How would a non-grind dependant, RPG OT server should look like?

[Azze19]

Hi OTland,

I'm doing this just for fun, please leave your comments here

 

[Flatlander]

Grind happens, when you always have an option available that progresses your character.

• If you can always hunt, people will grind away at hunting.
• If you can always mine, people will grind away at mining.
• If you can always fish, people will grind away at fishing.
• If you can always train, people will grind away at training.

My next RPG is going to fix this by completely randomizing things you encounter in the game.

 

[macedoon]

Experience given by quests
Unlock level caps by finishing quests (i like this)
People don't get experience from a certain monster from a certain level

I don't fucking know XD

 

[Azze19]

People don't get experience from a certain monster from a certain level

That's what I've been thinking too, I guess once you get like lvl 20-30 you begin getting less exp from bears, wolves and the like. Don't know if that'll be hard to code.

Unlock level caps by finishing quests (i like this)

That's quite nifty!

 

[Flatlander]

That's what I've been thinking too, I guess once you get like lvl 20-30 you begin getting less exp from bears, wolves and the like. Don't know if that'll be hard to code.



That's quite nifty!

You can easily code that.

I have it so each monster you kill is counted.
So the first time you kill a dragon, you get 2x exp. (You learn more when it's new)
After that, you will start at 1x exp, and as you continue to kill dragons it will lower till it is at 0.1x exp. (So you basically make it so killing the same monster over and over again isn't profitable)

This doesn't really eliminate grinding, it just stops people from grinding the same monster.
If you have a level cap, or a exp cap, what it does is make people move to another task until they can return.
If the other task is just another hunting place. Then they will just rotate hunting spawns.

1. Kill trolls for 1 hour then goblins for 1 hour (or until level 10)
2. Kill orcs for 1 hour then minotaurs for 1 hour (or until level 20)
3. Kill dragons for 1 hour then vampires for 1 hour (or until level 30)
4. Kill dragon lords for 1 hour then giant spiders for 1 hour (or until level 40)
5. etc

There is no "real" way to stop grinding, since grinding is simply doing the same task over and over again. And in an MMO it is impossible to make a enough tasks so that every day is a new adventure.

Your best bet, is to try to randomize normal hunting, quests, tasks, and events in the server, so that each time is not the same.

If you go to do a quest, and it is the same every time, it is a boring grind. But if it is different each time, it might still be a grind, but it will be much more interesting.

 

[macedoon]

You can easily code that.

I have it so each monster you kill is counted.
So the first time you kill a dragon, you get 2x exp. (You learn more when it's new)
After that, you will start at 1x exp, and as you continue to kill dragons it will lower till it is at 0.1x exp. (So you basically make it so killing the same monster over and over again isn't profitable)

This doesn't really eliminate grinding, it just stops people from grinding the same monster.
If you have a level cap, or a exp cap, what it does is make people move to another task until they can return.
If the other task is just another hunting place. Then they will just rotate hunting spawns.

1. Kill trolls for 1 hour then goblins for 1 hour (or until level 10)
2. Kill orcs for 1 hour then minotaurs for 1 hour (or until level 20)
3. Kill dragons for 1 hour then vampires for 1 hour (or until level 30)
4. Kill dragon lords for 1 hour then giant spiders for 1 hour (or until level 40)
5. etc

There is no "real" way to stop grinding, since grinding is simply doing the same task over and over again. And in an MMO it is impossible to make a enough tasks so that every day is a new adventure.

Your best bet, is to try to randomize normal hunting, quests, tasks, and events in the server, so that each time is not the same.

If you go to do a quest, and it is the same every time, it is a boring grind. But if it is different each time, it might still be a grind, but it will be much more interesting.

Well, there is a difference between a task and a quest. A npc could have several tasks, from delivering goods too finding an item in the wilds too hunting x monsters for the simple pleasure of killing something or getting drops from them too w/e. All of these tasks is 1 quest, or atleast 1 quest line. So instead of trying to create a simple tomb with a chest at the end, try to create a small story through the quest. That way it keeps interesting. Let players come back to the same tomb a couple of times, but each time they have acces to a new layer. I don't fucking know !! XD Just do something different, hell, copy cip softs quests w/e, copy quests from other games.

 

[Deleted member 49793]

Grind happens, when you always have an option available that progresses your character.

• If you can always hunt, people will grind away at hunting.
• If you can always mine, people will grind away at mining.
• If you can always fish, people will grind away at fishing.
• If you can always train, people will grind away at training.

My next RPG is going to fix this by completely randomizing things you encounter in the game.

Love seeing someone think outside the basic mmo box

 

[Sportacus]

Well, there is a difference between a task and a quest. A npc could have several tasks, from delivering goods too finding an item in the wilds too hunting x monsters for the simple pleasure of killing something or getting drops from them too w/e. All of these tasks is 1 quest, or atleast 1 quest line. So instead of trying to create a simple tomb with a chest at the end, try to create a small story through the quest. That way it keeps interesting. Let players come back to the same tomb a couple of times, but each time they have acces to a new layer. I don't fucking know !! XD Just do something different, hell, copy cip softs quests w/e, copy quests from other games.

I actually hate this style of gameplay.

The 'go fetch it' style of 'quest/task' is the most boring, and most punishing of quests an MMORPG can offer.

It is punishing because typically go fetch it quests require you to meet with an NPC to start the task, for example 'Go kill 50 X monster'.

If the player would have explored the area on his own accord, attempting to play the game in the order he sees fit, he is instantly punished for doing so when he meets this NPC, because now he has to go back and repeat something he has already done.

This can be 'fixed' by instead asking for X of an item that monsters drop. HOWEVER, it has to be warned, that most MMOs have a horrible system that makes it so the monsters ONLY drop these items AFTER you start the quest. Thank goodness this practice hasn't been adapted by Tibia or OT Servers.

I must be noted though, that these kind of quests are just minor 'tasks', side quests at best, and while the player can gain from doing these, I don't feel like it is a good idea to surround the game around these styles of quests, as they are naturally boring on their own.

This type of collection tasks should be finished as a by-product of exploring the game, and naturally playing, and trying to solve real quests.



As for the sand tomb having a chest at the end, this is NOT a bad way to make a game, however, as with all adventures, the journey is the biggest part of the game, and this is where most OTs fail, and even most MMOs and games as a whole.

The sand tomb shouldn't just be monsters that you fight, and then you get the chest. This is a horribly simple design, and should be avoided.

Instead the player should have to find keys to open doors, figure out complex puzzles to advance, have to talk to NPCs in towns and collect books to gather information to figure out how to open path ways, or deal with certain monsters.

There should also be action events in the sand tomb, such as simple things as having to time and dodge flame pillars blowing fire at you, or having to jump on sinking stone blocks, if you mistime it, or mess up your step you fall in the sand and either die, or get dropped off in a dungeon that you have to break out of.


The 'chest at the end of the dungeon' quest can be extremely fun, it just you have to design the dungeon to be challenging on not just a 'combat level', but also on an intellectual level, and on a skill level (action events).



Last point is, most dungeons or 'hunting areas' should be layered, meaning no tomb or cave should be designed in a way that only a certain 'level/power range' would ever go there.

Caves should dig deeper offering progressively harder challenges the further you go into it, allowing players of vastly different levels to interact with each other.

Also you can use the 'guardian' monster technique to make a cave more interesting. Pepper in stronger monsters in specific locations to kinda 'guard' an area.

Whats behind the guardian monster doesn't always have to be harder monsters, but rather work as a road block for the player to try to overcome to advance. Players need goals in games, and simple goals of 'I need to get past that giant spider to get deeper into the cave' is a great goal, because there are multiple ways of achieving this task.

Players can try to run it, trap off the monster, brute force it by using tons of supplies to kill it, leveling up to kill it, hiring other players to help deal with it.

Blocking off areas because you aren't on that part of the quest is an awful thing to do, as it is creating level requirements to go into an area... games should naturally and organically prevent, not just the system saying 'NO NOT YET'.

 

[Sportacus]

And as Flatlander said above, "randomizing" the monsters and spawn locations is a natural way to make a game or a quest more interesting to play, and prevents direct grinding to a certain degree.

Grinding in itself is not a bad bi-product of game play, but it becomes bad when the game itself dictates to you that you have to grind, or that grind is the only style of game play there is.

Players themselves should naturally want grind themselves, it should be their decision, not the games.

Recently I went back to play Dragon Quest 1 (Dragon Warrior on the nes), and it had a 'natural grind' to it, but I was the one who decided to grind.

What the game did to me was, the starting area had monsters I could deal with, with little to no problems. But the further I branched out, I would come across harder monsters, I could kill them, but only just. These monsters also got in the way of me exploring the world, which I was having fun doing.

Nothing in the game stopped me from going further in the world, except for the challenge it offered. I could try running from monsters, or blowing all my MP and potions on healing to force myself to get further, but the game itself never told me 'no'.

I naturally wanted to level up and buy equipment because I wanted to see 'what is next'. So that's what I did, and I had fun. It was MY decision to go grind, and I felt that much better about it because it was by my own accord.


MMOs hardly ever do this though.

Instead they typically wall off the game in one of two common ways.

1. Actual Level Requirement- You can't even access this area until you have hit the arbitrary level requirement/time commitment that the game maker has decided to make. This takes away free form exploring, and the natural drive of the player, it forces them to do something that they didn't want to do on their own, and leaves a bad taste in the players mouth.

2. Monsters that max you- You come across a new area or a new monster, and the first monster attacks and BOOM, you are instantly dead. You had no chance to compete against this monster, as it simply had numbers too big for your character to handle. There is no gameplay here, only punishment for not playing the game in the order it was designed to be played.


Because in Dragon Quest, I could naturally come across the challenge, COMPETE with the challenge, and find out that while I can compete with it, I'd do better if I leveled up so I could go further, I was fine with 'level grinding'.

While MMOs have the desire to go further, it just doesn't feel natural as the game itself has forced me to do tasks not because I want too. but because I have too. Only because it is either physically impossible, or numerically impossible to play the game in another way.

 

[Samuro]

Keep giving the players something to do, like quests and mysteries to solve

 

[macedoon]

Create a story for your server. You usually do quests for NPC's, start with that. After each quest, you might possibly forward the player to a different NPC who might need help as well? You could continue in this way, start simple, but the furter you progress, the more you feel like you are following a story. So create a story for the world you created. The player is the protagonist, so who might the antagonist be? Your quests/story might lead you to a cult that wants to destroy the world by summoning a demon (so creative). There might be an illness that turns people into an undead (damn, so so creative). As long as I can follow a story and feel like I'm the hero in this story, I would probably like the game. You will need a way to block a part of the map that should not be reachable yet.

Sportacus won't like this becaue it restricts players from moving to certain area's. Well, I call that common sense, I wouldn't start in the middle of the book, I would start from page 1. And this is how I feel about the level requirements for quests, a little bit tho. If I'm not high enough, I'm not supposed to be reading this chapter. One reason why tibia has level restrictions (this is my speculation) is so that whenever you create a new char, your super duper uber high leveled friends cannot clear the strongest quests for you so you get that super duper uber expensive and stronk item. A.K.A. Let's create 10 level 8 characters, our friends will clear for us and we can grind items this way, eeeeeey. Also what our good friend here forgot to mention is that dragon quest is NOT an MMO. Don't forget, tibia is unforgiving, this is one of the reason why a lot of people fell in love with the game.

 

[Flatlander]

Create a story for your server. You usually do quests for NPC's, start with that. After each quest, you might possibly forward the player to a different NPC who might need help as well? You could continue in this way, start simple, but the furter you progress, the more you feel like you are following a story. So create a story for the world you created. The player is the protagonist, so who might the antagonist be? Your quests/story might lead you to a cult that wants to destroy the world by summoning a demon (so creative). There might be an illness that turns people into an undead (damn, so so creative). As long as I can follow a story and feel like I'm the hero in this story, I would probably like the game. You will need a way to block a part of the map that should not be reachable yet.

Sportacus won't like this becaue it restricts players from moving to certain area's. Well, I call that common sense, I wouldn't start in the middle of the book, I would start from page 1. And this is how I feel about the level requirements for quests, a little bit tho. If I'm not high enough, I'm not supposed to be reading this chapter. One reason why tibia has level restrictions (this is my speculation) is so that whenever you create a new char, your super duper uber high leveled friends cannot clear the strongest quests for you so you get that super duper uber expensive and stronk item. A.K.A. Let's create 10 level 8 characters, our friends will clear for us and we can grind items this way, eeeeeey. Also what our good friend here forgot to mention is that dragon quest is NOT an MMO. Don't forget, tibia is unforgiving, this is one of the reason why a lot of people fell in love with the game.

Sportacus just prefers open world games. Where YOU choose where you go.

 

[Andréew]

I really like to read this thread! @macedoon, you come up with some pretty good points!
i would like to see in a server like this

* quest gives enough experience to make it more profitable rather then grinding
* blocked of content ( like macedoon said you dont start in the middle of a book )
* Good story
* story side quests ( pretty many of them )
* Questlog ( is a must if you want people to follow certain storys like main story and side quests. )
* something else to do like mining, crafting armor, farming and such.
* Daily quests

and then you will also need some "endgame" features such as diffrent events, raids, ( pvp arena?! - not my favorite but still lots of players enjoy it i guess ) you get the point.
something that the player always can achive and progress.
This might just be my opinion but for those who like to unlock and always progress in a game, get all those achivements and get that 100% feeling, would probobly like most of the listed ideas above.

I would really like to see a project like this and would probobly play it. I wish you good luck

 

[Sportacus]

Create a story for your server. You usually do quests for NPC's, start with that. After each quest, you might possibly forward the player to a different NPC who might need help as well? You could continue in this way, start simple, but the furter you progress, the more you feel like you are following a story. So create a story for the world you created. The player is the protagonist, so who might the antagonist be? Your quests/story might lead you to a cult that wants to destroy the world by summoning a demon (so creative). There might be an illness that turns people into an undead (damn, so so creative). As long as I can follow a story and feel like I'm the hero in this story, I would probably like the game. You will need a way to block a part of the map that should not be reachable yet.

Sportacus won't like this becaue it restricts players from moving to certain area's. Well, I call that common sense, I wouldn't start in the middle of the book, I would start from page 1. And this is how I feel about the level requirements for quests, a little bit tho. If I'm not high enough, I'm not supposed to be reading this chapter. One reason why tibia has level restrictions (this is my speculation) is so that whenever you create a new char, your super duper uber high leveled friends cannot clear the strongest quests for you so you get that super duper uber expensive and stronk item. A.K.A. Let's create 10 level 8 characters, our friends will clear for us and we can grind items this way, eeeeeey. Also what our good friend here forgot to mention is that dragon quest is NOT an MMO. Don't forget, tibia is unforgiving, this is one of the reason why a lot of people fell in love with the game.

That is not common sense, and plenty of successful stories have started 'in the middle of the book'. (actually most stories that are successful start at the most exciting point in someones life, and if the story/movie/book is successful, we then typically move backwards to learn how the characters got to that point, their 'backstory', prequel or origin.) But that is besides the point.

The story in a MMORPG is not the same as a story in a chapter book, or your favourite tv series. The story in a MMORPG is the adventures that YOU as a player experience while playing the game, using the overlaying world as a backdrop to set the stage to your adventures.

NPCs aren't suppose to view you as a protagonist, or some type of hero, but rather as another inhabitant of the world. The way that you PLAY THE GAME, and interact with the world and other players, is the story.

Sure maybe an NPC will tell you about some lost treasure buried beneath the Earth in some old ancient mine. But the story here isn't about you getting that treasure and returning it, the story is about how you explore the cave, deal with the monsters and ghosts, and even other humans you encounter on the way.

It would be even better if you could get to the treasure chest just to see it had already been looted before you. By another actual player. The story than arcs for you to figure out who beat you to it.

The story is a more organic experienced than a penned story, and is a reflection of what the players themselves do.

This is because in an MMORPG, we share the world with other players, so the story is similar to the story of our real lives, it is shared with other people, and is extremely influenced by who we encounter, and who has even come before us.


On your second point.


Not being strong enough for a quest is different than not being 'high enough'.

There have been plenty of games that I have played, that are online mmos, that will block off a quest or an area with a level door, or some other level-block mechanic, just for what is behind the door to have been WELL within my characters ability to handle.

To the point, that the monsters found behind the door were the SAME MONSTERS I FOUGHT TO GET THERE.

The door was not protecting me because I couldn't handle what was behind it, as I had already shown many times over that I could handle the content behind it, but rather the game designer, to artificially extend the length of the game, decided I had to waste X amount of time to get to X level to go on a quest that I was very much capable of handling before I had even hit that level.

If you really feel the need to show content chapter by chapter, and lock out the player from effecting the story, despite the human behind the players ability/skill level, intelligence, or cunningness, than maybe you should stick to writing books, making videos, or making single player games.



As for 'higher level players running you through content', this will occur no matter what, the level restriction only works to delay it.

In most cases, when running a lower level through content, it is to the detriment of the runner, they have to use much more supplies than normal, and take out time to do this.

Example 1 is back when higher levels could block demons for lower levels.

It would take the lower level an extreme amount of time to kill a demon, while the blocker had to use more potions than normal as well to deal with how much longer than normal it took the demon to be killed.

Instead, the quests should be structured in a manner that it is hard to even feasibly run lower levels through the content.

I will see PoI as an example, as it is a common quest that most of us understand, and it is frequently 'ran through'.

To be able to go through the content of PoI, it is of a massive detriment to the runners, they have to waste money on supplies, the extreme amount of time it takes to do the quest, AND make sure people that are coming along don't get themselves killed along the way.

Outside of personal friends, people are charged an amount of money to be ran through this quest.

Despite it being a paid service, and massive guilds running the quest, it is still extremely common for lower levels to die along the way.


But, even with all those checks involved there, people will still say 'It's unfair that they all get softboots in the end, they are just farming the quest'.

I would say the time, energy, risk, and money spent from the runners/blockers is enough to balance out the generation of new softboots, we could instead design the quest rewarding system differently it balance out 'farming'.


Instead of everyone being rewarded the same, we could make it so there is only one chest with the reward, and it worked like a normal chest, meaning there is only one item made. This is how demon helmet/eg quest used to work, before the update.

But people will say that is unfair, then I have another proposal.

Instead of it being a chest that everyone loots, instead there would be an angel statue that you could pray in front of, and if it determines to grant your prayer, you could get the reward. The statue could deny your prayer, and have a set amount of time before you could pray at the statue again. This is personally a way I would like to see quests done, as it gives reason for people to re-do the quest, and cuts down a bit on the farming.

You could also make sacrifices to the statue to increase your chances on getting the reward.


Farming quest items is only a problem on Tibia because items for the most part never disappear on Tibia. If Tibia had a durability system, quest items wouldn't become that common, and the farming of them wouldn't be as big of an issue. Though the reward giving system in the game would have to be designed around the fact that items don't last forever, and there would need to be ways to get items "more than once".


Lastly, and I really do mean this, game designers shouldn't be getting in the way of players playing together, despite the level difference, on an ONLINE GAME. The main point of playing an online game, and what makes them so great is that we get to play with other real human beings, and this should always be the focal point of these games. Locking off players from playing together typically has a big downside of turning away players from playing altogether.

 

[Xagul]

quest gives enough experience to make it more profitable rather then grinding

The problem I see with an idea like this is either

1. The quests/tasks are randomly generated which starts out nice but eventually the grind becomes the quests themselves rather than killing monsters over and over.
or
2. Each quest is hand made which will keep it interesting but the developer will have to constantly add quest after quest as people beat them all.

Both situations are fine but in a game with infinite progression (tibia has no level cap by default) the player will always end up grinding at some point (whether in between quests or after all quests are beaten).
I guess what I'm trying to say is, distracting a player from the grind via quests/objectives/activities is certainly a step in the right direction, but I don't believe it will completely solve "grinding" unless the developer is insanely fast at pumping out quest content, and even then, the act of questing itself could still be considered a grind if it becomes the focus point of the server and/or the player doesn't particularly enjoy quests. Whether or not that grind is more entertaining than killing monsters over and over really depends on the players own opinion of quests, and how talented the designer is at making each quest feel unique and interesting. Maybe the best approach is to make quests an alternative to hunting rather than making them far superior to hunting.

 

[Bubblesweeper]

The problem I see with an idea like this is either

1. The quests/tasks are randomly generated which starts out nice but eventually the grind becomes the quests themselves rather than killing monsters over and over.
or
2. Each quest is hand made which will keep it interesting but the developer will have to constantly add quest after quest as people beat them all.

Both situations are fine but in a game with infinite progression (tibia has no level cap by default) the player will always end up grinding at some point (whether in between quests or after all quests are beaten).
I guess what I'm trying to say is, distracting a player from the grind via quests/objectives/activities is certainly a step in the right direction, but I don't believe it will completely solve "grinding" unless the developer is insanely fast at pumping out quest content, and even then, the act of questing itself could still be considered a grind if it becomes the focus point of the server and/or the player doesn't particularly enjoy quests. Whether or not that grind is more entertaining than killing monsters over and over really depends on the players own opinion of quests, and how talented the designer is at making each quest feel unique and interesting. Maybe the best approach is to make quests an alternative to hunting rather than making them far superior to hunting.

In your development for deathzot mostly you do balancing atm and probably work arround adidtional endgame and fix the solutions for a proper working mid game and loot orbs stuff (im not THAT much into dzot so alot of this is an asuming.)

When I worked on Solus we kinda had an entirely developing then you did on deathzot.
You dont think of " uhh lets add this" " oh yeah good idea lets go". You kninda have to probably go like " uhm.. can they exploit this?" "Yup."
But what I actually made this account for was kinda telling you that handmade questlines arent that hard to make & thinking of riddles is what made my development on solusot the best time of my life until now.

When our small base of 50~ people who stayed for 9 years kept discussing the actual storyline I made up and tried so hard to beat the 1 final boss when I announced that SolusOT will be no longer in 1 month and they actually beat it in the end and solved the last point of storyline = Boners.

Ofc deathzot To me more looks like an OT that could have been sooooo good but actually ended up "meh." With all those things that tune down hunting realllly hard because of anti bot systems everywhere.
So kinda grind is all you do in deathzot.

but wtf im drifting away soo much.

Create a core storyline. Some universe, and then add smal storylines into that all the time and this is how no grind starts unless its only collect xx or kill xx missions

 

[Xagul]

In your development for deathzot mostly you do balancing atm and probably work arround adidtional endgame and fix the solutions for a proper working mid game and loot orbs stuff (im not THAT much into dzot so alot of this is an asuming.)

When I worked on Solus we kinda had an entirely developing then you did on deathzot.
You dont think of " uhh lets add this" " oh yeah good idea lets go". You kninda have to probably go like " uhm.. can they exploit this?" "Yup."
But what I actually made this account for was kinda telling you that handmade questlines arent that hard to make & thinking of riddles is what made my development on solusot the best time of my life until now.

When our small base of 50~ people who stayed for 9 years kept discussing the actual storyline I made up and tried so hard to beat the 1 final boss when I announced that SolusOT will be no longer in 1 month and they actually beat it in the end and solved the last point of storyline = Boners.

Ofc deathzot To me more looks like an OT that could have been sooooo good but actually ended up "meh." With all those things that tune down hunting realllly hard because of anti bot systems everywhere.
So kinda grind is all you do in deathzot.

but wtf im drifting away soo much.

Create a core storyline. Some universe, and then add smal storylines into that all the time and this is how no grind starts unless its only collect xx or kill xx missions

You quote my post, but then talk about how we do things on our server. You claim that you created an account to tell me that quests are not hard to develop, but 90% of your post suggests otherwise. This thread isn't about Deathzot, it's about figuring out a way to make a server not feel like a grind.

I did suggest that it would be difficult to create that many interesting quests. Does that mean it is impossible? No, of course not. There are many story driven games on the market today that work just fine. What I can tell you is that the majority of them are picked up, played for 20-40 hours, and then put back down. I was simply pointing out that if a server was developed around quests, it would end up being the focus point of the server and would require a large amount of work to keep up with the community while still producing quality content.

I also pointed out that a server focused around quests could still be a grind. The best way I can explain this is through example.
World of Warcraft has done exactly what @Andréew suggested. The problem is that because quests are the best way to gain experience (and by a longshot compared to grinding monsters) it has become the focus point of the game up until you reach raid content. Questing up to level cap is extremely tedious because after doing several hundred of them, it starts to become the same shit over and over with different context each time.

On a side note related to some things you said in your post...
You are right. Pretty much everything I develop goes through an extremely tedious process of me trying to abuse my own creation because over the years I have learned that if people can benefit from abusing something, they will. Unfortunately it is too easy to create a new account/character on tibia. For that reason (and the fact that I suck at story) I avoid making quests in my projects. That does not mean it's a bad idea or that I think quests are impossible, it's just not something I personally put into my servers. Again, this is irrelevant to the threads topic of discussion.

 

[whitevo]

@Sportacus
At first I though you are talking about my server, but as you went on. you kinda drifted away xD

Ok so. People have already said it what is grind, so you should already know that its impossible to remove grinding out of MMORPG or this would be very short playtrough of such game.
However what you mean by non grind is probably something what Sportacus suggested, a repeated action what player took it on himself, because they wanted so.

Every action or thing what can be counted and has been done several times can be called grinding, although we as players look for massive numbers before go and say: "dude I grinded bosses today, killed 2".

I think most things have already been pointed out how to improve this area so I'm just gona give my view trough their examples:
@Flatlander pointed out dimishing the experience.

Level experience gaining in most server is the main thing players can and should do. This number mostly compares you with the rest of population and measures the strength.
This should be first thing what should be balanced in server before any other thing, but seems to be overlooked in most cases and instead new content is created depending this outcome rather than new content giving value to the experience.

I think the more things developer controls about the server, the better server will be and the easier it is to improve it.

Dimishing return is 1 good way to stop players from grinding that exp from same place and gives them more variety. Pushing players to harder content isn't bad thing, they will still evolve at their own pace, but this way they are less likely loose the interest what ever happens in between, because now all the exp givers has a value.

Level gain depending on the expgiver level is another good solution. But you might ruin fun for some players by rewarding less from doing things they skipped at the start or simply missed something. So you have to be aware of that and more rewards than exp.

What I suggested before was dynamical exp for the casual servers what keep popping out every now and then. Where experience you gain from monsters is dependent on what is average player level and highest player levels and then experience gained accordingly so low levels can catch up and the true botters/grinders have to spend more time grinding or spend time on something else. Like helping others or doing quests.

In Whi World, the experience is as @macedoon suggested. Only from quests and missions. (+ bosses when killed first time) There might some more things what will get exp, but only once.
This means I have level cap in my server. However level in my server is not that important compared to other servers.
I went with this style, because I want my game to be story driven. Players can ignore the missions and quests and can still get somewhere and maybe even complete game with help of others, but that would just a little stupid. Its like playing Heartstone(card game) and refusing to play monsters.
​

In addition @Flatlander suggested randomizing the main activities done in most custom servers (questing)

One of the popular things done in custom servers are quests/missions/tasks. Something you "seemingly" do for sake of the game environment, although have noticed that lot of server don't give the game idea why player does this or that, they just do it because they know they get reward.

One way to go about this is to have lot different of these activities to do and other would be to randomize it. However the idea remains the same in both cases, so doesn't really matter. Although when randomizing you gotta consider that players eventually will care less, because they know machine is making these missions, quests, tasks to them, but if you are making each of them personally it gives a little different vibe to it.

In Whi World I categorized each of these things and gave different meaning to them:
Lore - Everything related to main story of the server
Quests - secrets you find in the world.
Missions - Jobs that npc's give you and reward exp
Tasks - Jobs that npc's give you and don't reward exp
I don't have randomization, I just have loads of these possibilities linked to every area I have in game.

@Sportacus noted that its fairly annoying to go trough area and then find out that npc tells you to go trough that same area and get some things for them. However I don't think its true for all servers.
It will depend on how is the gameplay built. Learning new things about same area even though you already have been there is not repeating it. Yes player might have been better off starting the mission before he went to explore, but its not rly that punishing. First he was rewarded with joy of finding new things, second time he had a purpose and looked the same area differently.

As Sportacus said, journey is important about the quests. I also think that. What I have learned is that, players need lot of clues. Something what may be logical for you is not logical for another person. So while you do the quest, make sure you you dump in 1-3 clues for each part.

Level requirements for areas is not a bad idea imo, but these should be placed down after thinking it trough. level doors give a goal for player to reach. Don't place them because you think player can't handle the area.

For example in Whi World I have 3 level doors hidden in map. Player has to be certain level and not died within 6 hours to pass that door.
The level is usually irrelevant because its easy to achieve. The door is annoying. Yes, but it presents the challenge. Can you get to this door without dieing?
​

There are lot of more factors that can improve the "non-grind" game, but don't think too much about it. Grinding is not bad thing. Just make sure players don't get bored.

 

[Sportacus]

@Sportacus
At first I though you are talking about my server, but as you went on. you kinda drifted away xD

Ok so. People have already said it what is grind, so you should already know that its impossible to remove grinding out of MMORPG or this would be very short playtrough of such game.
However what you mean by non grind is probably something what Sportacus suggested, a repeated action what player took it on himself, because they wanted so.

Every action or thing what can be counted and has been done several times can be called grinding, although we as players look for massive numbers before go and say: "dude I grinded bosses today, killed 2".

I think most things have already been pointed out how to improve this area so I'm just gona give my view trough their examples:
@Flatlander pointed out dimishing the experience.

Level experience gaining in most server is the main thing players can and should do. This number mostly compares you with the rest of population and measures the strength.
This should be first thing what should be balanced in server before any other thing, but seems to be overlooked in most cases and instead new content is created depending this outcome rather than new content giving value to the experience.

I think the more things developer controls about the server, the better server will be and the easier it is to improve it.

Dimishing return is 1 good way to stop players from grinding that exp from same place and gives them more variety. Pushing players to harder content isn't bad thing, they will still evolve at their own pace, but this way they are less likely loose the interest what ever happens in between, because now all the exp givers has a value.

Level gain depending on the expgiver level is another good solution. But you might ruin fun for some players by rewarding less from doing things they skipped at the start or simply missed something. So you have to be aware of that and more rewards than exp.

What I suggested before was dynamical exp for the casual servers what keep popping out every now and then. Where experience you gain from monsters is dependent on what is average player level and highest player levels and then experience gained accordingly so low levels can catch up and the true botters/grinders have to spend more time grinding or spend time on something else. Like helping others or doing quests.

In Whi World, the experience is as @macedoon suggested. Only from quests and missions. (+ bosses when killed first time) There might some more things what will get exp, but only once.
This means I have level cap in my server. However level in my server is not that important compared to other servers.
I went with this style, because I want my game to be story driven. Players can ignore the missions and quests and can still get somewhere and maybe even complete game with help of others, but that would just a little stupid. Its like playing Heartstone(card game) and refusing to play monsters.
​

In addition @Flatlander suggested randomizing the main activities done in most custom servers (questing)

One of the popular things done in custom servers are quests/missions/tasks. Something you "seemingly" do for sake of the game environment, although have noticed that lot of server don't give the game idea why player does this or that, they just do it because they know they get reward.

One way to go about this is to have lot different of these activities to do and other would be to randomize it. However the idea remains the same in both cases, so doesn't really matter. Although when randomizing you gotta consider that players eventually will care less, because they know machine is making these missions, quests, tasks to them, but if you are making each of them personally it gives a little different vibe to it.

In Whi World I categorized each of these things and gave different meaning to them:
Lore - Everything related to main story of the server
Quests - secrets you find in the world.
Missions - Jobs that npc's give you and reward exp
Tasks - Jobs that npc's give you and don't reward exp
I don't have randomization, I just have loads of these possibilities linked to every area I have in game.

@Sportacus noted that its fairly annoying to go trough area and then find out that npc tells you to go trough that same area and get some things for them. However I don't think its true for all servers.
It will depend on how is the gameplay built. Learning new things about same area even though you already have been there is not repeating it. Yes player might have been better off starting the mission before he went to explore, but its not rly that punishing. First he was rewarded with joy of finding new things, second time he had a purpose and looked the same area differently.

As Sportacus said, journey is important about the quests. I also think that. What I have learned is that, players need lot of clues. Something what may be logical for you is not logical for another person. So while you do the quest, make sure you you dump in 1-3 clues for each part.

Level requirements for areas is not a bad idea imo, but these should be placed down after thinking it trough. level doors give a goal for player to reach. Don't place them because you think player can't handle the area.

For example in Whi World I have 3 level doors hidden in map. Player has to be certain level and not died within 6 hours to pass that door.
The level is usually irrelevant because its easy to achieve. The door is annoying. Yes, but it presents the challenge. Can you get to this door without dieing?
​

There are lot of more factors that can improve the "non-grind" game, but don't think too much about it. Grinding is not bad thing. Just make sure players don't get bored.

I played your server, and came across those doors before I was able to use them due to level. I'd rather you have placed a key item in the game that I had to find, to open the door, rather than force me to level. That's because me actually having to find the key is gameplay, it is something I am doing as a player, something I have earned. Being able to open the door just because I leveled wasn't really additional gameplay, it was me just ticking a box.

Level requirements are still bad, because the monsters in the area should tell me I need to level, not some arbitrary door.

While yes, the door itself does me a goal to reach, but it isn't a goal/challenge that I as a player can actively try to achieve or interact with. It is the most basic way of creating a goal. Players gain experience and level up while normally playing the game by their own means and accord. When I come across a door my mind asks me 'well how can I get past it? Do I need a key? Do I need to knock on it in a specific pattern? is there some special password I have to say? do I have to flip a switch to open it? Do I need some priest to bless me to be accepted by the door?' No. All I had to is get more exp. So I have to stop adventuring, stop playing the game naturally, and grind out killing monsters or doing quests to hit the exp requirement. Killing monsters and doing quests were things I was going to do on my own, but have been turned into a repetitive mandatory task just to get by the X exp/time requirement door.

Level doors should be the last way we block off content, and only be used when we can't think of a better, more exciting way, to halt the progress of the player, and do something to overcome the barrier. Forcing me to level, be it repetitively walking in a circle killing the same monsters just to hit a certain level, or playing errand boy to some npcs, are the most basic levels of game play, and tend to be the most boring.

I won't say these games can't be fun, but typically speaking, there are more interesting ways to block content off besides level requirements.

 

[Eiffel]

Here's how I would do it:

Leaderboard

The leaderboard averages the following values and ranks you every day at midnight.

• Amount of monsters killed
• Difficulty of monsters
• Guild share (if you're in a guild and have X amount of people active, small boost)
• Party share (if you're in a party for X amount of time, you get a small boost)
• Amount of money collected
• Amount of mining done
• Amount of fishing done
• Amount of player killing done
• Amount of training done
• Gear score
• Quests completed (Different quests every week)
• Rare items (no use besides rarity) collected

Now why do this?

Well most Tibia players are extremely competitive. Whether it be having the rarest items, best gear, highest level, or most kills, people compete all the time. The Leaderboard system would give everyone a chance to be recognized and rewarded for being competitive, in their own way that they excel.

Some people want to war and kill people. Some people want to collect. Some people want to grind. Either way, you get rewarded. The way the Leaderboard would calculate your score is entirely upon the person (and I won't give out the values I'd use) but it could be balanced enough and obscure that that players wouldn't know what's exactly best.

Killing 1000 monsters wouldn't give you a higher score than someone who killed 100 but also collected money, had guild share, was hunting way harder monsters, and did some mining.

There would be no Leaderboard for individual skills, as that leads to a single mindset. It happens on all servers (looking at all the fisters and fishers when the server has no use for it).

Rewards for Leaderboard Placement

• Housing
• Character Stats
• New Abilities
• Better access to Spawns

The above would not be take into account for the Leaderboard, so that top players don't stay on top just from mere snowballing.

Housing would be sanctioned off to people. Rank 1-10 would have certain house choices. Rank 11-50 would have another set of choices. Rank 51-100 would have the last choices.

Character stats would be Health, Attack, Mana, and Luck. The choices would net you a + amount to your character. After two weeks, if you do not retain your position, you lose the bonuses. First by a half, then fully.

Spawns would be of creatures in the open world, just sanctioned off for certain ranks. None of these spawns are necessarily better, but having access if another spawn is being hunted is pretty good.

New abilities would come in the form of new spells. Sure there's some unbalance in power, but I think it's worth the dedication given to attain ranks. Rank 1 would have a unique spell to his class. Rank 2-10 could choose from a set. Rank 11-50 from another set. Rank 51-100 from another. All previous tiers are given to you as you gain higher rank. (Rank 1 would have access to all the previous tiers, etc)


It sounds unbalanced but this is just a small snippet. With enough time, you could balance it out.