so you're multiplying your chances of failing simple physics details.
I'll give you a few examples and the explanation why they wouldn't exist in real life:
- Moss and leaves wouldn't be this green near a fire. - Stone blocks in a wodden bridge? - a tree wouldn't be growing on acid - Several different plants and trees that grows in completely different environment sharing a very small space of dirt. Conifers for instance are trees of small temperatures and they require a lot of space between other trees because they fight for the nutrients of the ground.It seems that you have mastered the remeres and mapping skills already, if you focus on learning more about real life biomes and environments you could make even better maps!
OP
OP
Habdel
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Hello @Night Wolf! Thank you very much for the feedback, I hope you continue to follow and share your analysis.
I'm starting, I haven't created maps for 8 years so I'm adapting, but I will correct the changes you made. I am very grateful.
EDIT: I am even a fanatic about the details and maybe that is a weak point, because I believe that I am really using too much detail and ends up dirtying my map.
I'm starting, I haven't created maps for 8 years so I'm adapting, but I will correct the changes you made. I am very grateful.
EDIT: I am even a fanatic about the details and maybe that is a weak point, because I believe that I am really using too much detail and ends up dirtying my map.
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Night Wolf
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Some biomes and geographies tend to be way more chaotic, you don't need to change your mapping style but understanding what biomes are more 'your kind' will allow you to go more wild on those.
The image you posted above is very harmonic too, but you could have have used a darker grass if you intended to crowd it with that many trees (specially near water if it was to be considered a river and not sea).
Remember that plants and trees fight for nutrients so if you have a bad ground (mountain and rocky in this case) not only it won't be possible to grow a tree there, but also impossible to have that many amount. Colors of grass should indicate this, being darker = a more watery ground full of nitrogen and other necessary elements for trees growth. So you have a thin layer of grass, light green grass and lots of plants/trees fighting for the few nutrients that there is. In a real life situation it would take less than a week for all those trees/plants be dead.
Other stuff like pollution and weather can heavily affect the plants/trees of a location (including their color) so it really goes down to what lore you want to apply in that particular environment, but it needs to be consistent.
A few interesting links:
The image you posted above is very harmonic too, but you could have have used a darker grass if you intended to crowd it with that many trees (specially near water if it was to be considered a river and not sea).
Remember that plants and trees fight for nutrients so if you have a bad ground (mountain and rocky in this case) not only it won't be possible to grow a tree there, but also impossible to have that many amount. Colors of grass should indicate this, being darker = a more watery ground full of nitrogen and other necessary elements for trees growth. So you have a thin layer of grass, light green grass and lots of plants/trees fighting for the few nutrients that there is. In a real life situation it would take less than a week for all those trees/plants be dead.
Other stuff like pollution and weather can heavily affect the plants/trees of a location (including their color) so it really goes down to what lore you want to apply in that particular environment, but it needs to be consistent.
A few interesting links:
- Peppered moth evolution - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution) (How pollution affects colors of trees and animals/insects)
- Different Colors of Grass - Picture Perfect Lawn Maintenance (https://pictureperfectlawn.net/different-colors-of-grass/) (Understanding the tones of grass)
- Holdridge life zones - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holdridge_life_zones) (How to classify a biome)
Kuzyn
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@Night Wolf
I think that you're taking this too seriously, it's a game. With very non realistic aproach in terms of graphics. Anyway, I wouldn't agree wit everything:
I think that you're taking this too seriously, it's a game. With very non realistic aproach in terms of graphics. Anyway, I wouldn't agree wit everything:
Different types of thujas can live in many different climates, from really cold to hot. And they can live next to each other, people use them for making natural fences.
The whole tower is made out of stone and metal, so why not?
Swamp =/= acid.
He and many other mappers from ot community and Cipsoft could use just dirt or moss. Deciduous and coniferous forests are often really dense, so there is not enough light for grass and surface is blocked by trees' roots. But I think that we can agree, that would just look really bad in Tibia's perspective.
Are you sure?
Night Wolf
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The reason why I'm being too "picky" is because I know that he can do it, otherwise I wouldn't be complaining about this level of detail from someone who wouldn't be able to deliver it. And worse, they could have taken this personally and getting demotivated.
I don't know what you understand from "hot" but coniferous forest is a biome that only exists up to 20º, being the avg temperature 10º. For me that live in Brazil anything below 21º is cold already. Is either this or NASA is wrong. Also when I mentioned that trees compete for nutrients and sunlight, that don't necessarily means you won't be able to make a fence out of thujas, it's just that if you make the fence in the direction of the sun translation and they don't get enough light, or if the soil isn't rich enough to provide nutrients and water for all of them they will certainly die or not grow enough. You can read a full explanation of mechanisms of plant competition in this ecological journey of British Society.
My goal with this feedback was to show him that the easy isn't necessarily the better option in this case. He already had set the theme of the castle and decided to make a crackled wooden bridge, but when repairing a wood bridge with stone marbles he accidentally killed the logic in the map.
I mean, not only stone marbles are far heavier and difficult to be handled but they wouldn't serve to "glue" into wooden. There's a chemical explanation to this but if the previous ones didn't convinced you yet, won't be a full detailed explanation on wooden properties in a microscopy level that will...
Ok, you might be right on this one but either way this is definetely not the correct tree for the biome he tried to create.
It is possible because I've seen it done properly already, but it's hard to match all the correct distribution and specially more to have a walkable map in a biome like this.
I'm sorry but this is a completely different biome than the one he tried to represent in his mountain example. The soil there is gravel, which only grow trees under VERY specific situations (mostly human intervention), while in your example you're just showing a regular forest near a cliff. The tree might be under rocks, but there's also soil and moss all over the place. In his example the trees shouldn't be evenly distributed but rather the distribution near the water should be higher and the ones in the side of the tower would receive less light and therefore grow less.
When creating a fantasy world, your ultimate goal should be to make it as realistic as possible. If you start messing the basics of the environment it will always have the feeling of "this doesn't seem natural". Go check Lord of The Rings or even Avatar, they both made a splendid job in the setup of their respective worlds, and it's also why they are so iconic.
infrator123
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Kuzyn
Excellent OT User
As a "hot" I understand countries like Turkey, Greece, Italy, Spain, western part of USA (California) etc. We can even say that Siberia is hot, but only in late spring/summer. Anyway, conifers in these areas do well. And no, thujas will not certainly die on poor soil. They are very tolerant, only soils not suitable for them are extremely barren and dry sandy soils and heavy clay soils, which are often covered with water. I also wouldn't agree about light, because I see everyday many "thujas fences" hidden behind buildings for the most of the day. Of course their needles might be brighter, but they're fine in semi shadow.
This is a totally fantasy castle and he mixed stone with metal and wood. So I don't see any killed logic with this borders. Those slabs might be really thin, but this is Tibia, not a 3d game, you can't guess it. And you don't need to glue this, I don't know what kind of chemical explanation you wanted to bring here but wood can be a strong material and even thick slabs wouldn't hurt that bridge.Night Wolf said:
You don't get one thing, this is his map and his world. Maybe for him this tree is completely natural here.Night Wolf said:
Trees are able to grow on abandoned building roofs without any soil or in the middle of collapsed building.Night Wolf said:
Imho one big NONight Wolf said:
Especially when we talk about games.
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Agree to disagree, that just seems backwards as to what fantasy means.
Neon
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Do you know what the definition of "fantasy" is my guy?
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Blackstone
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If it looks good and somehow makes sense OR does fit into the targeted atmosphere it doesn't need to be realistic.
It's just the same discussion if mappers should place stone walls on top of wooden palisades or similar things, why not if it looks good and it's not totally unrealistic (or better say wierd, unrealistic might be the wrong term).
In my eyes mappers can be artists and we should not care about the exact details of realism.
@Night Wolf stated his opinion and not everything is wrong, now it's up to @Habdel to deny or accept this feedback. If he choses to deny that, it should just be fine when the contrast and color transitions still look good but realism isn't the best argument (in every case, sometimes it does make sense).
It's just the same discussion if mappers should place stone walls on top of wooden palisades or similar things, why not if it looks good and it's not totally unrealistic (or better say wierd, unrealistic might be the wrong term).
In my eyes mappers can be artists and we should not care about the exact details of realism.
@Night Wolf stated his opinion and not everything is wrong, now it's up to @Habdel to deny or accept this feedback. If he choses to deny that, it should just be fine when the contrast and color transitions still look good but realism isn't the best argument (in every case, sometimes it does make sense).
Night Wolf
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I think the main problem is that I was using the word 'realistic' when trying to meaning 'credible'. Even fantasy worlds (unrealistic) need to have specific rules and work with them, breaking your own rules or not setting them and expecting people to buy those flaws will give the unnatural sensation that I talked about. But it's like Blackstone stated above, I don't know why people are still engaging on this discussion when my post was a feedback directed to @op. It's up to him to decide how he'll use that.
Another thing is that by those snapshots we don't get to see the full picture of the map or how the environment is set as a whole, perhaps you could share some minimaps so we can at least see how those areas fit in the world you created.
Another thing is that by those snapshots we don't get to see the full picture of the map or how the environment is set as a whole, perhaps you could share some minimaps so we can at least see how those areas fit in the world you created.
knighting
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@Night Wolf
We are talking about a RPG game; there are dragons living among humans.
If you want everyone to make everything so realistic in such a game, we should actually transform Tibia in a real life simulator (let's just take every single thing about fantasy, imagination, every single magic away from the game).
Habdel is such a talented mapper and he does awesome maps. He is not making a representation from the real world whatsoever. You are completely missing the point of the game and the point in mapping.
We are talking about a RPG game; there are dragons living among humans.
If you want everyone to make everything so realistic in such a game, we should actually transform Tibia in a real life simulator (let's just take every single thing about fantasy, imagination, every single magic away from the game).
Habdel is such a talented mapper and he does awesome maps. He is not making a representation from the real world whatsoever. You are completely missing the point of the game and the point in mapping.
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Kuzyn
Excellent OT User
What's wrong with talking about this?
At least some constructive things may come out of this and we're keeping forum alive. Anyway, I'm looking forward for next screenshots from Habdel, whole map looks really interesting.