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Do not use/buy OTC V8

Night Wolf

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As my comment on OTClientV8 (https://otland.net/threads/otclientv8.266603/) of @kondra was deleted due off-topic I'm creating this new thread in order to raise awareness on the matter that I have discussed there.

Before you go through all this text, first a food for thought:
How bad your team/project must be in order for your only advantage towards your competitors be "less bugs"? Why big servers and developers are so afraid to share bugs they have solved or things they have improved in the project? How selfish one needs to be in order to download a full project, improve/rewrite a system that could be benefical for everyone? (not only leechers, but also to save time for other developers focus on other parts or the thing that really matters which is his server content).
When did we lost the sense of a open project community and why 'big players' of the development are more and more away from it?


----- Original Comment posted there and later deleted --------
I was not going to waste any time on this because everyone that knows me knows as well my position regarding people trying to get profit from open source projects but I would like to discuss briefly regarding some points that are really bothering me a lot. If by any chance this post is deleted by the moderation, I will understand that this community is done.

1) How otland have kept this topic in the forum? I mean, I'm not even talking about a guy literally trying to scam people for money in a project that still has the sames bugs that regular otclient, I'm talking about a program that we have no way of knowing if it's malicious or not nor which data it collects from you. It may as well be collecting all the passwords that are inserted and trying to hack accounts from your server. Who knows? Even if someone here appears and says "hey, I bought the source and don't have any malicious code" it could just be a different build.

2) Please, for your own good. DO NOT CONSIDER BUYING THIS. Most of the 'optimizations' said we have no way of confirming without the source code so are you really going to waste money just to confirm if they are there or not? Also the moment we start to buy stuff from someone that literally just downloaded a full project from github and changed a bunch of lines we can cancel the open source community already. Under no circumstance this attitude should be endorsed.

3) This project still has SEVERAL bugs from original otclient, and I'm not talking about bugs that are 'hidden' and you need hard debugging skills to find out. Simple things that are missing and if you are a tibia player you could spot very very easily. This only show to me that whenever he was working on this, he didn't paid attention to very simple details and I would definitely take this in consideration before using this client/paying for the source.

4) As some have stated before, this has no use for someone who is a Developer because if you ever find a bug that are in the source you will have no way of fixing it and now you can count with Kondra's support but what if he dies/abandon community?

5) I @#$% hate the fact that iryont have become the 'contributor' of original edubart otclient. Like, he just closed all the issues I have reported just because he doesn't give a shit because his server already got them all fixed :)

I also hate the fact that otland as community don't give a damn about the otclient repository. I just wish I had more time to study its structure and perhaps supporting either the repo or slavi's version with Unity. It really piss me off to see someone charging for edits in a thing that should be the standard for a project. No wonder why edubart just abandoned the project.


Lastly, I would like to invite you all to consider the damage that those shitty attitudes are doing in the community. I have been working with OTs for a long time now (started in 2006 and been here in otland since 2008). When we are developing, our objective should never be to have less bugs than our friend who is also making his game as well. If you find something and you manage to fix it, you have the moral dutty to share the acknowledgement of the issue AND the solution. If you don't, what happens is that every other person who started the development will need to go through the same hell of spotting things and fixing them and we are taking years to evolve simple things from tfs and client because of this.
Like, we all have fixed tons of stuff from tfs and otclient but we don't want to share because others don't share as well. So the people who really have skills to do amazing things for the community, needs to read the whole source of two complex projects just to fix small details that everyone else either have fixed already and didn't contributed or paid something to do. The only people that likes this are the ones that rely on selling the same fix for 50 different people. We all spend more time fixing stuff that others have fixed already than properly developing our game story and working in what makes it unique.

Now regarding the otclient, we should put all our efforts to make it a perfect copy of tibia one because otherwise we will never be able to have it adopted by the vast majority of the otserver community (otadmins and players). So you might understand why people like Kondra are extremely toxic to this achievement even though he have the necessary skills to make a difference (by a glance at his github he seems to be a bachelor in CC) and he's familiar with the structure which is also a plus. I have nothing against him nor people selling specific stuff for servers, but when we are charging for something that should be the expected behavior it's a disgusting act. As a bachelor in CC I find it very disappointing to be working on my server for 6 years now and still spending more time in searching and fixing things than actually developing what will make my server outstand others.

TL;DR version: Don't be stupid and let's share more, that's the only way to convince others to share and help community grow. We NEED stable and optimized tfs and an otclient that is a perfect copy of tibia's one in order for everyone to move on and start focusing their time in developing real custom things instead of regular quickfixes and improvements.

List of bugs that I'm aware of otclient that may be replicable in kondra's version as well:
  • In trade he makes just one column of items instead of two, there's a workaround for this if you resize the window twice but we should try to have this fixed.
  • When you activate the 'Move to Panels' option and moves'inventory window' up and down other window panels it creates a vacumn window panel in the middle.
  • Sell all has 432652137852 bugs, we should rework it or remove this. The functions that gather items from player and from npc are a mess and it creates several possibilities for people to edit the module and creates things that are not checked by TFS side, which will cause crashes. I was able to reproduce:
a) Selling items from other players
b) selling items that are not supposed to be bought from npc
c) Crashing

Reference issue Sell All bugs · Issue #891 · edubart/otclient (https://github.com/edubart/otclient/issues/891) (closed by iryont without any solution)

  • Xp gain still missing from skills tab
  • When opening a new pannel, it should always be created below the last panel, sometimes they go in the wrong order.
  • When opening a modal, the first option needs to come selected by default otherwise you may cause errors/crashes if this isn't treated in lua side.
  • When you're attacking with chase mode, if you move it needs to be disabled and moved to 'stand' mode. Don't know about the v8 otc but definetely in the otland one we still have this problem sometimes.
  • The player light is very odd. This one I'm not sure if the rework done by Kondra have fixed because I couldn't test.
  • In some situations the map flags don't work properly. Can't replicate though.
  • When you send a message to someone, the channel with this person opens but you're not redirected to it as the default client does.
  • Life bar should only be red BELOW 20% health, currently otc is marking as red even when in cip's client your life is yellow.
  • Stack items in client (items on upper floors preventing to click in an item in the screen)
    Reference issue [10.98] Not able to use some items near walls with borders on top · Issue #46 · otland/otclient (https://github.com/otland/otclient/issues/46)

Things to be done in OTC:
  • When you click full map, you need to create a button for 'back' and make ESC button in keyword activate that. Many players that are going into OTC first time struggle with that and re-login because they don't know in advance the keyboard command to toggle between full map and minimized version.
  • Default layout (done in otc v8)
  • WASD working with enter. (When in WASD mode, if you press enter you toggle write mode but when you enter again to send the message you should instantly go back to WASD mode.
  • Addons being checked by default when you are switching the outfits.
 
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Marok

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I totally agree
My project suffered a lot of damage due to OTC's inability to function in the simplest aspects of gameplay. I do not recommend.

if it were focused on something functional without makeups, I would change my opinion. But I think the term Open Tibia is no longer applicable today. =/

--

I just read that you were censored, I don't understand why some members are afraid of the truth
 
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Ascuas Funkeln

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I remember a few years ago there was a conversation in the forum where people talked about encrypt / decrypt etc. in otclient.
edubart replied that this is an open source project and hiding anything is selfish.
For my part, if someone edits open source files and tries to sell them instead of sharing them, then they break open source rules and should not call their project the name OTCLIENT. Because in this way he try to promote own project by the popularity of the open source project. It's just brand theft.
 
OP
Night Wolf

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@Nekiro I always see you commenting and making PRs there and you have done some consistent contributions lately, do not think this goes unnoticed.

I think the main point is not really about Kondra and the moral part of the OTC itself but rather how people are working selfishlyand how this is turning into a snowball of work to everyone of us.

Instead of each dev fixing/improving one thing and sharing it, we have now each dev having to fix/improve everything by themselves. This is very discouraging for whoever is beginning to the point it seems many times easier to start a client or source from scratch then to search for everything that we need to keep an eye on.

TFS should be default tibia source
Otclient should be default tibia client

So any change related to stability, improvements or making things more tibia-like layout should be shared with everyone. Because this is the base of any project so when new people arrive the community they have a solid base to start working with and can only focus on the development of their game's content instead.

If @kondra's only objetive is to make money out of it, he's doing it in a terrible way because the acceptance of OTC today is very bad (because it sucks and because no one wants to start learning a thing from scratch). If his work was shared, more people would be willing to start using and contributing as well. In the end, he could focus not in selling bug fixes for a very limited public that's willing to pay but rather selling specific features that goes beyond the 'standard base' now for a way broader public. The more acceptance OTC has, more servers and more players using it and liking it, the more clients he would have. Unfortunately not everyone was born with a brain to understand that.
 

kondra

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From my point of view otcv8 is huge success and game changer when it comes to tibia servers.
So far it has been used by 60k users (28k with unique cpu and gpu)
In last 24h it has been used by at least 6200 unique users, but some servers like archlightonline and demolidores don't send me usage statistics, so it may be already close to 10k. In next month few big servers will start using it and it will be intergrated with opentibiabr/otservbr-global (https://github.com/opentibiabr/otservbr-global)
For last year I was working on making something great from almost dead project (otclient). OTClientV8, even as partly close source project, is best thing that happened to this community in last few years. You may deny it now, but while you're complaining it's getting more and more users.
So instead of complaining, do something for community and make otclient better, solve some issues, pull some commits. I would be happy do add them to otclientv8 too, whole community will be thankful. If it's good enough I can even pay for that, have $1000 budget for otcv8 improvements ;)
 

Iryont

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I'd like to hear @Iryont side on closing the issues without any reason at all tho

I think overall you were missing the point of me "closing" the issues there. They were either duplicated reports or simply badly formatted. In fact, if you take a closer look you will notice that each issue was properly labeled by me back then for better readability for anyone willing to fix them.

However, fear not, you can now spam it as much as you want as I'm not maintaining the consistency of OTClient repository any longer. Also, since the author itself is not longer maintaining it either it's basically open for new maintainers.
 

Lessaire

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My only problem with this... situation, is I don't see any giving back to the community.
If even one server has paid you $5000, then you can afford to share something back upstream

😠 Your "product" was made on the shoulders of the community. It seems like the only reason you are here is to operate a commercial enterprise. The only product you'd started as as "FOSS" endeavor, a login server, is an auxiliary tool that most don't need, and even that seems like it's intent is to underpin a mid 2000s Microsoft-esque "embrace, extend, extinguish" modus operandi.

Maybe I'm wrong, I haven't been back long enough to be certain, but it's only a matter of time before I spare a moment to take Ghidra to your little telemetrics-ridden binary fork and sniff out a final opinion.
 

Ahilphino

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"Do not use otcv8"
Then give us an alternative. Currently there is none, normal OTClient will never be as good as otcv8, we have seen it in open source for maybe 10 years now? And its still a piece of shit players hate. While OTCV8 runs even better and feels smoother than regular tibia client
 
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Night Wolf

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From my point of view otcv8 is huge success and game changer when it comes to tibia servers.
So far it has been used by 60k users (28k with unique cpu and gpu)
In last 24h it has been used by at least 6200 unique users, but some servers like archlightonline and demolidores don't send me usage statistics, so it may be already close to 10k. In next month few big servers will start using it and it will be intergrated with opentibiabr/otservbr-global (https://github.com/opentibiabr/otservbr-global)
For last year I was working on making something great from almost dead project (otclient). OTClientV8, even as partly close source project, is best thing that happened to this community in last few years. You may deny it now, but while you're complaining it's getting more and more users.
;)
making something great? then explain me why most of the issues of otclient are still in v8 version? You rewrote 2 or 3 systems at best...
People are just using it because we all want the possibilities that otc give and this is due edubart and hrsantiago work and not because of you.
OTC is indeed a game changer but only if people use it. Servers that force their users to use it shouldn't count at all, just ask a regular tibia player if they prefer cip's or otc.

I'm not complaining about the project, otc is great and I will probably use it as well. My complains are regarding the community attitude (and yours as well).The joke's on you in this one pal, you are so biased in your ways of working that you lack the capacity to understand the arguments you just read even though they make a very reasonable point. If I never told you the bugs, you would never be able to identify nor work to fix them and I could enter each one of the servers that use it and exploit it, but this is (AGAIN) not the point here. I could do the same as you, download the otc project, lock myself for a few weeks and do several other improvements (perhaps even make a parallel version out of it?) and charge everyone out of it but this is exactly what I'm criticizing.
Do you want to spend (probably 10 times more) time doing exactly what I just did? Or we can just admit that this ways of working is fadded to fail?

Make it open source, let people contribute and make your sales out of 'special features' outside the 'base' that will be used by everyone.

This is not even my fight, I could probably just stick with regular cip client without any problems (besides the legal one hahaha?) but I'm putting my face here and speaking to your face that we (and other developers) have the power to boost things in an impressive way if we work together.

I hope you understand the impact if everyone else just think as selfishly as you.

So instead of complaining, do something for community and make otclient better, solve some issues, pull some commits. I would be happy do add them to otclientv8 too, whole community will be thankful. If it's good enough I can even pay for that, have $1000 budget for otcv8 improvements
You are literally saying that after becoming famous in the community by selling something that has my commits inside of it...
As of your proposal to get paid for support, fortunately I had studied enough to don't rely on some changes :) I'm only still around because I consider programming tibia a hobby. Just hope you reconsider or in the future we may have more others like you and they will definetely charge more than $1000
Post automatically merged:

I think overall you were missing the point of me "closing" the issues there. They were either duplicated reports or simply badly formatted. In fact, if you take a closer look you will notice that each issue was properly labeled by me back then for better readability for anyone willing to fix them.
Seriously? You didn't even opened the link I have pasted to check. No labels, no comments. You just closed it but in medivia we have this fixed :) The issue itself is following the template and has the steps to reproduce. You are telling this but I highly doubt even you believe in what you're saying... just admit it already you have no need to pose as 'good boy' for others to see.

However, fear not, you can now spam it as much as you want as I'm not maintaining the consistency of OTClient repository any longer. Also, since the author itself is not longer maintaining it either it's basically open for new maintainers.
You were never the maintainer. You had all the issues fixed for your server and never shared a thing. If you could I bet you would have deleted this repo already.
 
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Astrax

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Partly agreed, but unfortunately things aren't the same as several years ago. I don't know what exactly changed, but people these days now expect a "financial compensation" for anything that takes their time, and this is of course not only limited to the OT community, you can see it everywhere else. It seems to me that in the past "recognition" was much more important, and being a top developer for a popular open-source project or releasing a program free of charge for the community to use brought lots of it.

A difficult topic indeed... projects such as Kondra's would have never existed if they were impossible to monetize, the guy himself has said something in the lines of "there's no reason to spend my time (which I can bill at a 'hefty' amount/hr) working on a project that will take several hundreds of hours and will not compensate me in any manner". As selfish as that sounds for an open-source community such as this one, I still appreciate his efforts if it's the only alternative to having a dead project.

Lots of other projects that were very active in the past have met this same fate as OTClient / OTserv in general: development is incredibly slow or non-existent... in a world were programming skills are in extreme demand why would top programmers such as Kondra "work for free"?

One thing that I do have a problem with is that he didn't build his client from scratch, but used an existing community project that had lots of people contributing not for monetary reasons. But then again... don't all these servers out there do a similar thing? they take a distribution, make a few modifications and monetize the %^%# out of it.
 

zbizu

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I just want to suggest completely abandoning otclient in favour of unity one. It's way faster than otc and has much better lights drawing algorithm. Also, it's written in technology that will be used in the future unlike otclient. Ability to create games in unity is much more valuable and universal than ability to just edit otclient. Kondra is only abusing the fact that there are no better alternatives, but if we make a better alternative, there will be no reasons to use otclient anymore.

The progress is literally right below our noses.
 

Ahilphino

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I just want to suggest completely abandoning otclient in favour of unity one. It's way faster than otc and has much better lights drawing algorithm. Also, it's written in technology that will be used in the future unlike otclient. Ability to create games in unity is much more valuable and universal than ability to just edit otclient. Kondra is only abusing the fact that there are no better alternatives, but if we make a better alternative, there will be no reasons to use otclient anymore.

The progress is literally right below our noses.

nice meme, please go ahead and actually try that client XD
 
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Night Wolf

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Did you ever use otclient and otclientv8? Because from your messages I don't think so.
Fell free to join otcv8 discord Join the OTClientV8 Discord Server! (https://discord.gg/t4ntS5p) and ask 820 users why they use otcv8 instead of otclient, maybe they will tell you if you can't understand ;)
Dude your otc just have an alternative version of @Danger II layout and half dozen issues fixed with a new features for debugging and bot.


PS: All fixes have been previously pointed by edubart himself (and incredibly also closed by @Iryont
 

oen432

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nice meme, please go ahead and actually try that client XD
Please read his post again. He isn't assuming that current state of Unity Client is better than OTCv8 but that if we help slavi more with his client, it will be better than OTC or even OTCv8. Slavi did a lot lately with bug fixes, progress is made, it's just a matter of time right now.
 
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Night Wolf

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I just want to suggest completely abandoning otclient in favour of unity one. It's way faster than otc and has much better lights drawing algorithm. Also, it's written in technology that will be used in the future unlike otclient. Ability to create games in unity is much more valuable and universal than ability to just edit otclient. Kondra is only abusing the fact that there are no better alternatives, but if we make a better alternative, there will be no reasons to use otclient anymore.

The progress is literally right below our noses.
I've been worked with unity in the past but to be honest haven't really put much faith in slavi's version at the beginning, will definitely check that and see if I'm able to help.
 

gudan garam

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I was writing a big comment but decided not to post. I'm just gonna get stuff off of my chest.


It is just sad to see that people are dicussing about otclient when, in reality, players will not adopt it if the server is not something completely different from tibia and cannot be played with cips client, something like pokemon or dragonball servers. If you check otservlist, the top 20 servers are 95% Tibia like servers, by that I mean that players do not need a client different from CIPs to player, therefore they will not use OTC.

What saddens me more than otclient, is TFS itself. Don't you guys know you can't open a server with 2k players (like the top servers are pulling off) with vanilla tfs?

If your server surpasses 1000 players online, it is just a mather of time for players to start exploiting shit that thoose servers have already fixed (most of them, if not 90% of them paid for theese fixes). I'm not saying that they must share everything they do/fix/create. Not at all, I'm just saying there are people here on the forum and also contributors on tfs repository that have theese type of changes and simply won't share it. Actually, people I've seen discussing issues on TFS repository that already have the fixes for that and talk as if they are not aware of what it is.

I have myself bought something from kondra and just now checked tfs and otservbr repositories, and that is already implemented (probably leaked, cause that what that community does) in OTServBR-Global and is not yet implemented on TFS main repo, a simple crash bug. This is what saddens me.


Why is no one talking about SaiyansKing optmization stuff?
 

Evil Puncker

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@Slavi Dodo is a beast, he has done so much in so little time :oops:

another client that worth a mention, even if it is not being actively developed, is the one from @fabian766 :


in all my years at otland, I'm still yet to see anyone as talented as him regarding client stuff

(since the owner of Phobos Online created an alt tibia client and released it on otfans I guess lol)
 
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