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No vocation server 10.98

unknownuser

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Hi Otlanders,
I will start with Merry Christmas!

I was thinking with my friend about project no vocation. A lot of people complain about balances and all the time talking about that other vocation is better. I was thinking to create small project and build it from zero.

Tibia would be 10.98, we start with very limited addons, mounts and items. It would RPG map with a lot of content and islands. No runes from NPC. Money is not simple to get so players will have to take gps from monsters and make loot bags like in old years. Players can decide what weapon they want to wear for the specific hunt. They can train everything what they want. During quests they can decide what path they want to select if they want to make UHs or SDs for example.

What you think about idea like this?

Regards
 
I have a project like that, but I have no intention to open for public, so would be very interesting if you and your friend embrace the idea you guys have, and I would for sure play.
The first point that I think is very interesting in this idea is that players can use any weapon they want at any time. I used to play tibia and I got bored very easily because it was always the same weapons type and spells and that lead to only one way of playing.
I don't know what are your intentions but I would also suggest for you guys to try to implement new things, like mining, woodcutting, crafting, farming, alchemy and other stuff like this. I feel like tibia is stuck on time and we need more projects out of the box.
 
Just make a server that you would like to play. Then you can enjoy it not only during developing but also while playing it. Eventually there will rise a community with similar taste that will ejnoy playing it too.
 
Money is not simple to get so players will have to take gps from monsters and make loot bags like in old years.
I can't imagine anyone having time for that. Tibia players aren't 12 anymore.

If you want to go in vocationless direction, I suggest splitting equipment and spells to classes:

Base character:
  • Every stat low to allow balancing and specializing through eq
  • low level abilities relatively cheap for every path the player would like to take (good base damage for low level, poor scaling)

Warrior:
  • eq: low mana pool, fast hp/mp regen, hp/armor/melee skills
  • abilities: scaling from armor/melee skills, spells would take % max mana to cast (to prevent abuse from other classes)

Mage:
  • eq: magic level, high mana pool, slightly slower mp regen than warrior, much slower hp regen
  • abilities: scaling HARD from magic level and max mana (to make sure no other voc is using them)

Healer:
  • eq: strongly resembling mage build, but having healing amps instead of magic level and having faster mp regen
  • abilities: strongly scaling from healing amps and mp regen

Archer:
  • eq: encouraging distance - like perfect shot and dist fighting while also providing reasonable defensive values
  • abilities: scaling from dist/requiring dist weapon obviously

spells could also require reaching certain threshold before being possible to cast (like SD being available to 15+ magic level only making them arrive super late for knights)
 
I can't imagine anyone having time for that. Tibia players aren't 12 anymore.

If you want to go in vocationless direction, I suggest splitting equipment and spells to classes:

Base character:
  • Every stat low to allow balancing and specializing through eq
  • low level abilities relatively cheap for every path the player would like to take (good base damage for low level, poor scaling)

Warrior:
  • eq: low mana pool, fast hp/mp regen, hp/armor/melee skills
  • abilities: scaling from armor/melee skills, spells would take % max mana to cast (to prevent abuse from other classes)

Mage:
  • eq: magic level, high mana pool, slightly slower mp regen than warrior, much slower hp regen
  • abilities: scaling HARD from magic level and max mana (to make sure no other voc is using them)

Healer:
  • eq: strongly resembling mage build, but having healing amps instead of magic level and having faster mp regen
  • abilities: strongly scaling from healing amps and mp regen

Archer:
  • eq: encouraging distance - like perfect shot and dist fighting while also providing reasonable defensive values
  • abilities: scaling from dist/requiring dist weapon obviously

spells could also require reaching certain threshold before being possible to cast (like SD being available to 15+ magic level only making them arrive super late for knights)
There are plenty of young players and people do have time. Its the want to spend the time that's a problem. If a server can actually do well and stay online for 20 years and get the community it needs and there is actual "value" to playing the game. People will play it.

OP
Don't look to specific people for ideas for a game. You are supposed to create a game and host it to see if people like it. You will never make a master piece by making other peoples game and mixing it with your own. No vocations could be good, it could also be completely garbage.
 
Thank you guys for your opinions! Appreciate this!
Let me add some details how I can see this.
  • One vocation which will have 10hp/10mp per level
  • Can use all weapons/equipment
  • Can train all skills melee/dist/mlv
  • DMG mostly based on specified skill
  • Can decide who you want to be on specified hunt/boss (for example if you want to be blocked you wear equpiment with better armor etc, if you want to be healer you wear mlv set)

I saw a lot of RPG projects which died after quick time so I want to maybe change something.
 
No vocation system is kinda tricky, needs to be polished af. Funny, Ive created similar thread over 5 years ago. No vocations server? (https://otland.net/threads/no-vocations-server.243556/) And to be honest, i still have it somewhere in my head, but have lack of ideas to make it right.

There are a lot of things you must consider. Balance, feeling, fun and probably more. Perhaps after some time, there will be "soft vocations" anyway, like you have builds in other games.
To make this kind of server not boring, there has to be some way to determinate player's game styles. The first thing that comes to mind is eq-oriented mechanics, like spliting eq to light/medium/heavy categories, where Light armors have less defense, but are more "magician", Heavy armors are, well, heavy (costs a lot of cap), but gives a lot of survivality (health, armor, damage reduction etc.).
But this is only an equipment. What about spells? Talent trees? Abilities attached to the weapons?

Even if you figure a solution for it, here comes feeling and fun. Actually the entire world has to be synergised with EVERY mechanic in that kind of ot.
You need to balance it PERFECTLY. Otherwise there might come an "unicorn build", where you have strong survivality, strong physical (melee or range) damage and also a lot of magic potential, which drives "no vocation system" to "only one viable vocation". And I havent even thought about PvP aspect in that. Imagine being a medium dps VS high defense tank with a lot of self-regen spells.

Must be mentioned, that players got lazy these days. There is something called "Paradox of Choice - More is Less". I said about builds earlier. People don't want to, or don't know how to, or don't have a time for thinking, analyzing, trying. If you have a lot of options, you don't know what to choose, you getting lost, eventually you giving up.

I probably mumbling, but I do think there are a lot of things you have to think about in this type of idea.
 
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Must be mentioned, that players got lazy these days. There is something called "Paradox of Choice - More is Less"
Sometimes there is no choice, like in Skyrim. You're stealth archer. No build can match this one. While it doesn't matter much for single player games, this is an exemplary balance problem to consider in a mmo.
 
What I'm about to say is what I did on my private server, so what I'm saying is that you don't have to follow the way I'm suggesting, but is tha way that works for me.
In my non vocation server I did this things:

- Player won't receive mana, neither health when level up, itens will give players mana and health. For this to work, I divided the itens into 3 categories, heavy (give health and has the highest protection of all itens, but each heavy piece slow the character in 10 points, it's used by player that want to tank), light (give mana and has the lowerst protection of all itens, but each light piece increase character movement in 10 points) and medium (gives the player health and mana, but way lower than heavy and light itens and doesn't affect the player movement). I think that doing this way, no player will be like another, each player will have their own build, their own amount of life and mana.

- Spells are specific to weapons, if player has a sword, it can only cast sword spells, if player has a bow, it can only cast bow spells and so on.

- Monsters have warning system to certain spells, so player can avoid the damage, that makes the game more flexible, the players won't just stand still and kill the monsters.

- Several systems, like farm, building your own house, minig, woodcutting, crafting, harvesting, creating potions, food.... That will increase the amount of things players can do, increasing the number of players in your server. If the player want to focus on colecting materials to do potions and sell them, it will be a way of the player doing some money, in other words this can solve the problem that @zbizu mentioned.

And also keep in mind that you won't be able to make everyone happy, so do things your way and enjoy it
 
What I'm about to say is what I did on my private server, so what I'm saying is that you don't have to follow the way I'm suggesting, but is tha way that works for me.
In my non vocation server I did this things:

- Player won't receive mana, neither health when level up, itens will give players mana and health. For this to work, I divided the itens into 3 categories, heavy (give health and has the highest protection of all itens, but each heavy piece slow the character in 10 points, it's used by player that want to tank), light (give mana and has the lowerst protection of all itens, but each light piece increase character movement in 10 points) and medium (gives the player health and mana, but way lower than heavy and light itens and doesn't affect the player movement). I think that doing this way, no player will be like another, each player will have their own build, their own amount of life and mana.

- Spells are specific to weapons, if player has a sword, it can only cast sword spells, if player has a bow, it can only cast bow spells and so on.

- Monsters have warning system to certain spells, so player can avoid the damage, that makes the game more flexible, the players won't just stand still and kill the monsters.

- Several systems, like farm, building your own house, minig, woodcutting, crafting, harvesting, creating potions, food.... That will increase the amount of things players can do, increasing the number of players in your server. If the player want to focus on colecting materials to do potions and sell them, it will be a way of the player doing some money, in other words this can solve the problem that @zbizu mentioned.

And also keep in mind that you won't be able to make everyone happy, so do things your way and enjoy it
This is the solution I came up with, but there is still a problem: Regular Tibia skills (sword/club/axe, dist, shield etc.) don't work well with no vocations.

Now you can either make them more modern, with Vitality/Magic/Agility/Strength/Dexterity/Intelligence/more/attributes but this clashes with items giving stats, will be a nightmare to balance and you have to implement some kind of progression or skill point system and you have no idea if it will even be fun or simple enough for players. Or you use the old skills for other systes like mining or crafting but then what's the point of gaining levels?

Either way I think we're onto something
 
This is the solution I came up with, but there is still a problem: Regular Tibia skills (sword/club/axe, dist, shield etc.) don't work well with no vocations.
What you mean? What this would don't work?
 
Player won't receive mana, neither health when level up, itens will give players mana and health. I think that doing this way, no player will be like another, each player will have their own build, their own amount of life and mana.
no you get players switching equipment 10 times a minute

I was thinking with my friend about project no vocation. A lot of people complain about balances and all the time talking about that other vocation is better. I was thinking to create small project and build it from zero.
without vocation the best char imo
  • distributes the 45 points on level up evenly: 15 hp, 15 mana, 15 cap; resulting in 1k each at level 70+ good for close range combat with top spells
  • regenerates the fastest mana and slowest hitpoints, like a promoted mage, to use spells, make runes and gain magic levels as much as possible
  • magic is the strongest weapon, other skills are secondary but useful
  • as for equipment, armor and speed are most efficient
 
no you get players switching equipment 10 times a minute
You can allow players to change their equipment only out of combat or even in specific places like depot.

without vocation the best char imo
  • distributes the 45 points on level up evenly: 15 hp, 15 mana, 15 cap; resulting in 1k each at level 70+ good for close range combat with top spells
  • regenerates the fastest mana and slowest hitpoints, like a promoted mage, to use spells, make runes and gain magic levels as much as possible
  • magic is the strongest weapon, other skills are secondary but useful
  • as for equipment, armor and speed are most efficient

That's why you have to set entire world up to that, like increase monsters' damage etc. And imho, numbers you've suggested are unbalanced - in rl tibia EK gains 15 hp per level and we call it "tanky". I was thinking like around 10 HP, 5 Mana (or even 0, depends on entire magic system) and 20 Cap per level (in my mind tanky items should be heavy, so cap is an another limitation). Eq is meant to be that thing which determinate your "soft vocation".
 
imho, numbers you've suggested are unbalanced - in rl tibia EK gains 15 hp per level and we call it "tanky". I was thinking like around 10 HP, 5 Mana (or even 0, depends on entire magic system) and 20 Cap
how are 3 equal values unbalanced

in tibia each vocation gets 45 points each level, to increase their amount of capacity, hitpoints, and mana.

so, i was thinking what the strongest possible build would be out of every available combination.
 
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But in Tibia there are vocations, y'know. It can't be done the exact same way as it is in RL :p
 
With custom map made from scratch, monsters made from scratch etc. still not sure but it could work.
 
It can work and be extremely fun. It really helps if you can also balance it in a way where you can sustain your own character so then rune farming or farming whatever is relevant using alts is not the meta as it is with most 'rpg' servers. This increases player interaction and provides a better overall experience for everyone.

The main problem and focus of balancing efforts would be equipment switching, you can't let there be a significant advantage to eq switch during a fight otherwise people will macro that shit and dominate also you also don't want players to feel forced in to taking multiple sets out with them because this directly contradicts "you can be anything". It's also very easy to say "you can be anything" but if there's a clear and strong meta then the reality is that all this freedom means nothing and is a waste of time.
 
You have to ask yourself WHY is it that you want a server with no vocations, or what is your goal for going that route? If it's because you think it will be more balanced then you might be right in a sense if you plan to make the most basic vanilla server, but who wants that? If you want a fun server that people will actually play then you will have to go the vastly custom route which will be a lot of work and most likely leave more balance issues than regular vocations.

The only server I've played with a "no vocation" system that was GOOD and FUN was Project XDC by Xagul. Every other server I've tried over the years that goes the no vocation route has been garbage, zero fun, and even more unbalanced than having regular vocations. If you want to go the no vocation route, in my eyes it has to be a fully custom server with nothing to do with vanilla content. If you plan to use vanilla spells, items, monsters, etc.. it will be a snoozefest.

I feel like it will be much harder to make a good server with a no vocation system than it is to make one with vocations. A big problem I see is that there is usually the "ideal" combination that most people will go for and then you just end up with a server where every person is taking the same route because it's the best and most efficient build. Funny thing is that the exciting part for me about no vocation servers is trying to figure out the most OP combination of equipment, skills, spells, etc.. to make the strongest character possible which inevitably leads to devs nerfing that combination.

I think Path of Exile is a perfect example, every league there are "op" or very strong builds that people have lots of fun with. They are eventually nerfed while other builds are buffed and it keeps it exciting. It allows players to constantly create new fun builds that are capable of doing content in all sorts of ways. If you are able to make enough customization where something like this is possible in Tibia, that could be extremely fun. Perhaps making a big skill tree and having "classes" that can be oriented towards certain playstyles but also not limiting players as much as a vocation would.

In my opinion, I think you have the wrong reasoning for making a no-vocation server. Like I said earlier if you have intentions of making an entirely custom server with lots of unique features and class builds, then I could understand the idea of no vocations. I see problems with equipment switching, useless builds, PVE vs PVP, lack of diversity, and some other things.
 
The only server in this category that Ive enjoyed so far was Slavic World RPG

Sadly this kind of server is not quite popular and not many players visit them
 
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