The problem we have with top list Of ot server list
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Kuzyn
Excellent OT User
Dunno what's going on here, so many MCs? If yes, then it shouldn't be displayes so high...
(all those characters are on different Accounts, first account Archer 1/2/3; second account Archer 4/5/6 and so on).
Utorion - Guilds (https://utorion.net/?subtopic=guilds&action=view&GuildName=Atk Os)
Those Atk [...] maybe are one guild but... really?
@xinn I know that he paid for yellow highlight but that's unfair for other big servers on the list,
(all those characters are on different Accounts, first account Archer 1/2/3; second account Archer 4/5/6 and so on).Utorion - Guilds (https://utorion.net/?subtopic=guilds&action=view&GuildName=Atk Os)
Those Atk [...] maybe are one guild but... really?
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@xinn I know that he paid for yellow highlight but that's unfair for other big servers on the list,
Merrok
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Otserverlist used to be good 15 years ago.
But it hasn't changed in those 15 years.
So for today's standards it's shitty web design, a shitty concept, bad/no checks, the "algorithm", not even links are working properly.
It is also a monopololy, for the simple reason that many OT users are kinda the same and not willing to change and adapt to today's time and standards.
In general, yes it is a scam. But the problem isn't just them (or him actually), it is AGAIN the community. There have been other websites trying to build a competition but even if the website was better, people didn't accept it because they rather stick to the shitty website they are used to. Same goes for for example webdesign of 99% of OT servers. It is sooooo bad. That includes CipSoft's by the way.
But it hasn't changed in those 15 years.
So for today's standards it's shitty web design, a shitty concept, bad/no checks, the "algorithm", not even links are working properly.
It is also a monopololy, for the simple reason that many OT users are kinda the same and not willing to change and adapt to today's time and standards.
In general, yes it is a scam. But the problem isn't just them (or him actually), it is AGAIN the community. There have been other websites trying to build a competition but even if the website was better, people didn't accept it because they rather stick to the shitty website they are used to. Same goes for for example webdesign of 99% of OT servers. It is sooooo bad. That includes CipSoft's by the way.
Nostalrius
Nostalrius.com.br
Hello guys,
I know the owner of utorion and there's no fake players there. The guy is working really hard for many years to get a solid base of players, if you don't believe just play a little and you will see many players everywhere. About @xinn, when my server was reported he connected into my computer and checked everything, so the list looks safe in my opinion.
Regards,
Kevin
I know the owner of utorion and there's no fake players there. The guy is working really hard for many years to get a solid base of players, if you don't believe just play a little and you will see many players everywhere. About @xinn, when my server was reported he connected into my computer and checked everything, so the list looks safe in my opinion.
Regards,
Kevin
Lurk
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yeah I know it's hard to judge someone even when you know them but the owner of Utorion is someone that has contributed a LOT for the community, the guy knows a shit ton of tibia and has an amazing team by the looks of things, he's successful because he's a smart, hard working guy. I actually don't believe he's data spoofing.
Some other servers DEFINETLY are tho...
Some other servers DEFINETLY are tho...
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@CesarZ:
I don't tell server owners how they are supposed to run their servers. They can do whatever they want. The only rule on otservlist is about counting something which we call "active players". If you check uterion's website, you will see that they have 2100 characters logged in, however, they return 1400 active players to otservlist.
The players which you mentioned can be mc bombs or whatever war-helpers players use. What matters to us is if those players are counted properly. By properly I mean only 2 rules:
Those 2 simply rules helps measuring servers population - the factor which matters most to otservlist's visitors.
@Merrok:
Otservlist's goal isn't to look cute. It's goal is to look clean and deliver the most accurate spoof-free statistics.
I don't tell server owners how they are supposed to run their servers. They can do whatever they want. The only rule on otservlist is about counting something which we call "active players". If you check uterion's website, you will see that they have 2100 characters logged in, however, they return 1400 active players to otservlist.
The players which you mentioned can be mc bombs or whatever war-helpers players use. What matters to us is if those players are counted properly. By properly I mean only 2 rules:
- servers are not allowed to count xlogged characters (so basically players who closed a client can't be counted as active ones - for example: clicking exit on trainers)
- servers are not allowed to count mc's exceeding 4/IP as active players (this is to fight false belief about server's population where for example 1 real player logs in 100 characters to the game and it looks like a server is really well-populated)
Those 2 simply rules helps measuring servers population - the factor which matters most to otservlist's visitors.
@Merrok:
Otservlist's goal isn't to look cute. It's goal is to look clean and deliver the most accurate spoof-free statistics.
Mr. Greyshade
Grisig
@xinn You sound like the server owner dude lol. Got a little butt hurt there. Ima leave you alone. i never told these people what to do with their ot. Right now you talking crap.
Merrok
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I never said good webdesign was looking cute. Actually that's rather bad webdesign.
Looking clean on the other hand is good webdesign. It doesn't though. Not by today's standards.
And about delivering the most accurate spoof-free statistics: Yeah you need to work on that. But I don't mind that part that much to be honest. It's not good, but it's not that bad either.
But the information provided is bad and the options aren't good. The list is less clear than an allergen list and you got no good way to filter.
If you wanna find an OT fitting your needs, you better bring time. You will have to filter manually and then try out the 30 OTs you find. Making an account for every single one (mostly without even having encryption, which isn't your fault, I just like to complain about it) and possibly even having to download a custom client.
It's just such a hassle. OTLand's advertisement forum is a better OTServerList in my opinion.
The advertisement is... ugh Yeah... I don't think I need to address that and the prices. Most people should be aware. But the prices I also don't blame on you. It's your choice and they are idiots to pay it. I probably would do the same. Though I would give other choices than you making it less aggressive advertisement.
But I have seen obvious spoofing and violations of OTserverList rules from people who are high paying advertisement customers and do not get punished. It is not that uncommon. I will not name names though if you ask for it now. Since again, it is not their fault, this time, it is yours. And this part is certainly a scam! Not of the server owners, but of the players and the community as a whole.
Edit: From another thread
This. Partially what I said as well. But it nails big problems with your site.
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You can always report them, even here in this topic.
Yep, typical. If you are afraid of someone, you can write me PM.
This is inevitable. How can you find a server which really fits your needs if you have never tested/played on some of them? Stats can be faken, good reviews can be wrote by people who got paid, servers rich in content can have corrupted support. Otservlist gives you a way to pre-filter some servers, however, obviously if you really want to find something which trully fits your needs - you will have to spend some time on testing.
They wouldn't constantly pay for the advertisement like a countdown if they didn't get a good ROI.
Well, this is something which can be added.
Source
Veteran OT User
I'd like to point out that otservlist's rules doesn't really make sense either, they make a rule for 15min "afk MCs", but no rules for botters, so the top of the list is full of servers that allows or even promotes afk cavebotting to get their server at the top of the list.
About other otslists websites having been made, I think the problem is that since people doesn't have much incentive to change to a different otslist, especially with a high chance that the list will likely shutdown in less than a year since that's what usually happens with new websites, and when there's a lot of lists it can be a hard choice which one to go for without knowing all the different options, memorizing their domains, etc.
Only the long lasting ones will be considered true competition, and since they're all pretty new they are not really considered as "serious" as otservlist yet.
The solution imo. is to make a central list of all such websites and let people use this central site to explore new otslists etc.
I took the initiative a couple of months ago by taking over the old OpenTibia Wikia site which hadn't been updated in 10 years, unfortunately I haven't had the time/interest to make much of the wiki yet, but anyone's allowed to contribute if they'd like to use it, otherwise anyone can create their own central website if they'd like to where they can (and should) promote any OpenTibia website.
Link: Opentibia Wiki (https://opentibia.fandom.com/wiki/Opentibia_Wiki)
Merrok
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Wow...
Typical? It is stupid and disrespectful to state names of people who have completely no fault in this topic in public.
Calling that typical is so ignorant and disrespectful itself. In your other post, I actually gained a lot more respect for you. This is gone now.
Like do you behave like that IRL as well? In your job? With customers? Inbetween customers? Ratting out another company who is a customer to another one? There are good reasons names are not being said in public in the majority of interviews and statements. Holy shit...
Reporting is a different thing, but naming for a point...
And afraid? Go read my posts on OTLand. Attacking the owners of big servers and OTLand itself. And now you. Sure I am.
I am picking a fight with pretty much everyone if I see their statements or work as critical.
But none of them ever stunned me as much with their comments as you did just now. And this is not a compliment, belive me. So congratz. Wow.
Ignorant again. "Inevitable". No it isn't. You can add features that bring this down to the minimum.
Stats cannot be faked if you collect them yourself. There are ways to do this.
Reviews yeah.. That's an issue you don't wanna deal with.
Yep, you can filter some servers. Like 5 out of 50.
More options not only for players but also for server owners to describe their server in a meaningful way and give more information that can be filtered by is a way to start optimizing the problem.
You have just now noticed that? For over 15 years I have been waiting for such a feature.
Didn't know you needed to be told this might be a good idea lol
What the actual fuck...
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Natan Beckman
Well-Known Member
I think it is very important that some people are concerned about reporting servers with possible counterfeits.
But it is very ugly to see people concerned about the outcome of others, not that this is the case for you, but I wanted to look at both sides of the coin.
Xinn does an excellent job in verifying, I say that because I was and I am one of the most verified, I believe that at this moment no other server has a verification system to know how many real IPs are currently connected to the server, this system allows Xinn to check the time he wants my servers, having access to that extra information.
The vast majority provide only the information of the rule of 4 per IP that in my opinion already avoids many false results, in fact they limit them.
My servers are available for of Xinn verification at any time, I am not afraid, there is nothing to hide.
In 2014 I started my walk in the otserver area and there were few servers with 1000 online and I confess that at that time I found a great result and even impossible for me to the point of doubting the result of the others, normal, my reality was very limited and it was hard to accept that there was someone with a reality far ahead of my possibilities at that time.
I started to improve my projects, observed the servers above and tried to extract from them, the why the players were playing that server, copied good things and always tried to bring something that was new among the servers who were online.
My current results are the result of a lot of work, I went and I am very persecuted, I spent many nights without sleep and of course, I had a lot of help from many people who went through my projects.
I never worried about the server that was above or below, I have already copied ideas, this is even normal, I always seek and seek to improve my projects and little by little, some results have appeared in the proportions that should appear, generated by all previous effort and continued.
I have been working with Mark Samman since 2014 and he is fully aware of my project in relation to C ++ programming. He was one of the people who helped me the most and one of those that enabled me to have great results, because due to the optimizations made by him, I managed have the freedom to support numbers of impressive online players.
I know that my messages do not prove anything, but I wanted to say a little, I hope that my words in the translator really express a little of what I wanted to say.
Everyone has the same potential! My current results are just an obvious statement, as far as you can go.
Thank you very much for your attention.
@Source:
Of course they do make sense. I can't prove if someone is botting or just ignoring messages, not to mention how time-consuming it would be to check all the players on all servers added to otservlist.
What you say doesn't make any sense. Basically introducing a rule which can't be enforced by me would result result in a lot of topics complaing that some servers were banned and others weren't.
I can't create rules which obviously wouldn't be fully enforced.
I don't know what you mean by "15 min afk mcs". Servers are not allowed to count players which closed their clients (for example: xlog training). Lacking of such rule would result in servers fighting for a top spot on otservlist by logging in characters on trainers (or incentiving their players to do so) which would result in servers reporting 5000 players where in fact there are for example 20 unique players.
@Merrok:
Of course it's typical. People complain about top servers spoofing but when asked can't send any details or proofs. So if you don't want to point them, why talk about that in a first place?
Burden of proof is on your side since you said that I don't ban some top servers (or those who pays me). If you can't prove that - don't talk about that.
"Minimum" is relative. The factor which matters most to my visitors is the number of players online. They receive the information which brings their options to "minimum".
I'm sorry but you have no idea how otservlist works. The only way to collect statistics like that and trust them (to some degree) is to have some sort of very intrusive programs running on dedicated servers where servers are hosted. And I never wanted to go that way.
Otservlist isn't a court and I'm not a judge. I can't prove if a review is real or wrote by competitor or someone who got any benefit to do so.
There are probably hundred of other features which haven't been added in that period. Are you also going to shittalk about them the moment I introduce them?
Are you here to have a constructive conversation which can also benefit you to some degree or fight me?
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Merrok
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Ok one reason is because that is in the past, It does not matter anymore. And I can say it and I will. It could have been without your knowledge. I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Especially since after our conversations now, I do have the impression that you are a bit naive and actually do belive it. So it might not have been an active decision.
Actually as a mathematical term it isn't. So by definition: no
That is possible. But just because it is possible to sort by the most relevant factor, does not bring it to a minimum. That is just a wrong statement and again ignorant. Or naive. I am not sure anymore at this point with you. Probably the latter.
Then you seem to have no idea how IT works. First of all it has nothing to do with how otservlist works. But with how it could be expanded. So that argument is obsolete. It doesn't have to be very intrusive. There are multiple ways to do this. Yes one option would be a straight script checking their data. But again that could be modified if the server owners know what they do. Or an API logging in and checking stuff without actually using a graphical interface (yes this is possible as well), again option to spoof given. But those are just 2 things out of my head right now and I am not even active in that area.
Actually in IT basically anything is possible. Saying something is impossible is in most cases just a "I don't wanna put the effort into it" or "I don't know how to do it". There are rare cases where something actually is impossible.
I agreed with you, you don't need to quote everything. Just leave the things out where it's unnecessary.
We don't need a "Yes" - "I agree" - "Me too" - "Totally" - "Yes" - ... just don't...
Nah I am not shittalking the moment you introduce them. I am shittalking the decades you haven't. Once you have and it hasn't been complained about not being there before, I am just welcoming the change.
Yeah. Because there have basically none been added.
Why wouldn't I "shittalk" that? Like the most obvious things aren't added and you have to be told that that might be an option or a good idea.
I just don't understand.
By now I don't think this can be constructive anymore. You are really ignorant and resistant to change.
Look, I appreciate and respect that you are still active (not talking OTLand but in general). More than you'd think.
But I cannot understand your attitude. That's my real issue here.
Source
Veteran OT User
If you change your perspective from "how I need to defend myself!" to actually looking at the loophole you've created for a second it shouldn't be hard to recognize your rules doesn't actually make sense (inconsistent rules).
The fact is that anyone can just fill their server up with MC cavebotters now and boosts their numbers to the top almost without any effort and you're not going to do anything about it because apparently "you can't prove that they're cavebotting", which btw is false, I understand that accounting for cavebotters gets more complicated than a simple 15 minute afk/remove from online list rule, but that doesn't mean it's impossible, you're basically just admitting defeat before having even acknowledged the issue, which is really just the cowardly way out of a problem, pretending that the problem doesn't exist.
1) You can enforce it, you just have to put in more effort to come up with the systems design, rules and potentially manual effort required to actually come up with a solution instead of pretending it doesn't exist. Hard work, I know, but that's what you're supposed to get payed for, no?
2) You already have a lot of people complaining about their server getting banned and others not, in fact there's practically speaking a whole subsection of this forum dedicated to the topic, imagine that.
3) As it stands you're allowing MC cavebotters (up to 4 players per IP) to be counted as online forever as long as the bot is running. Just take some time to actually consider this fact for a second before jumping to all your defenses. It's a serious issue.
I wasn't telling you to remove that rule, I was basically saying it's a good start, but it's not enough because you're not accounting for cavebotters at all.
Actually there is a rule which prohibits counting mc's over 4/IP as active players (but obviously servers CAN allow people to login as many characters as they want AS LONG as they count them properly) and I can enforce it. For example by simply logging in several characters and checking how the "active players" counter changes. Or by asking server owners to prove the numbers by executing some commands in front of my eyes on their dedi servers (I never ask for direct control).
The funny fact is the reason why we introduced that rule was exactly what you say that "servers can easily do". So in the past there was a server which had logged in like 50 unique players online (in terms of unique PEOPLE/persons), but those 50 people logged in like 800 characters which deceived our visitors into thinking that a server is well-populated. That was a reason why mc-rule was introduced. This is a trade off between not counting all mc's and counting different people playing from internet caffes (which is still very popular in Brazil).
Enlight me how am I supposed to check 1500 single players if they bot or not? The only way is to be sure it to check them one by one (because for example the common rule might be that botting isn't allowed but GM created a special group which CAN bot).
That would require me to create a character, level it to the degree where I can visit all the places and check all the characters ONE by ONE. And what if they simply don't want to talk to me? Should I ban such servers? What if someone just clicked map and was in auto walking state (when in bathroom in real life) and in exactly that time I would be checking that particular character? There is so many edge-cases, so many ways to trick me, this is so tremendously time consuming that basically it's irracional to even say that I could TRY to enforce such rule.
But that's different complains. I was talking about possible people complains that X was banned for botting but i didnt check Y which also allows botting. And that would be VERY common since like I said, it's impossible to enforce such rule. and check all servers.
Source
Veteran OT User
@xinn
Ok, lets address one point at a time.
I have to start by asking a question since the parts of my post that you're responding to (the quoted parts you've included), and the way you're responding/the choice of your focus here, makes absolutely no sense:
In fact I mentioned it literally in the line below the part you quoted me in which you're responding to here.
Ok, lets address one point at a time.
I have to start by asking a question since the parts of my post that you're responding to (the quoted parts you've included), and the way you're responding/the choice of your focus here, makes absolutely no sense:
Why would you assume here that I don't know about the max 4 MC rule when I literally mentioned it twice in my latest post?
In fact I mentioned it literally in the line below the part you quoted me in which you're responding to here.
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