So you got skill? Then why are you just sitting around?

[Extrodus]

So as the title says, I'd like all these people to explain themselves. I see so many people that apparently know so much and could be SO useful to a team, but they choose to basically just sit around and talk smack on other people and beat around the bush with helping people; instead of joining a serious project.. so please enlighten me. Why do you all tend to just sit around and wait for people to pay you for something when theres SO MANY PEOPLE now that just sell the same script for cheaper prices, and its always a competition for you guys. Plus you guys are barely making cash flow, join a project; I made 800$ in 2 weeks.. so what im saying is get a cut, enhance your skills, experiment with a server where you can test your stuff out fully and enjoy them.

Its sad to see all these people getting so stuck up and charging for simple things, and now no one wants to teach anyone anything because their all trying to get paid for simple scripts. For example, an events tutorial should be created; everyone seems to want events for their server.. so start creating test events; release them to the public for modifications; start helping people build their skills. All I'm saying is this community is getting pretty sad to be apart of, yall need to lighten up, talk to people, help them out.. just stop yourself when the person on the other end of your keyboard clearly isnt comprehending what your saying and isnt learning anything.. than it just wasn't meant for them.

So for all you still active out there, discuss what your main skills are.. How many mappers do we have here on OTLand, how many scripters.. it seems like everybody does something, but when it comes to it.. barely anyone is doing anything worth wild with their skills.

So whos a mapper? Who can compile with skill, how many of you are dedicated to recreating the tibia environment.. I mean, thats why we're here right? To come together, create a new gameplay environment; try to create our own game structures. I know its all about money now and what will make the quickest buck, but seriously.. this isn't a business community. Half of the people are 12-15yrs old and are only going to be paying you if your work is in a server that they can donate to with their moms credit card. Dont get me wrong, we got older people that are willing to drop some mad cash on things they need, but what Im trying to get across is stop being so up-tight and maybe try to help people out, give new comers something to work with instead of being slabbed a price fee by every scripter that knows something.

Anyways, thats my rant for today.. please discuss it. Oh by the way, you all say you know SO much about compiling. But finding someone that seriously knows something and will help is like finding a needle in a hay stack. For the past 2 month I've been trying to learn, day in day out so I can just stop asking people for help all together; but when I come on here to get some help.. do you think I get a helpful response? 40% of the time I get a bit of help, 60% of the time I get useless comments or people who have been having the same problem for the past 6 months and no one on here can help them either.

Its getting sad, thats all Im trying to get across.

Sincerely,
Extrodus

 

[Zisly]

http://otland.net/f15/letter-otland-community-156939/index3.html#post1511167

Don't bother discussing money with egoistic and ungrateful kids. They expect the world without giving anything at all in the return, not even to help their own cause. The view on the ot forums is completely fucked. People think we are some kind of customer support, no, it's worse than that: they think they signed up for a free all around the clock support and request service. They won't use the search function, they wont try themselves before asking, they wont even try the tips/help you give them unless it's a complete solution that they can finish in 1-3 clicks or in some cases they even want you to fix this through remove control! The worst of all is that they seem to think we should be grateful for having the chance to work for them. When your "help" isn't up to their fucked standards (complete product with free installation) they'll insult you.

I think people should simply stop "helping" the people who are not willing to put anything into solving the matter. Is the question answered in 100 other threads? tell them to search or ignore the thread. Did they need help with a script and you pointed them into the right direction and they want you to fix/write the script for them? tell them to get their lazy ass together and actually try or just ignore them. We have a market-place, if they expect this kind of support I mentioned in my first paragraph, make them pay for it. Will they tell you to basically fuck off for "not helping" and dislike you? probably. Should you care? no. Is it the right thing to do? yes.

People wonder why new interesting things aren't appearing as often, well it's simple: people barely know anything, if something breaks they're screwed until they get someone else to fix it for them. There's no need to actually learn, you can run an server without even knowing what the hell that code snippet you just pasted does. Some people have nice ideas but not the knowledge and the idea therefore usually dies there. They could share the idea, right? no, that ain't happening either sadly and that is harder to change, people want nice cred/rep, an idea doesn't give that, a realized idea does. What options do we have? Well, force them to learn and that will increase the chance of them realizing it. Either keep helping these pathetic people and be part of the partial cause that is making the ship sink faster OR stop today and vote for proposition "Information is free, work isn't.".

Pretty much sums up how I feel. Things are usually available but it will take some effort from your part to find it. You can't use the "google search mentality": if it ain't within the first page it doesn't exist.

So as the title says, I'd like all these people to explain themselves. I see so many people that apparently know so much and could be SO useful to a team, but they choose to basically just sit around and talk smack on other people and beat around the bush with helping people; instead of joining a serious project.. so please enlighten me. Why do you all tend to just sit around and wait for people to pay you for something when theres SO MANY PEOPLE now that just sell the same script for cheaper prices, and its always a competition for you guys. Plus you guys are barely making cash flow, join a project; I made 800$ in 2 weeks.. so what im saying is get a cut, enhance your skills, experiment with a server where you can test your stuff out fully and enjoy them.

I think there's simply not enough interest or motivation, joining a project under those circumstances together with the knowledge that most projects never finish or stay online, is something you simply avoid.

Most people are young here and are studying, even if the cash flow is tiny, it's a plus with the current economy of a student as they can do something they like and earn some bucks. If you ask me: if you really want to earn some money you're usually better off finding a job in "real life" where you do something x hours and you're done. If you sell a product or service here, you'll usually need to give a lot of support, people manage to screw things up in the weirdest of ways, not giving support even if it's not really part of the deal will pretty much give you bad rep.

 

[Extrodus]

Saying there isnt enough motivation or interest.. it takes the person themselves to be motivated. If you wake up, feeling lazy, not wanting to accomplish anything. You're not going to. Its about your mentality. Yes, I agree more than 50% of the projects just fall through and are never finished, but one of the reasons is; NO ONE ON THIS FORUM EVER JOINS PROJECTS, OR HELPS OUT. So its completely understandable why these projects go nowhere. They need backing by the community and other developers.

Yes, students want some extra money; I completely agree this is something you can enjoy; do on your own time and still make some money. But once you start making money off of this, YOU SHOULD TAKE IT SERIOUSLY. Otherwise, your not going to make the money you thought you would. A little bit of planning and dedication can go a long way. Not just with Tibia, with anything.. and thats something most of these people dont understand.. They join a project, give it 2 weeks; then get irritated because they've only completed 5% of the server in those 2 weeks. Well snap, do you want to host garbage or a successful server.

What Im getting at is most of these kids dont join a project because they want over night success and 500+ players. Its not going to happen kids.. dedicate yourself, gain knowledge.. then maybe you can do something successful. But yep, all these kids care about right now is an extra buck so they dont have to go find a job. Which is fine, but why not dedicate yourself to a SERIOUS project that you feel will stay around for awhile, and even if its not; make sure you SAVE ALL YOUR WORK that you did for the server so your work isnt just GONE if the project stops. People get so pissed off when they loose their work that they've done.. personally I always copy my pieces and save back ups so when something like that does happen, im laughing because everything I contributed is in a folder on my desktop.

Its all about your mentality and how you plan things out. Theres no reason why people cant join a project. But if you keep thinking "Im not joining a project because they all just quit after a month" then NO PROJECT EVER CREATED will get anywhere because NO ONE will join the project to help. You get me? Personally thats why I feel so many project fall through, because its just the one guy doing everything.

For example; in 2 months (during summer break); if I still cant find active people to join my project (Team of 2 right now).. Aragon might just turn into a side project that I'll just work on by myself. Because right now, I dedicate so much of my time into my project; get so many compliments.. then when I try to find people to map with, or join the server; they all just act.. how should I put this.. Self-centered? Like they couldnt be bothered because its a project.. "oh it will just fall through, youll never finish this. Im working on my own project"

Thats also another thing, it seems like everyone has their own project. Lmfao, most of you are just slapping a map together (with no thought process) and expecting it to be the next big hit. All I'll say to them, is good luck.

And that was part 2 of my rant. (Had no internet yesterday, had to get it out)

 

[Zisly]

Nice. Ok, here's a proposition: don't go with a private project, instead: help bringing the feeling of community back. Request a board, I'm sure Talaturen will allow it, and get things going. I will contribute with what I can and I'm sure more will. It has to start somewhere, with actual actions not just talk/rant, be an example, right? Do this for the community or show yourself as a hypocrite. There's not excuses according to what you have been saying, fix your mentality and get things rolling. It has to start somewhere, with actual actions not just talk/rant, be an example.

 

[J.Dre]

A lot of Projects have failed because no one joins to help, and it's saddening to see such a thing happen. What if Open Tibia disappears one day because all of the "developers" move on and all that's left are the leeches - who beg for stuff instead of trying to learn for themselves? Not saying it's for sure going to happen, but "what if?"

I try to help out as much as possible (when I have time to do so). I am prepared to help explain the "scripts" and how they work, but 9.9/10 times, the requester never asks. It would be nice to see more and more people get involved in the development and expansion of Open Tibia before it becomes a cycle of 8.60 servers with copy/paste or leeched work. One can only hope...

I myself won't be around much longer as I am moving on with my career and school. Who will help carry the torch? :huh:

 

[Amiroslo]

I will try to help more

 

[Zyntax]

Saying that noone helps requires a big mouth and zero knowledge about the past.

How would you feel if you release your work (be it mapping or scripts) and you experience lazy copy paste idiots which cry and flame you "You're script doesn't work, I'm using 7.4!" When you stated in your first sentence which version your script was tested on. Just an example ofcourse.

Helping people out with your knowledge is indeed a heroic reason, but even heroes get pissed off if the majority of your "customers" are just plain stupid, they DO NOT deserve your help. How you determine who's an idiot and who really wants to understand it but simply can not? You simply can't do that.

Why are most of the "good" scripters/mappers occupied with their own projects? Let me explain by telling you this:
Everyone started with zero knowledge about lua or map editors.
Those people in the past dedicated their time, sweat, blood and tears into LEARNING those things themselfs.
Yes, I did ask at OT communities for help, the differnce between the FAILURES of these days (I call them "customers") and the hard workers back in the old days is: If I found a solution to a problem or got help from elsewhere I then REMEMBERD how to solve not only that problem, but also twisted that knowledge to other problems and thus my knowledge started to snowball because most of the things you learn about maps or scripts are connected to each other.
Basically, you start with one problem and a solution and at the end of the year you can solve A HELL LOAD of problems YOURSELF.

Aight, so far so good, now the funny part began:
You still got your scars and broken keyboards laying around and rememberd your hard time of solving problems and learning stuff.
Naturally, if someone has similar problems like you had you'd help them out by SHARING your knowledge with them. As time progresses you see the same questions asked over and over again, maybe even by the same person. "Aighto, I'll write a tutorial for everyone" <- That's a nice and usefull thought!

And now get this:
As you finished your tutorial, stuffed with solutions to a lot of problems you see around the forums, the "customers" are STILL unable to solve their stuff. Facepalm incoming!
Alright, you're not one to give up that easily, so you deal with them seperately and experience the weird thing called "plain stupidity". You can not help someone who's unable to understand the basics, like you can not teach someone to run if he can't even walk.
It's not that bad actually, you just push him down a hill and he learns to run either way, mission accomplished!
Multiply that by 100 and you can figure your frustration level out.

And now the funny thing:
Exactly those idiots you pushed down the hill are unable to solve related problems they had in the past, nice huh?
They didn't learn anything, didn't remember what you told them to do in situations like that, THEY DID NOT UNDERSTAND A GOD DAMN FACKING WORD YOU SAID!
The funny part: 90% of the forum were pushed down a hill.

Give me a very good reason why in hell someone who earned his skills with pain and effort should run against walls?

So, back to your question:"Why is everyone doing their own stuff instead of joining projects?"
1) There are five or maybe six people on this forum who are capable of leading a project.
I'm not talking about those 1 month failures, I'm talking about REAL projects.
2) Those people are already leading one or got a full team which is currently working for them.
Nothing you can do about that.
3) Gathering a motivated, dedicated, experienced and mature team requires an eight world wonder.
I could go on like this for hours, but this post got large enough, time to finish it.

My answer to your question:
I'd rather create my own project/server/map/scripts and do it my own way even if it requires YEARS to finish it then joining a failure and wasting my time with bullshit troubles every "google"-user can solve on his own. (Except 90% of this community)

Final words: People here are lazy fatass wannabes who think they are gods by copy pasting someone elses work.
You except the guys which matured along with the communities to have a good heart for those idiots?
I'd say slaughter them and let Tibia FOR JESUS FUCKING CHRISTS SAKE rest in god damn peace!

This should be enough for an infraction

 

[Zisly]

This should be enough for an infraction

Not even close to being worth an infraction lol. I agree 100%

 

[Guin]

Tibia get lame
new members are part of the generation of the 'now' and do not want to fight for anything, do not think there is salvation for the Tibia community.
But this is my point of view I think there are many others out there.

 

[Extrodus]

@J.Dre,
Well with you saying that, how long do you have left before your off to goto school. This summer, would you be willing to help shed some knowledge my way. I promise you it wont go to waste, everything you teach me will go into being a helpful hand for the OT community. I honestly would make scripts all day for people in my free time just to get better and expand my knowledge, problem is; I get stuck at so many parts its no use and most of the people I know dont have skype or actully have the time to teach me. So this summer, if you have a microphone for your skype; since I know you have skype; lets make something happen. You'd really help me out, and dont worry I'm a pretty fast learner and I have basic communication skills so you wont be wasting time with me.

@Zisly,
I never thought of actually requesting a board of my own where I can hold try-outs and show the public everything instead of just a mapping thread.. to be honest that would help move things along alot faster and allow the people to see everything I'm doing with the server instead of them just thinking.. oh he's making a map.. cool. NO, I'm compiling different revs, testing out MANY different scripts to make the server unique, creating new items and sprites, and most of all getting ideas together while including the publics demand for stuff they want in a server. So basically I'm getting a server structure together that is completely unique. It kind of deserves a board. I might have to talk to him about that; thank you so much for that comment. Lets hope I'm accepted and people start giving their ideas!

@Zyntax
Oh, I should get an infraction. For what? Wanting to get your real opinion and discuss a serious matter on OTLand. Im trying to bring us together and figure out a way to actually get your projects (including mine) out there, and get people actually contributing and joining. Hate me for it if you want, but its needed right now.

To be honest, its not that hard to lead a team. I know many CAN NOT lead a team, but you just need to understand everyone on the team. Give them their space, find their strong points, best times to work, and go from there. Any team can be successful if you work with the people on more than just your project, you need to figure them out. Thats why most projects fall through, the leader demands to much; doesnt truly work with the team and it ends up coming to a hault because no one on the team feels the determination/inspiration anymore.

@topic,
I think this thread is already helping us get our ideas out. Im glad to see you guys actually posted long replys and put some thought into it. Glad to see you guys are out there and aware of this. <3

BUT I AGREE, one of the main problems is people just signing up and expecting we give them everything they want, no questions. These are the people that need to learn its not like that here.. you need to have the correct social skills and show respect then maybe you might get somewhere.
DO NOT HELP THESE PEOPLE, LET THEM LEARN THE HARD WAY.
You can usually tell when someones just greedy and wants your help with no thanks you. So go with your gut feeling.

I myself, whenever I get help. I always say, "Thank you so much, you really dont know how much I appreciate this." (Because seriously, people are just like; here you go you low life.. cant learn anything yourself only ask for it on the forums) and I want people to just stop helping those disrespectful people who want your hard work with no sympathy for what you go through to make it.

Its ruins it for people like me who are actually trying to find a team for a serious project.

Regards,
Extrodus

 

[Zyntax]

You got me wrong, pal.
I meant "My post is worth an infraction for all the swearing"

I do get where you're coming from but you have to understand that people who are able to help others out these days are simply pissed off without a point of return.
The board which Zisly requested is indeed a nice idea and may attract only those who are actually willing to either learn or contribute to a project.
But , call me pessimistic, it will turn into a failure once again, because of the fact that there are no capable leaders out there.

Understanding people? Figuring them out? Giving them "the right time to work"?
You serious?
If I do that I'd call them my friends and not coworkers on a project.
People tend to forget that creating servers, even if it's just a game, is serious business, not a childs game where everyone does what he wants to and I'm not talking about donation servers where money is involved.
Get real or get out, that's what I'm telling people on project teams because it's the truth.
If I (or someone else) decides to put a team together to have fun and "may" create something, that's a totally different story, but we're talking about "work".
You totally proved my point though, there are NO leaders out there.

I don't mean to flame or cry or insult anyone here!
I'm simply writing my experiences here and facts I encountered over those years.

 

[Extrodus]

Im not argueing with you, but you definitely need to understand and know the people on your team to work with them. Knowing their abilities and their strong points can help move your project along 100% faster. If you cant grasp that, I'm sorry sir; your not worth the time. But thank you for your input, everyone has their opinion.