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Habdel Show-off [bragaard]

I think the main problem is that I was using the word 'realistic' when trying to meaning 'credible'. Even fantasy worlds (unrealistic) need to have specific rules and work with them, breaking your own rules or not setting them and expecting people to buy those flaws will give the unnatural sensation that I talked about.

I'm going to stund pretty rude here. But I don't really care. Sure you can use all these nice terms of Biomes and different nature not being able to grow here and there. But some sprites just look a certain way, for the piece to fit together. Doesn't always have to make sense. Sure I wouldn't say you should just place things all over the place that doesn't make sense at all.

But sometimes mappers use certain sprites because they just fit the color palette or the theme.
CipSoft doesn't make good enough sprites for more developed mappers. They make sprites for the shit tier mappers they have in their team. I've been mapping since forever, and I know a thing or two. And most of the times, shit doesn't have to make sense for it to be or look nice.

Nobody will walk around in that map/OT and say "HEY WTF, THOSE TREES CAN'T GROW THERE!".
Look, I understand what you are saying, but if you have ever mapped at a high level yourself, you would understand.
 
What's wrong with talking about this? :p At least some constructive things may come out of this and we're keeping forum alive. Anyway, I'm looking forward for next screenshots from Habdel, whole map looks really interesting.
Not really a problem, but we are making this bigger than it was first intended to. We can interact and discuss and keep forum alive with more relevant discussions than size of the leaf of a conifer...

My whole point is just that despite looking really good, the maps don't feel much natural. Specially the detailing part.
I wanted to explain in details on why I'm having this perception, but it seems it just made people mad to realize that people like me exist and WILL judge the map and environment based on aspects that the vast majority overlook with the excuse of "it's just a game, it's supposed to don't make sense". Remember this is RPG after all, things need either explanation or previous known rules will be assumed.
If I just said "this looks nice but you could give a little more attention to details" he wouldn't know what to do with this generic feedback, so while you might think that I'm being too specific, it's in fact something he can use.

Nobody will walk around in that map/OT and say "HEY WTF, THOSE TREES CAN'T GROW THERE!".
You would be surprised...
I understand that sprites are a limitation, but as I mention, I'm not asking him to do anything impossible as spriting new trees just for the sake of doing so, in fact all I'm saying is: before mapping, think of what you want to do, choose the biome and check photos on how it would be like in a real life situation. Once you know the rules, you're free to try and change them (as long as the lore explains the changes).
 
You would be surprised...
I understand that sprites are a limitation, but as I mention, I'm not asking him to do anything impossible as spriting new trees just for the sake of doing so, in fact all I'm saying is: before mapping, think of what you want to do, choose the biome and check photos on how it would be like in a real life situation. Once you know the rules, you're free to try and change them (as long as the lore explains the changes).

My advice, before mapping, think of what you want to do, and then just go for it.

And btw, nobody is mad. There are just people that don't agree with you. It's all good my dude.

But this is going to sound rude again, but I'd rather take advice from a better mapper or atleast as good of a mapper as me. Now for all I know, you could be the best mapper in the world, but I haven't seen any of your works, so I'm basing this on that.
 
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I agree in parts and I disagree in parts. What I like to map most are cities (I hate doing nature) and specific reforms. I've used Sprites of all kinds that had a similar color palette but if possible with one foot in "reality" and the other in "fantasy". It is as if I were not going to put a characteristic desert platform in a swamp, but relatively minor details I never bothered to use.

The concept if "it doesn't make sense" is very unique. Most players don't even notice how in mappers we spend hours and hours adding details to maps after it is almost finished to make it more credible. I've seen incredible results using the most diverse sprites on certain maps and some of them were something quite fanciful so to speak.

Something that Ot Mappers can do is have a freer creativity. Mappers from Cipsoft seems to be bound by certain rules and cannot go beyond certain limits and make random combinations in their work. I've seen a lot of amazing things using combinations that I never imagined would look harmonious. One example is that Sprites de Oramond can create machinery like these made by Habdel as well.

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I think it is hypocritical to criticize someone for giving an opinion on a map and at the same time saying "I am the best mapper, listen to me", or just quote arguments about worse or better. You can make beautiful maps and have your ego fed by several people, but deep down it's not much different than a beginner or someone who doesn't map. Even if that person has experience and builds a standard of quality maps, each map has its purpose and each mapper builds for different reasons and in different conditions. This bubble I burst a long time ago.

Night Wolf's reviews have encouraged me to make creative and sensible maps in recent years, if I wanted to show it, I would expect more comments like those from Night Wolf.

Habdel, you already know how I appreciate your maps and your determination (top live mapping on discord -.O), you have a lot of ideas. The maps are full of life and action, each sqm of the map has something unexpected and curious or something that no mapper has done before, and it makes you want to play, because it's not just beautiful, it's fun.

I would like to leave a suggestion, don't get too attached to the "micro" view of a map. Pay attention to the "macro" view as well, which means improving some structures and shapes that you make, which in the game view may not show its essence.

I hope you continue with your project and I am very curious to see more maps of you, a big hug!
 
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Hello gentlemen, I hope you are well.

It is a joy to see such a debate taking place here, and I agree in part with all of you.

I understand you @Night Wolf. We can really give the map a little bit of reality with small details and enrich our structure with real and biological mechanics. In reality it is something that had never crossed my mind and I confess that I really liked the idea and that in the future you will see more images of me using the same concept, I will have to adapt to this new mechanics and study a little more about biomes.

I also understand @Neon. There is a difficulty when we create an alternative map, as mentioned, Cipsoft works differently from us, and we are not always able to create something alternative with the natural basis that the game offers. In this way, a lot ends up being inserted in an abstract way but that complements and harmonizes the game-play.

At the end of the day we can see how different we are and how much we can learn from each other!

We should reactivate the mapping community and bring our ideas and work back to the community, even if it is for us to comment and discuss about the new sprites and also our techniques for applying detailing or construction.

Again I thank you all for the discussion, I hope the community is reborn again as it was one day. A hug to everyone.
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@Habdel I appreciate that you have understood the feedback and it's very good that you are in contact with @Marok. He's by far the best mapper I have seen in recent years.

Being someone who always did maps for showoffs, the main problem with @Marok was to understand how the places where he took pictures could join and remain harmonic with the rest of the map. It's like what he have said: don't attach too much in details but rather see the bigger picture. One can only achieve this when there's a lot of planning involved.

So people mentioning "just go with the flow, do it", they probably fit one of the categories below:
  • Lack of self-criticism and awareness of their own flaws. They think everything they do is perfect.
  • Just don't care about what they are doing
  • Will keep doing reworks ad infinitum

Now back to the planning part, it's important to seek inspiration in what history and nature have showed us. I'm a computer scientist but pratically everything that I tried to do I seek inspiration in both history and nature too, because we have years and years of cumulative knowledge just there waiting to be used, but mankind is too naive/egocentric to look at the past in most of the times.

Any good project requires strong prepration, in my work we plan things 1~2 years ahead, sometimes we even plan 2 or more options in case we encounter problems throughout the way. It's exactly how you should be doing your work too.

The last two maps that @Marok did were absolutely PERFECT, Micro and Macro, both entangled and working flawlessly from mapping, user experience and realness perspective.
 
I really enjoy watching your maps, and you seem like a humble dude, which i kind of hope that i am to. So i must say, its great to see you being this active, the community needs it, wish i had the time and motivation to be aswell but right now thats gonna happen, but i'll be back.

Love the discussion, I agree with parts of it from both sides. You all make great points, remember to stay humble guys, we can all learn so much from each other.
 
@Habdel I appreciate that you have understood the feedback and it's very good that you are in contact with @Marok. He's by far the best mapper I have seen in recent years.

Being someone who always did maps for showoffs, the main problem with @Marok was to understand how the places where he took pictures could join and remain harmonic with the rest of the map. It's like what he have said: don't attach too much in details but rather see the bigger picture. One can only achieve this when there's a lot of planning involved.

So people mentioning "just go with the flow, do it", they probably fit one of the categories below:
  • Lack of self-criticism and awareness of their own flaws. They think everything they do is perfect.
  • Just don't care about what they are doing
  • Will keep doing reworks ad infinitum

Now back to the planning part, it's important to seek inspiration in what history and nature have showed us. I'm a computer scientist but pratically everything that I tried to do I seek inspiration in both history and nature too, because we have years and years of cumulative knowledge just there waiting to be used, but mankind is too naive/egocentric to look at the past in most of the times.

Any good project requires strong prepration, in my work we plan things 1~2 years ahead, sometimes we even plan 2 or more options in case we encounter problems throughout the way. It's exactly how you should be doing your work too.

The last two maps that @Marok did were absolutely PERFECT, Micro and Macro, both entangled and working flawlessly from mapping, user experience and realness perspective.
@Night Wolf
I have to disagree with many things you just said. I really like @Marok and his works. I was following it for quite a while (until last month also on the discord channel) and he's creative and comes up with unique ideas. A talent on his rise for sure. But from a style, technique and detailing perspective he still doesn't stand a chance compared to quite some of the "semi"-active mappers here around. But sometimes it's also personal preferences that come into play and I am sure he will still improve and has the potential to be on top.

What bothered me the most is your very disrespectful comment about mappers that go with the flow. There is nothing wrong about it as long as you follow your vision. Experience is key. And if you learn to use more sprites properly or in a cool creative way, you will always be a head of everyone else. So I strongly disagree with that and also ask you to stay polite even if you do not agree with other opinions. We need more mappers who come around with unique and cool ideas and the best way to grow is to not limit yourself and look beyond the obvious.

What you just said is not just demotivating newer mappers but also wrong, disrespectful and inappropriate. Your only goal was to stir up hate in a very passive aggressive way. We don't need that. I was on your side when the discussion started but this is not the way to after you actually just wanted to share valuable feedback. Not like this.

I agree that big maps and projects need more planning over all. I have always underestimated it in the past but once I started planning, I made the biggest progress and looked on maps in a very different way.

But now I propose to finally let us focus back on the maps. Habdel does not deserve his thread being used for discussions over and over again. Different opinions exist and need to be heard but sometimes it doesn't come to an end. That includes myself. Any further discussions that are not regarding feedback on the maps will be moved to pms if needed.

@Habdel you're doing great, keep it up. I am very happy to see someone of your quality being active on Otland. And I will share some more detailed feedback soon. I am looking forward to see more of your works.

Cheers
 
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@Blackstone, It's quite the opposite, I didn't mean to demotivate nor being passive agressive.
"Give me six hours to chop down a tree, and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe."

Planning is important, everyone that wants to succeed needs to do it. If you are good enough that you don't need to think things in advance, do it either way to guarantee that you'll be creating the best you can and saving time.

Also, there are way too many layers on mapping besides 'level of details'. User experience, cognitive psychology, semiotic engineering, impression, exp rate control, balance, color schemes... it is simply IMPOSSIBLE to hit all those areas sucessfully without good planning.

And when you fail in any of those things, this isn't noticeable. People will say they love your city but no one will be playing there.
They will say they liked your hunt, but they won't be having the desire to interact with it unless the exp is absurd. They won't be able to tell you what they disliked about it, because this is subconscious.

You don't need to take my word as granted, make the exercise once to design a heat map of new players arriving your world, how they interact, understand and learn the stuff will tell you way more about how good your mapping is than a single image.
 
@Night Wolf The maps you think are perfect, might not be perfect in someone elses eyes. And I get it, you should take criticism from everyone. But I would rather listen to someone that knows what they are doing, than someone that doesn't.

I have never seen your mapping, I can't judge you. But lets just assume that you haven't even opened the Map Editor once. I would 100% listen to what @Blackstone has to say, than you. Just the hard truth.
Rather take criticism from Experienced people than non experienced people.

And holy fuck we are just spamming @Habdel s thread. Sorry dude.
 
When you design a map and players says that they didn't like it, will you say the same thing to them? That you won't accept their criticism because they don't know how to map?

I'm only talking about things that I have experience on, go ask any of my players or people that have worked with me.

Don't be sorry for spamming the thread, this is actually a very good thing that we are discussing on his showoff for two main reasons: putting his thread back on spot for others to see and also I believe the theme of 'how to make better maps' really relevant, perhaps we can just move this to 'Discussion board' instead.
 
Being a mapper doesn't mean your critics are better than other's tho. Being able to understand an image has nothing to do with being able to make one yourself. That falls to the same category as being an art critic. You are not supposed to be a better artist, or make better art - but to understand art and give your opinion about it.


Now, back to the topic, I have to say I love your attention to some details, but some major shapes and areas feel a bit off to me. Perhaps it has something to do with over detailing some areas. For instance, the troll cave entrance of Rook's remake, it just feels clustered, you know? Try to tone it down a bit IMO.

Anyway, great work darling! Hope to see more of you. :)
 
Being a mapper doesn't mean your critics are better than other's tho. Being able to understand an image has nothing to do with being able to make one yourself. That falls to the same category as being an art critic. You are not supposed to be a better artist, or make better art - but to understand art and give your opinion about it.

What the hell, are we discussing the image or the mapping?
Lets say you wanna learn how to draw. You wanna be a tattoo artist some day. Would you let someone that has never tattooed anything or anyone before teach you? Or someone that has been doing it for 20 years?


When you design a map and players says that they didn't like it, will you say the same thing to them? That you won't accept their criticism because they don't know how to map?
I used to care about what people thought of my mapping, now I really don't. (cus I know im the fucking goat). (kidding btw)

BUT, if someone that has ZERO experience in mapping would come to me and say "This and that should be better/changed" or whatever. I would probably see if I agree with them. If I do, I would probably adress it, but if I don't, I wouldn't. Most of the time I know I'm right, so I would just tell that person to sit the fuck down in the boat. Because I'm the fucking captain.
 
Well, you could have come up with a better example I guess. Since teaching is way different than
criticize. 🤔 It makes literally 0 sense. If I wanted to learn how to draw, I would have a teacher that knows how - but this is not a school, or is it?

And everyone's opinion should be considered, after all it's a game. Players opinions matter, but the mapper vision also matters. But yeah, if you consider your work a masterpiece and you are not open to any sort of discussion about it, to each their own. ;)
 
It makes literally 0 sense. If I wanted to learn how to draw, I would have a teacher that knows how - but this is not a school, or is it?
It's a metaphor. Take the "teach" and change it to "criticize". I'd rather someone with good knowledge of mapping judge my stuff than someone that doesn't know mapping at all.

And no, the players opinion doesn't really matter in all cases. Since alot of mapping is just done for fun.
Like 90% of all my maps that I ever created has never been used in a server at all. I trash them when I'm done with them usually. If a friend doesn't want it.

And I'm more than willing to discuss this topic further. But using @Habdel thread is not the place for it imo.
 
@Neon don't worry about spam. This space is ours and if you want to discuss subjects that are relevant to the topic, I accept it calmly, because in a way, I learn a lot from the vision of all of you and I believe that the neighbors of this topic were also pleased to see good mappers discussing the topic .
 
Oi, @LIKEAHYENA, Thanks for your feedback, some people have really said that they have too much detail, I will rephrase.

Thank you, come back often.
 
Just last responses to guys:

And when you fail in any of those things, this isn't noticeable. People will say they love your city but no one will be playing there.
They will say they liked your hunt, but they won't be having the desire to interact with it unless the exp is absurd. They won't be able to tell you what they disliked about it, because this is subconscious.
Maybe I'm not aware of this, but did Habdel mentioned if this is for playing or just for fun? I haven't seen any statement so the more there is nothing to argue about the gameplay aspect.

And holy fuck we are just spamming @Habdel s thread. Sorry dude.
Man, we all know that's not spam ;) There are many positive things about this discussion and the most important is that more and more people will come here to see nicely done maps by Habdel 👍

I see that Night Wolf already said that, sorry for repeating.
Don't be sorry for spamming the thread, this is actually a very good thing that we are discussing on his showoff for two main reasons: putting his thread back on spot for others to see

Btw @Habdel I would love to see some minimap or zoomed out view in RME. It helps to see the whole work as single image.
 
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