Suggestion New set of standards for the OtLand community.

[J.Dre]

Hi, everyone. Today we're here to discuss a concern of many, including myself.

It's time we set some new standards for OtLand and the entire Open Tibia community, wouldn't you agree? In the past few years, we've seen a great community decline to historically low levels. We need to hit the reset button and change our ways before things become so unrecognizable, it's too late to change.

We can start with preventing the advertisement of donation-only Open Tibia servers that have been reset multiple times, with clear evidence of corruption, greed, manipulation, and exploitation of kids. The fact that "owners" of Open Tibia servers are allowed to continue advertising and discussing their servers on OtLand after half a dozen resets - with their last attempt being less than 3 months prior - is absolutely ridiculous. They do not care about the OtLand community. They're exploiting it for "donations." So called "donations" have completely destroyed what Open Tibia once stood for. I fear we will never see those days again. But, we can take measures to prevent it from becoming worse. What's the point of being an "Open Source" community if the only objective is to make money? The community does not need people who are copying old threads, relaunching without making any substantial effort to improve their project. These people are the embodiment of what is wrong with Open Tibia - making thousands of dollars, only to reset again in a matter of months. It's entirely unethical. How can anyone expect OtLand to survive when these acts are overlooked?

Donations themselves are not bad and are not the problem. The problem is we're allowing people to exploit the meaning of a donation, and it's happening throughout all of Open Tibia. What has happened? Where did the ambitious and passionate developers / owners go? Why must we be forced into affiliation with this? This has been something that utterly disgusts me every time I go through the discussion and advertisement section of Otland. The meaning of donation has been skewed and exploited so much, it's quite frankly shameful to even use.

We must act now and begin transitioning into a more ethical and sustainable way of advertising, developing, and hosting or ownership - a trend toward what is right by enforcing a new set of rules and disallowing the advertisement "donation focused" projects (with multiple resets) and nothing more to offer the community except shame. OtLand administration needs to step up and implement more rules or guidelines for the entire OtLand community. There are plenty of moderators to enforce new rules. What's the point of having moderators if there's nothing to enforce? It's important we understand that action is what changes things. It is our responsibility as senior members to prepare those who will one day replace us to carry on our legacy by acting as role models for future generations. To change the community will take time... In that I have no doubt. It will not be easy, nor will it be clean, but it is necessary. To change ourselves will take courage, and it is honestly our last hope if we want to save what's left of the Open Tibia community. We need to stop enabling those who are exploiting the Open Tibia community for personal gain and start enabling those who genuinely enjoy Open Tibia for what it is.

Please do not be afraid to post below and discuss what has been mentioned above. I've discussed this future with dozens of members over the years. You may notice I did not mention any project names or point out anyone in particular, but you know who and what I am talking about. There is no denying it anymore. It's time to face what we have done.

Let's set our egos aside for a moment and constructively work to change something.

Regards,
J.Dre

P.S. I would liked to have written more, but I'm going to be late for class. Please keep the trolling, spamming, and offensiveness to a minimum. This is a serious problem. Maturity is something we all can appreciate.

 

[Codex NG]

For clarification from the "kid:" Stating someone is single-minded is not an attack. It's not even an offensive statement. Suggesting one is "simple-minded" is suggesting they are stupid. As you claimed this, it would seem you are the only one here attacking others, as usual. You're just another unproductive, immature member of OtLand projecting his inner hatred onto others.

And as for you not joining my team: Hell, no. I'm not upset. Even other members of my team are glad. Asking you what your name was resulted in a rage-quit from you on Skype. This proved to me that you are not a team player. Red flags went up the moment you expressed interest because I knew you were not who you claimed to be. And this was later confirmed.

Do you not see that you're still making things personal? People like you are a disgrace to this community. It's not about you - it never was and never will be.

I didn't even bother to read what you posted, I care as much of your opinion of this community as you contribute to it.
You just made this thread because you can't find anyone to finish your project for you.. that is all this is about.

 

[J.Dre]

I didn't even bother to read what you posted, I care as much of your opinion of this community as you contribute to it.
You just made this thread because you can't find anyone to finish your project for you.. that is all this is about.

Why must you continue...? Just stop already. Please.

 

[forgee]

Why did you even have to bring this up again? It's been virtually a week since your last squabble.

As you claimed this, it would seem you are the only one here attacking others, as usual. You're just another unproductive, immature member of OtLand attacking others out of self-preservation.

Do you not see that you're still making things personal? People like you are a disgrace to this community. It's not about you - it never was and never will be.

Please explain again how this is not a personal attack. From where I'm sitting it looks like you're the one who just attacked @Codex NG, not the other way around, and unproductive is not the word I would use to describe him.

Just stop already. Please.

Seconded. Can't we all just agree that if we don't have anything to say on the matter of this thread, we keep the snide comments to ourselves. You got off on the wrong foot, get over it.
This bickering in this thread is pretty ironic when you think about it.

How can we improve the atmosphere of the community? I'd say a good start would be to be more pleasant towards each other, do with that what you will.

 

[J.Dre]

Why did you even have to bring this up again? It's been virtually a week since your last squabble.

A friend mentioned that Codex was still posting in this thread, so I checked what he said. It warranted a response. As for how long it took... Well, I'm extremely busy at the moment, and I had his posts "ignored" until this morning. But yes, we should move on now. There has been quite enough of this back and forth nonsense.

Please explain again how this is not a personal attack. From where I'm sitting it looks like you're the one who just attacked @Codex NG, not the other way around, and unproductive is not the word I would use to describe him.

He attacks, I respond. Back and forth for too long...

That last part wasn't meant to be an attack. I suppose it can easily be interpreted as one... My apologies for that. My intention was to be frank with Codex about the fact that this initiative isn't about any single person, nor will it ever be. What is discussed in this thread is about the community. Codex has been targeting my posts for weeks now, drawing attention to himself for whatever reason. "Unproductive" is one of many words to describe Codex. It was the nicest of the bunch, which explains my reasoning for using it.

And yes, there are more important things to discuss, like Chechlowski's idea. But most of the ideas people have shared with me (privately) seem to be what we do after we've set things in the right direction. As I mentioned before, this is going to be a long process. We shouldn't jump to a solution so quickly and hope it works... That's like throwing spaghetti at a wall and hoping it sticks. Rushing to a conclusions isn't the best approach to how the community should repair or rebuild itself.

 

[Beo]

All I see is arguments and no solutions to the problem.

 

[J.Dre]

All I see is arguments and no solutions to the problem.

I created this thread as a sort of test, among other things. The audience hasn't passed. It's unfortunate, indeed. Perhaps it's still possible to head back to the main page and begin discussion again, but I'm not sure. As I implied here, there will be no further attempts made by myself until everyone is willing to "leave their ego at the door." Apparently very few people are.

The first page had great discussions of which I hoped were leading somewhere, then people started attacking me. This lead to more disorder and chaos, and here we are.

 

[whitevo]

I created this thread as a sort of test, among other things. The audience hasn't passed. It's unfortunate, indeed. Perhaps it's still possible to head back to the main page and begin discussion again, but I'm not sure. As I said here, there will be no further attempts made by myself until everyone is willing to "leave their ego at the door." Apparently very few people are.

The first page had great discussions of which I hoped was leading somewhere, then people started attacking me. This lead to more disorder and chaos, and here we are.

*sigh*

 

[J.Dre]

I just find it amusing a person who contributes absolutely 0 to this community has an issue with other people who do exactly the same thing.

I won't enable your hostility against others, but you bring up something important:

You find it amusing that someone like me cares so much about the community? Well, I find it saddening that those who contribute the most to this community don't care enough to take action. In response to your accusation of me not contributing anything to this community: That's exactly what I wanted - people to think I've done nothing. Why? I'm not here to win a medal for most contributions. I'm not here to build credibility or reputation. What I've contributed has gone unnoticed because that's what I prefer. I don't seek approval to continue helping those in need.

@J.Dre This is post is made for you.

You were given opportunity (several times already) to start and lead the course of actions, but you didn't do it.

So put yourself into same bunch of people you are accusing of "destroying" the community.

You claim to be "building" something very good for community, but problem is you are not sharing nor showing it. At this moment very little know what you are doing here.
If you are waiting for the right moment then the moment is now. Even if you have no visual proof as long as you have vision which you think will help us. Putting it out here is already a start.
But you must claim your idea and act towards it.

While you are writing big words.
I'm going to continue with my life project and see what kind of effect is has on OTLand.
I may not go full out on helping the community, but at least I'm adding something.

What is being done outside of OtLand (behind the scenes) is not something I'm prepared to share because there has not been enough progress to ensure it will have a chance. Why would I prematurely announce an incomplete project? If you go through my jobs thread, you will see that my project is devoted to the survival of this community. That's all you need to know.

In response to what is in bold: Taking the lead of anything is not my intention. I'm not hoping to become some cult leader bringing about change to OtLand. The goal is to make aware the issues of this community to every member in order to preserve what we've accomplished for years to come. Open Tibia has the potential to outlive Tibia. Of that I have no doubt. It can't survive with one person making the decisions... This community requires us all to be involved. You just have to be willing to take part.

 

[totolol123]

Maybe OT should fund a new community, anyone noticed that our community is the Tibia community? Tibia is dying and most of us know that. Maybe when OT start your own path, with your own community, new people willing to work for the proud of contributing to the community and not trying to do a self-copy of Tibia, could be the way of reviving the old times when this is a true community.

 

[Beo]

I created this thread as a sort of test, among other things. The audience hasn't passed. It's unfortunate, indeed. Perhaps it's still possible to head back to the main page and begin discussion again, but I'm not sure. As I implied here, there will be no further attempts made by myself until everyone is willing to "leave their ego at the door." Apparently very few people are.

The first page had great discussions of which I hoped were leading somewhere, then people started attacking me. This lead to more disorder and chaos, and here we are.

Sorry Justin but it looks like you have been playing a part in a discussion that is leading no where too.
Focus on the reason you started this thread and stop replying to code nx

 

[J.Dre]

Let's try to bring this back on topic:

After a while, I've been considering some areas of weakness throughout the community that require immediate action and may help set forth a better path and reinforce the structure for which OtLand was built. We all agree that it is in our best interest to work as a community and not allow self-interest guide our every move. If we continue on this path, our community will continue to crumble upon what it once stood. The following changes mentioned are only the tip of the iceberg, most of which require time and cooperation from everyone, including senior staff.

Heading back to the first page, where I mentioned the following:

... "need to begin transitioning into a more ethical and sustainable way of advertising, developing, and hosting - a trend toward what is right by enforcing a new set of standards, disallowing the advertisement "donation-only" projects with multiple resets and nothing more to offer the community..."

We need to begin offering members reinforcement for their actions. Reinforcement being a consequence that will strengthen future behavior. A consequence being a learning process in which behavior is sensitive to. If we are willing to create an environment in which reinforcement of productivity exists, we can turn things around. The type of behavior that leads to innovation and growth through creativity is what we should focus on and inspire others to aspire to. No, I'm not suggesting a reward system (though a reward system may be one option in addition), but rather a system designed around promoting what we see OtLand standing for. We all want our projects to be seen, recognized, and supported by hundreds of people. We begin by offering guidance to new members through areas of introduction and understanding of how things work within this community that everyone can appreciate. Most of us here are self-taught. That's what the community was founded upon: self-edification. But we must change and adapt to how people think today if we want to keep this community alive for years to come. It is quite obvious that kids are no longer motivated to be self-taught. This is something we can no longer ignore. We must now become the teachers. "Spoon-feeding" and doing what others should do for themselves does not help and never will.

An area that requires attention is the restructuring of moderators and other forum groups. For example, the Support Team was a great initiative of which was put together by @Don Daniello years ago with the support of myself. However, I knew at the time that this group would not provide the community the necessary support and sustenance it needs to thrive and evolve without its own form of support and structure. The Support Team was created with great intention and remains an excellent idea. However, there is no structure upon which it operates. It is merely a group of individuals who are expected to help without guidelines or instruction on how to do so, rendering this group more or less just another channel through which "spoon-feeding" may grow. If we manage to restructure these groups and set forth some form of guidelines under which they operate, I know that the support area, and others alike, will return to their original state of usefulness.

Hopefully it is clear now what I think should be done first, and hopefully others are willing to participate in the discussion and provide some of their own opinions on how to proceed. If any of what I've said is confusing to you, please do not hesitate to ask for clarification. There is a need for promoting what is missing through structure and guidance.

 

[Amiroslo]

Just ending this long disucssion as it won't go anywhere at the end. Its like you are looking for the corner in a circle. We are different, every one of us sees this from his point of view, I like that. If we are all the same, the community would be boring. Just let people do whatever they want and if they succeed, wolla! if not... Hope they do next time

My name is Amir

Enjoy your stay on OTLand

 

[J.Dre]

Just ending this long disucssion as it won't go anywhere at the end.

You're not ending this discussion. This "discussion" has been going on for years. Only now I felt it was time to be made public. Hate to repeat myself over and over again, but there are so many problems with this community. It's difficult to find a place to begin. But we must choose a place upon which we may begin building a foundation for what is to come and what we'd like to remain.

If anyone wants to pick up the discussion where it left off, I'm more than happy to do so. Let's keep an open mind.

 

[Delirium]

Money is a big factor when it comes to any game. As @Red mentioned before, your causes are noble but it's something that cannot be done for a simple reason; as long as the majority of servers are like what you described, disallowing advertisement would hinder OTLand's popularity and may cause the foundation of a new community which would be against @Mark 's interests. What can possibly be done is gather a team of notable members and programmers, who have proven their ability in the past, and work on a large, full-scale project which could be a viable and enjoyable alternative to the community.

I, too, despise the fact that most people setup an Open Tibia server with revenue as their first desire (which is what made me lose interest in Open Tibia, aside from the fact that the game didn't actually evolve any further) but this is the way things are nowadays. It will take a joint effort to combat this. Taking in accordance the fundamental laws of marketing, supply and demand should be enough to generate motivation and willingness to create something that revolves around enjoyment and fun, instead of money. And I invoke the supply and demand law because apparently, demand for a fun-oriented server is high but supply is low.

What I think is a real problem on OTLand is the lack of interest a lot of members are having, especially administrators. If I were them, I would probably run more things, such as events and updates to boost the activity. What I would suggest to @Mark for OTLand to truly evolve is to switch from being an Open Tibia community to a general gaming forum or a programming one. Since the userbase is ready, all what is needed is a few board changes and a rebrand. The best way to spread the word is mouth to mouth, that's where the big userbase comes to play. I think that would bring a HUGE boost to OTLand's popularity and if it could be done, I would be the first to fund it and help advertising the new stuff. People who know me can confirm my willingness to help, I was a global moderator for a long time and I truly care for this community. It was the foundation that helped me learn a lot of things and become a good programmer.

@wyzr hi

 

[J.Dre]

Money is a big factor when it comes to any game. As @Red mentioned before, your causes are noble but it's something that cannot be done for a simple reason; as long as the majority of servers are like what you described, disallowing advertisement would hinder OTLand's popularity and may cause the foundation of a new community which would be against @Mark 's interests. What can possibly be done is gather a team of notable members and programmers, who have proven their ability in the past, and work on a large, full-scale project which could be a viable and enjoyable alternative to the community.

I, too, despise the fact that most people setup an Open Tibia server with revenue as their first desire (which is what made me lose interest in Open Tibia, aside from the fact that the game didn't actually evolve any further) but this is the way things are nowadays. It will take a joint effort to combat this. Taking in accordance the fundamental laws of marketing, supply and demand should be enough to generate motivation and willingness to create something that revolves around enjoyment and fun, instead of money. And I invoke the supply and demand law because apparently, demand for a fun-oriented server is high but supply is low.

What I think is a real problem on OTLand is the lack of interest a lot of members are having, especially administrators. If I were them, I would probably run more things, such as events and updates to boost the activity. What I would suggest to @Mark for OTLand to truly evolve is to switch from being an Open Tibia community to a general gaming forum or a programming one. Since the userbase is ready, all what is needed is a few board changes and a rebrand. The best way to spread the word is mouth to mouth, that's where the big userbase comes to play. I think that would bring a HUGE boost to OTLand's popularity and if it could be done, I would be the first to fund it and help advertising the new stuff. People who know me can confirm my willingness to help, I was a global moderator for a long time and I truly care for this community. It was the foundation that helped me learn a lot of things and become a good programmer.

It's great to see you around here again. Been such a long time!

Briefly, just to clarify: I don't want to block the advertising of those servers, but rather not promote them within those sections. There are many ways to do so, but here's one example: Give (tag) projects that are new and fresh with clear motives (other than that of monetary gain) the advantage in these sections. The idea is similar to how OTServlist recognizes those that pay to have more attention. However, on OtLand, there would obviously be no payment required for this special attention. Instead, it would be entirely based on how involved the project is with the community and vice-versa. Moderators (or a new group) may be assigned to monitor servers and the communities reaction. Maybe there need be some form of "checklist" each project must pass in order to be recognized (or branded) as an officially sponsored/supported OtLand project. The benefits of this support can be determined later on. Nothing will change for the others.

Also, I agree with you. This is not going to be possible without the support of the entire staff. @Shadowsong and I discussed something very similar to what you have mentioned there in bold. He thought of a community project that would inspire others to work together toward a common goal and this alone may set new standards for development. In essence, I believe Necronia was a stepping stone toward this idealistic state of OtLand. And to support his idea, I entirely agree. This is why I've started a project that will prove there is more to "real map servers" - being the most popular type - not need be branded with this stigma of boring and "download and run." That it has the potential to evolve into something greater. It's time to look within and stop scratching at the surface.

There is much to be done, and I'm more than happy to work with anyone who's willing to work with me. I've tried to make contact with Talaturen in the past and was blocked by some rude comments.

It's my belief that in order for us to rebuild this community and protect our legacy, we must first change the way we think. And this applies to everyone, including @Mark. It's completely understandable if he's not interested in doing so, as it requires time and energy. But that doesn't mean the ship has to go down. The sad thing is, that most, if not all of the people who have the ability to make this change are unwilling to do so.

It'll be hard. It will take time. But hard is not impossible.

 

[Xagul]

I, too, despise the fact that most people setup an Open Tibia server with revenue as their first desire (which is what made me lose interest in Open Tibia, aside from the fact that the game didn't actually evolve any further) but this is the way things are nowadays.

As we get older, putting the time into creating a unique ot server without the potential profit in mind is just not realistic unless it is a very long term project that more often than not becomes discontinued before its even completed.
With that said, I don't believe this brings down the community at all. In my mind if you want to make more money then you need to put more effort into creating something unique that people want rather than following the sheep and making a real map for example. I guess in my mind, the chase of making money is actually good for the community... It drives developers to make better quality servers and the ones who try to take shortcuts end up with nothing because they are lazy.

demand for a fun-oriented server is high but supply is low.

Demand is high because players want to have fun.
Supply is low because of a number of factors:

• Many people creating servers are new. These people need to take a boring evo server and slowly modify it over time to learn how to do better things.
• Most new people trying to make servers are more than likely young. Making a couple hundred dollars from throwing up a real map/stock evo server is good in their eyes.
• A lot of people are lazy. Throwing up a real map/stock evo server takes no time at all and is the better option in their eyes.
• Capable developers have less time to devote to a project that may or may not succeed (A Gamble). Again like I said before, as we get older it becomes harder to put time into something that doesn't make money.

The best way I can explain this problem is through example.
There are quite a few people here on OT Land that know about a previous project I worked on that I called XDC (aka Project X). The people who played it really enjoyed the server and it was one of if not the most custom server I have created to date. I made the server with fun in mind and tried my best to offer donations that had the least impact on power. (Premium, Addons, Misc such as Multi-Tool).
This server was very fun to work on for a while but soon became an extremely large time investment. I was easily putting in 10-12 hours a day updating, fixing, testing, and interacting with players. On average my income on any given day was less than 1/10 of what I would earn going to work at a minimum wage job, and the hours at such a job would be far less.

As a person who is no longer able to live for free anymore, this is just simply not realistic. I hope that you can at least understand the point of what I am trying to get across here.
Please do not "despise" us because we want to make money. I implore you to at least try and understand that we are able to bring you fun, exciting, new, and unique servers because we are able make money while doing it.

P.S.
This concept does not only apply to Open Tibia. Every game actively being developed must make profit or it simply cannot exist.

 

[Delirium]

As we get older, putting the time into creating a unique ot server without the potential profit in mind is just not realistic unless it is a very long term project that more often than not becomes discontinued before its even completed.
With that said, I don't believe this brings down the community at all. In my mind if you want to make more money then you need to put more effort into creating something unique that people want rather than following the sheep and making a real map for example. I guess in my mind, the chase of making money is actually good for the community... It drives developers to make better quality servers and the ones who try to take shortcuts end up with nothing because they are lazy.


Demand is high because players want to have fun.
Supply is low because of a number of factors:

• Many people creating servers are new. These people need to take a boring evo server and slowly modify it over time to learn how to do better things.
• Most new people trying to make servers are more than likely young. Making a couple hundred dollars from throwing up a real map/stock evo server is good in their eyes.
• A lot of people are lazy. Throwing up a real map/stock evo server takes no time at all and is the better option in their eyes.
• Capable developers have less time to devote to a project that may or may not succeed (A Gamble). Again like I said before, as we get older it becomes harder to put time into something that doesn't make money.

The best way I can explain this problem is through example.
There are quite a few people here on OT Land that know about a previous project I worked on that I called XDC (aka Project X). The people who played it really enjoyed the server and it was one of if not the most custom server I have created to date. I made the server with fun in mind and tried my best to offer donations that had the least impact on power. (Premium, Addons, Misc such as Multi-Tool).
This server was very fun to work on for a while but soon became an extremely large time investment. I was easily putting in 10-12 hours a day updating, fixing, testing, and interacting with players. On average my income on any given day was less than 1/10 of what I would earn going to work at a minimum wage job, and the hours at such a job would be far less.

As a person who is no longer able to live for free anymore, this is just simply not realistic. I hope that you can at least understand the point of what I am trying to get across here.
Please do not "despise" us because we want to make money. I implore you to at least try and understand that we are able to bring you fun, exciting, new, and unique servers because we are able make money while doing it.

P.S.
This concept does not only apply to Open Tibia. Every game actively being developed must make profit or it simply cannot exist.

You got my statement wrong, which is an error on my end because I did not clarify who I despise. I don't despise people who monetize their servers and really bring fun to its players. I despize people who make a server with things they download here, and without putting any effort, they expect to get donations for something unoriginal. To sum it up, I don't like the fact that some servers are made based on the following steps:
1) Download a distribution and a real map.
2) Host them somewhere.
3) Expects donation by putting 0 effort on developing the server.

When I joined the Open Tibia community, I was 12 years old. I hosted my own server and I didn't even add an option to donate. I did this because most servers during these times were totally free to play, with few professionally-hosted servers having an option to donate. Even those, where you could donate, provided a high-quality service in exchange for the donations. Most of the money went for the server's expenses and development instead of being kept as a profit. One of the reasons why the servers were donationless back then is the fact that most people enjoyed working on one and had good ideas. They valued fun and experience more than a few bucks. This was set as an example for the very next few who joined the Open Tibia community. I am not sure why these ideals were ruinned, I don't want to know. It saddens me because I feel nostalgia.

I don't think it's bad to accept donations and give something enjoyable back, I believe it's bad to accept donations and just sit there, doing nothing, watching the money come. If you want to make money however, you should get an actual job. You won't be profiting enough from an Open Tibia server. The scene is dying.


P.S: Are you Greek by any chance or you're just using a Greek user title?

 

[Xagul]

P.S: Are you Greek by any chance or you're just using a Greek user title?

I suppose I should change it now... It was a joke because @Synthetic_ had something similar but now he changed it so I guess it's pointless now xD

Also I do understand what you are saying in both of your posts. What I was also trying to point out in my post is that people who put 0 effort into their server generally have no players anyway. If you look at otservlist, we barely have a full page of servers with 50+ players. Starting on page 2, servers start having totals of around 10~ players. If you look at each one of those low-pop servers you can see that basically all of them are real map+geisor+shop. While this can be annoying to see from time to time, just think to yourself "wow that person is wasting their time".

How much do you need to donate to a real map on average? I would argue that no more than premium is needed in most cases and some servers don't even require that. If these people make 10$ from every character they have online then lets just say if they have 10 characters online there are more than likely 20 characters active. Giving them the benefit of the doubt that each character is unique and not a mc/alt/trainer, that is $200 which is roughly 2-3 months of hosting cost and enough extra for them to go buy a cheeseburger. So basically, half-assed thrown together real maps with 10 players online are barely if even making enough money to pay for hosting. The same half-assed server with ~50 players will be a bit more profitable but you have to also consider how difficult it is to throw up shit and attract 50 players. That is why there is only half a page of 50+ player real maps on otservlist and while you can say "but it's still disappointing that those few 50+ real maps do exists" You also have to consider that there is still a player base that wants to play a sped up real tibia server so for that reason, there must exist at least several of these real maps for each version of tibia to give people a variety to choose from.

Personally I am glad there are so many failed real maps. This means that the open tibia community is moving forward in my eyes.
I was so surprised when we launched Deathzot 2 that we were able to get over 200 players online. After a much needed reset we were again able to reach 200+
This to me is progress. It has been a very long time since any new custom server has been released and able to attract that many players at launch.

Also I think the biggest motivation to me is @Sir Knighters Archlight. The fact that not only is that server custom but also 10.77 and it was also able to break the 200 mark.
It is very clear to me that this community is starting to recover from a long era of realmaprealmaprealmaprealmaprealmap8.6.8.6.8.6.8.6.8.68.6.8.6.8.6.

Edit:
@Extrodus
Maybe what we need is a splash page on otlist that says "what type of server do you want to play?" and people may click "Real Map", "Custom", or "All/Everything". This would make it much easier than having to sort through a list of 200 servers in order to pick through the shit and find something unique.

 

[Codex NG]

Also I think the biggest motivation to me is @Sir Knighters Archlight. The fact that not only is that server custom but also 10.77 and it was also able to break the 200 mark.

Although I do enjoy your server because of its unique ideas and gameplay and have played your server religiously in the past (which has pretty much ruined me for other servers, yet inspired me to write the releases I do) .

Normally agree with most of what you have to say here on otland, However, I wouldn't go bragging about player counts when both deathzot & archlight allow mcing and make 0 effort to prevent it, yes I know people will find a work around if they are going to mc, I've even seen evidence of archlight spoofing the online count.

With deathzot I already know most of the playerbase are bots because it isn't just a matter of who is the highest level its a matter of who has the best equipment which will force people to farm, ores, chests & ubers, amongst other things.

Idk if you make any real money from deathzot in the past or currently (and that is really none of my business) but since you have relaunched the server there has been an massive intake of botters especially in the lower level areas and yes I know you put in measures to prevent this however your little band-aide fix only increased the amount of botters instead of 1 or 2 botters running through a spawn you now have 6 - 7 botters per spawn.

It isn't fair to say that these custom servers bring in more players then real maps (they just bring in more bots/mcs), just as you pointed out in your deathzot thread its impossible to determine who is a bot and who is a player and how it is a waste of time to concern yourselves with this, but by building a server around the ease of botting, isn't not preventing mc/botting spoofing the numbers in itself?.

I know I'll get trolled for my opinion, however it is a valid one.
This community isn't dying because of the download and run or pay to win donation servers, it is dying because there is no emphasis on learning.

As I've stated in a previous thread people don't know the difference between a framework and a language, when it comes to scripts, tfs is a framework & LUA is its supporting scripting language until we can get people to understand the difference between the two and the importance of learning both this community will continue to decline.

 

[Xagul]

@Codex NG
I do understand your point of view. But you are somewhat delusional if you think that mcing/botting/training characters is unique to archlight, deathzot, or any custom server in general. You can pick any server with over 100 characters online and I am willing to bet at least 50% of them are either mcs, bots, training characters, or just characters who are afk for one reason or another. I am quite sad that you think my mention of player counts was meant to "brag" because it wasn't. I was simply using the player count as a comparison to what we generally see the high real map servers (with packed trainers) having, a player count that I have not seen on a custom server in an extremely long time but is now becoming quite common. Simply put, I have not seen any custom server launch with less than 50-100 players in the past year and if you compare that to a few years ago, that is really good news for those of us wanting to create unique servers.

Edit:
I also forgot to mention that I bring up archlight because it is using the newer tibia client, again in the past few years it was like we were stuck in 8.x but archlight proves that players are indeed interested in playing a custom server on the new client. Again this is also fantastic news because the new client opens up so many more features for us to put into custom servers it's mind blowing.

All we need now is for @Flatlander or @Shadowsong to release their server using OTC and finally prove that players are interested in custom servers using completely custom clients. That will put the last nail in the 8.x coffin and we can finally start making truly amazing things.