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How would a non-grind dependant, RPG OT server should look like?

@Eiffel
Even though you reward people for doing things other than grinding monsters via leaderboards. Being on leaderboards will still be a grind. It doesn't really matter what you are grinding, the problem is grinding itself.

Though I will say, a leaderboard that takes all activities into account rather than just experience or just skills would be really cool. What would make it even better is if you could click on someone in that leaderboard and see a graph of some sort that displays what activities they did and what portion of their "score" belongs to each activity.
 
@Eiffel
Even though you reward people for doing things other than grinding monsters via leaderboards. Being on leaderboards will still be a grind. It doesn't really matter what you are grinding, the problem is grinding itself.

Though I will say, a leaderboard that takes all activities into account rather than just experience or just skills would be really cool. What would make it even better is if you could click on someone in that leaderboard and see a graph of some sort that displays what activities they did and what portion of their "score" belongs to each activity.

Well, that depends on what you consider the definition of grinding.

If grinding is doing a monotonous task over and over, then the Leaderboard system would eliminate it.
If grinding is doing anything more than once, then no game will eliminate grinding.
If grinding is the lack of excitement while doing something, then the Leaderboard and other systems would eliminate that.
 
Well I think the grind is a result of having a long term goal. If the goal is to reach level 500, then you will grind experience to get there. If the goal is to top leaderboards, then the grind is w.e it takes to reach and hold that position on leaderboards. When I think of non grindy games, I think of single player RPGs. You typically play through a story rather than grind specific things to reach a goal. Some of these games (open world) can be "grinded", but because it is a single player environment, you aren't forced to grind to "compete", you can choose to play the game how you want. The reason this is extremely hard to do on an MMO is because like you said, most players are competitive so if they want to "compete" they will have to grind. If they choose not to grind, someone who is willing to will always be ahead.

The more I think about this, the more I start to understand why modern MMOs use level caps. Having a level cap and limiting the amount a player can participate in "end-game" activities directly combats the need to grind a game all day every day to stay competitive and starts creating an environment where the players skill playing the game matters more than time. I am starting to wonder if the tibia community would enjoy a concept like this.
 
Some of these games (open world) can be "grinded", but because it is a single player environment, you aren't forced to grind to "compete", you can choose to play the game how you want.
The more I think about this, the more I start to understand why modern MMOs use level caps. Having a level cap and limiting the amount a player can participate in "end-game" activities directly combats the need to grind a game all day every day to stay competitive and starts creating an environment where the players skill playing the game matters more than time. I am starting to wonder if the tibia community would enjoy a concept like this.

Yeah, if you define grinding as the definition of "competing", then any game that has a multiplayer setting is going to have a grind.

If you want to create a level cap for the Tibia community, I don't think it would succeed. From what I've seen, most people only care about the race to the top, not actually enjoying being up there. Not even when there's end game content do people tend to stick around.

It usually goes:

Launch -> Race to the Top -> Server Peaks -> Initial People Quit -> Drifters Quit -> More People Quit -> Developer Gives Up -> Developer Resets -> Repeat

It's why so many servers have seasons nowadays. People don't care about doing it again, the Tibia population is very competitive. Obviously I'm not talking about everyone (I know some RPG servers with 5 players and those 5 players love it). But the majority seems to follow that pattern. It could also explain why Rebirth systems are so common and popular.

The goal most developers strive to achieve is to have an early game that is accessible, slowly turns into a grind without the player knowing, and making sure to please the initial population enough that other drifters come by and compete with everyone. This snowballs the population enough to keep it healthy for awhile. Eventually, it resets though. The only server I haven't seen reset are Mark's and his are the closest to Real Tibia with higher rates people can get. Those people that enjoy Tibia as a release, as a place to relax, are going to enjoy the Real Tibia aspects of both CipSoft and servers like Mark's. But I don't think the vast majority of OT players are like that. They want to log-in and have fun, and then set it down.

Now that I think of it, what the fuck happened to all the War Servers where you logged into a random name and warred? They would be massively popular right about now. I guess the challenge is figuring out how to monetize a server where the whole point is to abandon progression and have people just dip into your server for 2-3 hours a day and leave.
 
Now that I think of it, what the fuck happened to all the War Servers where you logged into a random name and warred?
I swear there was a topic somewhere around otland a while ago about this same thing. I think the reason war servers dispapeared is because real maps started being spammed. Imo most if not all real maps are just longer term war servers, or at least that's how I've noticed players treat such servers.

Yeah, if you define grinding as the definition of "competing"
Well I think the grind is a result of having a long term goal.
 
@Eiffel In my war project i've provided means for people to monetize the server in the form of bonus exp/gold rewards per kill (e.g. you purchase 50 bonus gold kills for $1 and then next 50 kills you make yield an additional gold reward). On top of that you can always offer outfits, addons & mounts.
As @Xagul said though, I too think the decline of war servers is due to the increase in real map servers.
This isn't particularly on topic, but I think war servers need to find a bigger point-of-difference to the generic real map server. This is a challenge that I am going to try and address with my project.

on topic though:
It's worth acknowledging that people actually do like grind and progression. I don't. You're in this thread so you probably don't either. In fact most people with half a brain don't... BUT a shit ton of people do.
My advice is simple - do some research into slot/pokie machines and how they hook people. The same concepts apply to game grind. That's if you actually want to have players. If you're content with no players then fuck it do whatever you want.
 
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That is not common sense, and plenty of successful stories have started 'in the middle of the book'. (actually most stories that are successful start at the most exciting point in someones life, and if the story/movie/book is successful, we then typically move backwards to learn how the characters got to that point, their 'backstory', prequel or origin.) But that is besides the point.

The story in a MMORPG is not the same as a story in a chapter book, or your favourite tv series. The story in a MMORPG is the adventures that YOU as a player experience while playing the game, using the overlaying world as a backdrop to set the stage to your adventures.

NPCs aren't suppose to view you as a protagonist, or some type of hero, but rather as another inhabitant of the world. The way that you PLAY THE GAME, and interact with the world and other players, is the story.

Sure maybe an NPC will tell you about some lost treasure buried beneath the Earth in some old ancient mine. But the story here isn't about you getting that treasure and returning it, the story is about how you explore the cave, deal with the monsters and ghosts, and even other humans you encounter on the way.

It would be even better if you could get to the treasure chest just to see it had already been looted before you. By another actual player. The story than arcs for you to figure out who beat you to it.

The story is a more organic experienced than a penned story, and is a reflection of what the players themselves do.

This is because in an MMORPG, we share the world with other players, so the story is similar to the story of our real lives, it is shared with other people, and is extremely influenced by who we encounter, and who has even come before us.


On your second point.


Not being strong enough for a quest is different than not being 'high enough'.

There have been plenty of games that I have played, that are online mmos, that will block off a quest or an area with a level door, or some other level-block mechanic, just for what is behind the door to have been WELL within my characters ability to handle.

To the point, that the monsters found behind the door were the SAME MONSTERS I FOUGHT TO GET THERE.

The door was not protecting me because I couldn't handle what was behind it, as I had already shown many times over that I could handle the content behind it, but rather the game designer, to artificially extend the length of the game, decided I had to waste X amount of time to get to X level to go on a quest that I was very much capable of handling before I had even hit that level.

If you really feel the need to show content chapter by chapter, and lock out the player from effecting the story, despite the human behind the players ability/skill level, intelligence, or cunningness, than maybe you should stick to writing books, making videos, or making single player games.



As for 'higher level players running you through content', this will occur no matter what, the level restriction only works to delay it.

In most cases, when running a lower level through content, it is to the detriment of the runner, they have to use much more supplies than normal, and take out time to do this.

Example 1 is back when higher levels could block demons for lower levels.

It would take the lower level an extreme amount of time to kill a demon, while the blocker had to use more potions than normal as well to deal with how much longer than normal it took the demon to be killed.

Instead, the quests should be structured in a manner that it is hard to even feasibly run lower levels through the content.

I will see PoI as an example, as it is a common quest that most of us understand, and it is frequently 'ran through'.

To be able to go through the content of PoI, it is of a massive detriment to the runners, they have to waste money on supplies, the extreme amount of time it takes to do the quest, AND make sure people that are coming along don't get themselves killed along the way.

Outside of personal friends, people are charged an amount of money to be ran through this quest.

Despite it being a paid service, and massive guilds running the quest, it is still extremely common for lower levels to die along the way.


But, even with all those checks involved there, people will still say 'It's unfair that they all get softboots in the end, they are just farming the quest'.

I would say the time, energy, risk, and money spent from the runners/blockers is enough to balance out the generation of new softboots, we could instead design the quest rewarding system differently it balance out 'farming'.


Instead of everyone being rewarded the same, we could make it so there is only one chest with the reward, and it worked like a normal chest, meaning there is only one item made. This is how demon helmet/eg quest used to work, before the update.

But people will say that is unfair, then I have another proposal.

Instead of it being a chest that everyone loots, instead there would be an angel statue that you could pray in front of, and if it determines to grant your prayer, you could get the reward. The statue could deny your prayer, and have a set amount of time before you could pray at the statue again. This is personally a way I would like to see quests done, as it gives reason for people to re-do the quest, and cuts down a bit on the farming.

You could also make sacrifices to the statue to increase your chances on getting the reward.


Farming quest items is only a problem on Tibia because items for the most part never disappear on Tibia. If Tibia had a durability system, quest items wouldn't become that common, and the farming of them wouldn't be as big of an issue. Though the reward giving system in the game would have to be designed around the fact that items don't last forever, and there would need to be ways to get items "more than once".


Lastly, and I really do mean this, game designers shouldn't be getting in the way of players playing together, despite the level difference, on an ONLINE GAME. The main point of playing an online game, and what makes them so great is that we get to play with other real human beings, and this should always be the focal point of these games. Locking off players from playing together typically has a big downside of turning away players from playing altogether.
Just got home, quite drunk, but I did read what you wrote. Haven't bothered reading the rest of the thread but I will when I get the time for it I will also respond to you. So far, I feel like you have great idea's and I'd like to hear more from you. I'll try to react as soon as possible, thanks for reaction!

Edit: I think we all should come up with a thread for quest idea's or something, I'm sure that if we combine our strenghts and brainstorm, we could be able to create lots and lots of idea's of a way to create a quest which is fun and interactive. Gathering this into one post so other people could take an example and use the idea's to create their own quests. So far, every quest I've done (quit years ago from real tibia) felt really boring, so I tend to stick to solo rpg games where I need to follow a story. All in all, we need to gather all of our idea's and combine them! I think people will appreciate it as a lot of people think it's hard to be creative with tibia.
 
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Edit: I think we all should come up with a thread for quest idea's or something, I'm sure that if we combine our strenghts and brainstorm, we could be able to create lots and lots of idea's of a way to create a quest which is fun and interactive. Gathering this into one post so other people could take an example and use the idea's to create their own quests. So far, every quest I've done (quit years ago from real tibia) felt really boring, so I tend to stick to solo rpg games where I need to follow a story. All in all, we need to gather all of our idea's and combine them! I think people will appreciate it as a lot of people think it's hard to be creative with tibia.

Yea liked it, maybe a entire board for that
 
I played your server, and came across those doors before I was able to use them due to level. I'd rather you have placed a key item in the game that I had to find, to open the door, rather than force me to level. That's because me actually having to find the key is gameplay, it is something I am doing as a player, something I have earned. Being able to open the door just because I leveled wasn't really additional gameplay, it was me just ticking a box.

Level requirements are still bad, because the monsters in the area should tell me I need to level, not some arbitrary door.
I guess you never saw what is behind the door then and at level 2 you would just have wasted your time and prolly not even understand what is good about the room behind it. xD

However you changed my mind :D
Going to remove the level requirements from these doors and just keep the hardcore mode on it(must have not died)
 
I guess you never saw what is behind the door then and at level 2 you would just have wasted your time and prolly not even understand what is good about the room behind it. xD

However you changed my mind :D
Going to remove the level requirements from these doors and just keep the hardcore mode on it(must have not died)

Depends what is behind the door, Level Doors are not "bad". They just feel wrong to some players.

If a player sees monsters behind a door he thinks he could kill, he feels the door is locking him out of content he is ready for. But if the prize for beating those monsters is a chest at the back of the room that gives 1 million gold coins. Then you need the door.

The door stops abuse of the reward by players clearing the room, and having a train of multi-client or even friends come in to grab the box with no work done.

Honestly, I almost would rather create "Level Cap Doors" rather than "Level Requirement Doors" if a quest is made for level 5 players, the door could make it so level 10+ players can not enter. This way, high level players cannot clear quests for lower levels.

It still "Feels" wrong, but in a game where you progress in power so greatly, I almost feel Level Doors are a requirement to stop players from abusing systems. It is EXTREMELY hard to make a quest that can't be abused if you remove the door.
 
Depends what is behind the door, Level Doors are not "bad". They just feel wrong to some players.

If a player sees monsters behind a door he thinks he could kill, he feels the door is locking him out of content he is ready for. But if the prize for beating those monsters is a chest at the back of the room that gives 1 million gold coins. Then you need the door.

The door stops abuse of the reward by players clearing the room, and having a train of multi-client or even friends come in to grab the box with no work done.

Honestly, I almost would rather create "Level Cap Doors" rather than "Level Requirement Doors" if a quest is made for level 5 players, the door could make it so level 10+ players can not enter. This way, high level players cannot clear quests for lower levels.

It still "Feels" wrong, but in a game where you progress in power so greatly, I almost feel Level Doors are a requirement to stop players from abusing systems. It is EXTREMELY hard to make a quest that can't be abused if you remove the door.
yeah that was the initial reasoning behind it. I got no monsters there. Behind these doors are shortcuts or teleport items.
However I removed them, because I think its ok if a someone is being helped to get to that door.
 
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