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Suggestion Remove otservlist subforum

kay

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As in the title, I'm suggesting to remove that subforum. It doesn't seem like there is any interest anyway, only about 10 posts were sent this year. Not even xinn seems to care at all, as he's not answering there (and lately not even visitting otland at all). Besides, I don't see a reason why this particular service is promoted (esecially when it appears in otland board which may mislead people to think otland and otservlist are one, despite the red warnings inside). Maybe that's one of the reasons why we don't see any proper initiatives in that matter - because it looks like otservlist has developed a monopoly within otland. I'm referring here to discussions such as: Should OtLand Open New OtServerlist site? (https://otland.net/threads/should-otland-open-new-otserverlist-site.272217/)
So if anything, maybe create a subforum for ots lists in general, where admins could post threads about their sites in which the users would discuss them (similarly to "server gala")? Of coruse there would be only several threads at best and probably not much traffic too, but I still find it better to create an environment for fair competition rather than greatly favor one particular service for unknown reasons. Otherwise just remove that subforum.
 

xKrazyx

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make the upvotes and downvotes public. that would make it real spicy. It'd be nice to see who defends this service... for curiosity's sake ;)
 

zbizu

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make the upvotes and downvotes public. that would make it real spicy. It'd be nice to see who defends this service... for curiosity's sake ;)
Or just remove voting and keep likes? This isn't reddit or stackoverflow, we don't need votes at all.
 

xKrazyx

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The lack of response starts to smell like corruption to be honest 🤔
Any response would warrant a defense of the service, whose side in my opinion would have a hard time in a debate given the data that is available.

To defend the service would open up a can of worms into what is a spoof/bot, and if the service is being ran in a way that promotes a free and open community, where the rules are enforced equally among all users, not being about money.

Xinn has publicly admitted that the person who used his service the most was cheating all along, I doubt they want to have that convo.

At this point, Don is active and has responded to many other threads, the logical assumption would be Xinn and the staff here are friends or the Otland staff simply does not give a shit about this thread.
 
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Gsp

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I believe that he owns some of the servers he keeps promoting. Ot community needs a fair platform away from corruption
 

Alpha

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To me it makes no real difference what happens with the subforum, I just find the behaviour of the administration regarding this topic very ridiculous at this point.
Almost 4 months since the creation, with seemingly strong support from the community (most support of any feedback thread by far (almost 4.5x more than the 2nd most supported thread), as you can see by sorting feedback threads by descending votes Feedback (https://otland.net/forums/feedback.15/?order=vote_score&direction=desc)) and it's being completely ignored without any statements

Sye3Skv.png
 

Don Daniello

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We link to that server list (and maintain a forum for it), because their website links to us in the main menu (the specific sub-forum).

There may be may reasons to like or dislike this list but I don't think us having the forum is any form of advertising it. We used to host so-called "Hosted Project Boards" back in the days, and many projects were relying on it instead of building their own forums. Building own forums became much easier and most other boards were retired with the exception of this one, because the website still exists (while other projects mostly ceased to function) and hasn't chosen to build its own forum. Other projects that would have had forums a while back (such as AACs) now use GitHub issues or discussion and also don't need to have such a forum.

The Otservlist board was specifically placed at the bottom of all the forums but since someone assumed that it being in the "Otland" category implies association, it was moved to the "Community Chatboards" category, therefore going up on the list. We don't have (nor need) a dedicated Hosterd Project Boards category to put it in separately, which would also make it more visible and cost more space.

If there was any other server list or really any OT project of any kind willing to have a project board and it would make sense, I'm still open to do that. Unfortunately, we haven't seen any other server list that would actually live long and have any substantial traffic and ask for a project board, which is why this one remains the only one.

Again, there is no association, no sponsoring, nothing to gain for us from having the board. But most importantly, there is nothing to gain from removing it at this point, which is why I'm not removing it.
 
OP
kay

kay

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Thanks for the answer.
What you're saying is basically "we have no reason to keep that board, but we also have no reason to remove it" which sounds exactly like status quo bias. I don't think it's the right logic. In my opinion if there's no particular reason to have it, this makes enough reason not to have it.
We used to host so-called "Hosted Project Boards" back in the days, and many projects were relying on it instead of building their own forums. Building own forums became much easier and most other boards were retired with the exception of this one, because the website still exists (while other projects mostly ceased to function) and hasn't chosen to build its own forum.
The website may still exist, but the question should be whether the board even lives or serves any purpose. We can tell it's long dead, which is the fact you missed in your answer. The last time xinn made a post in otland (any board) was over a year ago. His two latest replies in "report dataspoof" subboard were in 2019 and 2016(!). Two posts in five years, does this not qualify for "retiring" as the other removed boards you mentioned?
Again, there is no association, no sponsoring, nothing to gain for us from having the board. But most importantly, there is nothing to gain from removing it at this point, which is why I'm not removing it.
This may not be the intention, but making a statement that otland isn't associated nor advertising won't change the way it looks and how the community perceives it. And because that service (otservlist) is generally seen questionable (to say the least) it may also affect otland's image in a bad way. The response to this thread did not come from nowhere.
 
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Kaorus

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Thanks for the answer.
What you're saying is basically "we have no reason to keep that board, but we also have no reason to remove it" which sounds exactly like status quo bias. I don't think it's the right logic. In my opinion if there's no particular reason to have it, this makes enough reason not to have it.
The website may still exist, but looking from otland's point of view, the question should be whether the board lives or serves any purpose. And we can tell it's long dead, which is the fact you missed in your answer. I mean there's nobody to take care of it. The last time xinn was active it was over a year ago, he replied in one thread. For the last time before that you'd have to go back to 2018. So the board exists for him to give answers once in 1-2 years?
Also, because that service (otservlist) is generally questionable (to say the least) it may also affect otland's image because of the way how it connects. I mean this may not be the intention, but making a statement that otland isn't associated nor advertising won't change that the way it looks and how the community perceives it. Which this thread kinda shows.
I think, if Xinn dont give a fuck about complaints/question

Well, ¿Why not fuck Otservlist?

Actually this forum have good discussion about how important it's otservlist about
1) Server population
2) Player catch
3) Marketing strategies

You said before something like "Otservlist it's questionable" and other OT owner direct say "It's a corrupted system"

So, how you can post proof and discuss about how is working otservlist? (To warn other server owners not to use Otservlist?=
Well, with a forum and nothing better like one of the most old and better forum about Otserver like Otland

I think, removing this subforum really dont offer nothing but you lose a possible channel to destroy otservlist with facts/proofs

I think, this subforum can be moved to "Advertisement" (Or server gala, weird name xD) forum like a subforum and can have another subforum like "Alternative OT Servlist webpages";

Example, i know EU had a similar project like Otservlist
Probably Brazilian players have something similar but we dont know (and that it's helpful for SA people)
Polish players?, probably have something similar and we dont know (and that it's helpful for NA/EU people)

A chilean guy have an amazing server (pokexmortal) but because it's a "pokemon class server", he cant post on otservlist (and he have 20-30 players with an amazing poketibia server)
Naruto server?
DBZ server?

They dont have a "visible" alternative because are "anime-class server" and Otservlist refuse this class of OT

In that forum, an owner of another OTservlist class web page can offer if is a free service, if have golden banner system, multimedia system (like "clips about each OTs to catch people", example, Arch have a good multimedia support and imagine can get access to trailers in the same webpage), etc

So, all class of alternatives ot servlist can be offered in Otland too

The best way to de-mopolize Otservlist it's propose different class of alternatives to Otservlist
But actually we dont have that, because we dont know if really we have other alternatives (and thanks to Otservlist monopoly, people still using Otservlist like "gold standart" about reference to search OTs)
 
OP
kay

kay

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So, how you can post proof and discuss about how is working otservlist? (To warn other server owners not to use Otservlist?=
Well, with a forum and nothing better like one of the most old and better forum about Otserver like Otland

I think, removing this subforum really dont offer nothing but you lose a possible channel to destroy otservlist with facts/proofs
I don't get your point. If you wanted to talk about it, you could still do it in discussions board. It's not like I'm proposing to introduce censorship to pretend that otservist never existed. But we don't need a whole board for that, which works more like an advertising (intended or not).
So, all class of alternatives ot servlist can be offered in Otland too

The best way to de-mopolize Otservlist it's propose different class of alternatives to Otservlist
But actually we dont have that, because we dont know if really we have other alternatives (and thanks to Otservlist monopoly, people still using Otservlist like "gold standart" about reference to search OTs)
Hence why I proposed to create a more general board for ots lists, groups etc., where each could have its own thread to show off/discuss (similarly to server gala). Otservlist could still have its own thread there but along with the alternatives. I don't see any possible cons of this solution. Otland would be in position of the one who creates an environment for a fair competition, rather than favoring a particular service, so people would stop blaming otland for anything related to otservlist; otservlist would still have its thread (seeing how active their board is, one thread should be enough for that content really), so would the alternatives; and players/hosters would have a better place to get aware of them.

Tbh I think that such extensive board is also one of the reasons why it's so dead. With that amount of content it would really work better to have one thread for otservlist. Check the activity of that "new otservlist" thread for comparison. Of course it grabbed some attention because it's new, but when people can discuss everything in one place (reports, features, suggestions etc.) it works much better, unless there's too much content (there's not).
 
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xKrazyx

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We link to that server list (and maintain a forum for it), because their website links to us in the main menu (the specific sub-forum).

There may be may reasons to like or dislike this list but I don't think us having the forum is any form of advertising it. We used to host so-called "Hosted Project Boards" back in the days, and many projects were relying on it instead of building their own forums. Building own forums became much easier and most other boards were retired with the exception of this one, because the website still exists (while other projects mostly ceased to function) and hasn't chosen to build its own forum. Other projects that would have had forums a while back (such as AACs) now use GitHub issues or discussion and also don't need to have such a forum.

The Otservlist board was specifically placed at the bottom of all the forums but since someone assumed that it being in the "Otland" category implies association, it was moved to the "Community Chatboards" category, therefore going up on the list. We don't have (nor need) a dedicated Hosterd Project Boards category to put it in separately, which would also make it more visible and cost more space.

If there was any other server list or really any OT project of any kind willing to have a project board and it would make sense, I'm still open to do that. Unfortunately, we haven't seen any other server list that would actually live long and have any substantial traffic and ask for a project board, which is why this one remains the only one.

Again, there is no association, no sponsoring, nothing to gain for us from having the board. But most importantly, there is nothing to gain from removing it at this point, which is why I'm not removing it.
Thanks for the response. If you want to keep it, you are the Admin.. Just a few thoughts myself.

1. "I don't think us having the forum is any form of advertising it"
I disagree due to precedent set by Otland staff already. Why is it that other websites are prohibited from marketing their URL's to their paid services/resources, however, Xinn's URL that links to his paid service is allowed to be shown? If any freelancer were to put their specific URL in a thread which would be tied to their paid services.. it would be removed. I have seen that happen many times. Xinns service is a paywall.. any population > 200 must have a yellow banner or be explicitly whitelisted.

1630094231456.png
Any URL on a site will inheritably drive traffic to that URL,. Are you suggesting that having the board on Otland does not boost traffic to otservlist? Were going to have to agree to disagree on what is association I guess..

2. "there is nothing to gain from removing it at this point, which is why I'm not removing it."
this is the most upvoted feedback thread on otland by far? Are you suggesting that the users' votes are not enough reason to remove the board? From what I understand.. this thread can also be downvoted...?

If thats the case.. then what the hell is the point of a voteable feedback section?

3rd.. "Unfortunately, we haven't seen any other server list that would actually live long and have any substantial traffic and ask for a project board"

U1JE9r.jpg



HjAPqD.jpg

Steve Brule GIF by MOODMAN
 
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OP
kay

kay

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There may be may reasons to like or dislike this list but I don't think us having the forum is any form of advertising it. We used to host so-called "Hosted Project Boards" back in the days, and many projects were relying on it instead of building their own forums. Building own forums became much easier and most other boards were retired with the exception of this one, because the website still exists (while other projects mostly ceased to function) and hasn't chosen to build its own forum.
The website may still exist, but the question should be whether the board even lives or serves any purpose. We can tell it's long dead, which is the fact you missed in your answer. The last time xinn made a post in otland (any board) was over a year ago. His two latest replies in "report dataspoof" subboard were in 2019 and 2016(!). Two posts in five years, does this not qualify for "retiring" as the other removed boards you mentioned
No response to this?
Let me again list 3 the most recent xinn's posts from his "Report dataspoof" board to picture how useful it is.

1. 1st July 2019
2. 2nd December 2016
3. 22nd March 2013

3 xinn's posts ago some otland users were probably in primary school. Maduro was preparing for the presidential election. Barack Obama just won his re-election. The Netherlands was the runner-up in football. Tibia was in 9.83 version and exactly 4 years before announcing BattleEye.

Following the pattern we can expect next posts in 2022 and 2025.
 

evulclown

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OT Serverlist is a corrupt cancer on the OT community, born of simple greed and contempt for the community with which it purports to serve. To have a sub forum dedicated to it acts as marketing and essential endorsement of the toxic practices that occur on it. I frankly would not care if the guy made millions off of the site / service IF it provided a net positive to the OT community, which it does not. It's hindered progress and caused a negative spiral of toxic culture. The usability of the site is designed to be entirely not usable, it's been setup in an essential monopoly and it's quite clear the owner is immoral in their business practice at best. This is an attitude that OTland is enabling and consenting to exist and to funnel people towards him. The monopoly status it has was not gained by being the best, but rather by existing first - again OTland is keeping this monopoly existing.
 
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