Suggestion New set of standards for the OtLand community.

[J.Dre]

Hi, everyone. Today we're here to discuss a concern of many, including myself.

It's time we set some new standards for OtLand and the entire Open Tibia community, wouldn't you agree? In the past few years, we've seen a great community decline to historically low levels. We need to hit the reset button and change our ways before things become so unrecognizable, it's too late to change.

We can start with preventing the advertisement of donation-only Open Tibia servers that have been reset multiple times, with clear evidence of corruption, greed, manipulation, and exploitation of kids. The fact that "owners" of Open Tibia servers are allowed to continue advertising and discussing their servers on OtLand after half a dozen resets - with their last attempt being less than 3 months prior - is absolutely ridiculous. They do not care about the OtLand community. They're exploiting it for "donations." So called "donations" have completely destroyed what Open Tibia once stood for. I fear we will never see those days again. But, we can take measures to prevent it from becoming worse. What's the point of being an "Open Source" community if the only objective is to make money? The community does not need people who are copying old threads, relaunching without making any substantial effort to improve their project. These people are the embodiment of what is wrong with Open Tibia - making thousands of dollars, only to reset again in a matter of months. It's entirely unethical. How can anyone expect OtLand to survive when these acts are overlooked?

Donations themselves are not bad and are not the problem. The problem is we're allowing people to exploit the meaning of a donation, and it's happening throughout all of Open Tibia. What has happened? Where did the ambitious and passionate developers / owners go? Why must we be forced into affiliation with this? This has been something that utterly disgusts me every time I go through the discussion and advertisement section of Otland. The meaning of donation has been skewed and exploited so much, it's quite frankly shameful to even use.

We must act now and begin transitioning into a more ethical and sustainable way of advertising, developing, and hosting or ownership - a trend toward what is right by enforcing a new set of rules and disallowing the advertisement "donation focused" projects (with multiple resets) and nothing more to offer the community except shame. OtLand administration needs to step up and implement more rules or guidelines for the entire OtLand community. There are plenty of moderators to enforce new rules. What's the point of having moderators if there's nothing to enforce? It's important we understand that action is what changes things. It is our responsibility as senior members to prepare those who will one day replace us to carry on our legacy by acting as role models for future generations. To change the community will take time... In that I have no doubt. It will not be easy, nor will it be clean, but it is necessary. To change ourselves will take courage, and it is honestly our last hope if we want to save what's left of the Open Tibia community. We need to stop enabling those who are exploiting the Open Tibia community for personal gain and start enabling those who genuinely enjoy Open Tibia for what it is.

Please do not be afraid to post below and discuss what has been mentioned above. I've discussed this future with dozens of members over the years. You may notice I did not mention any project names or point out anyone in particular, but you know who and what I am talking about. There is no denying it anymore. It's time to face what we have done.

Let's set our egos aside for a moment and constructively work to change something.

Regards,
J.Dre

P.S. I would liked to have written more, but I'm going to be late for class. Please keep the trolling, spamming, and offensiveness to a minimum. This is a serious problem. Maturity is something we all can appreciate.

 

[Beo]

According to this news they state that the development moved to GitHub:
https://otland.net/threads/moving-forward.198835/

You could easily visit github to check the progress if you're interested.
The posts about The Forgotten Server you find in news is the stable releases before they move on to TFS 1.2 from 1.1 for example.
As you can see here the development is in full swing.
https://github.com/otland/forgottenserver/commits/master

How do we do to make the community more active then?
How has the community gone to shit, this is just a bad argument without valid statements.

So put the changes on a thread on the forums so it increases activity, that's what I said in the first place right?

Community has gone to shit for the reasons I posted, can you not read?

They are valid statements since they are my opinion. My opinion is not invalid. Nobody's is.
I'm simply stating to put updates that are done on the github posted on the forums to increase activity.

 

[Damon]

So put the changes on a thread on the forums so it increases activity, that's what I said in the first place right?

Community has gone to shit for the reasons I posted, can you not read?

They are valid statements since they are my opinion. My opinion is not invalid. Nobody's is.
I'm simply stating to put updates that are done on the github posted on the forums to increase activity.

Although your opinion about the current state Otland is in is a very contra productive one, you are totally right about your very own opinion being valid. What is (partly) invalid are your statements and the "facts" you provide.
This is why @HalfAway has contributed the actual facts to this discussion which you seem to have just neglected to see or simply didn't know of due to your lack of interest/activity in OT and the Otland community.

 

[Red]

I still think you're all tunnel visioning and trying to solve a cultural issue in the OT community.
As @Red has mentioned, the culture at OTland is an inheritance that is driven from the Tibia community.
Cultural issues are notoriously difficult to shape; and otland is a minority in the OT community.

Very eloquently put @Leo32. Your 3 sentences just made me delete a wall-of-text I was about to post. You hit the nail on the head.

So put the changes on a thread on the forums so it increases activity, that's what I said in the first place right?

You could do that, if you'd like. For everyone else:
https://github.com/otland/forgottenserver/commits/master

Red

 

[J.Dre]

What I've proposed is not directly focused on changing the culture of Open Tibia. Most of you seem to think it's about one specific thing, and it's not. There is no single issue to resolve or any one change to be implemented. There is a series of changes and issues that require our attention. The process will require time and cannot be solved overnight. Difficult does not mean impossible.

 

[Codex NG]

What I've proposed is not focused on changing the culture of Open Tibia. Most of you seem to think it's about one specific thing, and it's not. There is no single issue to resolve or any one change to be implemented. There is a series of changes and issues that require our attention. The process will require some time and cannot be solved overnight.

Otland isn't a community of download and run servers, it is a community of creative people sharing ideas, everyone gets something different out of this forum, you just seem to focus on the negative aspects of it but these negative aspects exist in every open source community.

As someone suggested early on if you're not satisfied with the direction of Otland go start your own community then you can dictate its direction.

 

[J.Dre]

Otland isn't a community of download and run servers, it is a community of creative people sharing ideas, everyone gets something different out of this forum, you just seem to focus on the negative aspects of it but these negative aspects exist in every open source community.

As someone suggested early on if you're not satisfied with the direction of Otland go start your own community then you can dictate its direction.

Dividing up the community is a terrible idea. It's not about dictating terms or direction. It's about saving what's left and protecting the legacy we leave behind.

You'll never be able to understand because of how single-minded you are as an individual.

 

[Codex NG]

Dividing up the community is a terrible idea. It's not about dictating terms or direction. It's about saving what's left and protecting the legacy we leave behind.

You'll never be able to understand because of how single-minded you are as an individual.

I am not the one trying to mold something which is beyond my control.. I live in the real world.. you live in some fantasy land

 

[J.Dre]

I am not the one trying to mold something which is beyond my control.. I live in the real world.. you live in some fantasy land

Again, single-minded.

 

[Codex NG]

Again, single-minded.

If you say so, I guess that is better than you being simple-minded

 

[J.Dre]

If you say so, I guess that is better than you being simple-minded

There you go again, making things personal and offending others... You are so predictable.

 

[Codex NG]

There you go again, making things personal and offending others... You are so predictable.

So calling me single-minded in x amount of posts isn't a personal attack? Lol

Please save it, as far as I am concerned about what you have say about this community or myself, I am not.

You're just some this little kid who wants to complain about everything & because you are not getting the support for your point of view from the community you are personally attacking others.

Also I think you're a little still bit upset about me not joining your team, I would of joined if you weren't such a pretentious a-hole

 

[whitevo]

Step 1: Identify as many issues as possible.
Step 2: Discuss/explain why it is an issue.
Step 3: Brainstorm possible solutions.

soo.. I'm still waiting for J.Dre and chechlowski to answer/list these steps in easier to read form, before I'm going to play along and waste another hour+ to agree/disagree, add and discuss my own opinions.
Because so far they have been the only ones who have any interest to making this community a little better place. Its already good, but there is always room for improvement.

We are not going to change a freaking culture, calm your tits. We just want newcomers to recognize good from very bad, get some new features or at least some "community direction" to OTLand forum itself.
OP(opening post) main concern was that kids get exploited by unknowingly entering the open tibia server, donating few bucks and right after that, server down, leaving them feel like open tibia should be avoided.
Ofcourse we can't stop them from entering there, but we can do is, guide them if they use OTLand. How we go about it? Well I got ideas, some of ideas are written down by others so lets get back to ontopic and start over without seeking who to blame. You first.

 

[Beo]

Very eloquently put @Leo32. Your 3 sentences just made me delete a wall-of-text I was about to post. You hit the nail on the head.



You could do that, if you'd like. For everyone else:
https://github.com/otland/forgottenserver/commits/master

Red

I do not have any affiliation to open tibia or tibia any more so I don't see any reason why I would do that. It was a simple suggestion to increase activity on the boards. Obviously this was thrown out of proportion and it seems like you all enjoy the forums being dead.

Perhaps the forums aren't dead but from what I can see it's definately not as alive as when I left. The only real active board is the support board and that is literally full of people who want to be spoon fed which is one of the reasons I left. The community was turning into a help me or go fuck yourself attitude. This has been going on for too long.

Instead of hiring support staff in the past to keep providing support to people who just come here for support they should have encouraged them to create more tutorials and guide people to them. Don't you think this would increase a little more activity on the boards?

People come here only for support there is a small minority that come here to become an actual part in the community.

I'm not saying it's anyone's fault I'm saying a lot of stuff could have been done better. Which is where there is room for improvement still .

Your right, splitting the community will only make it die more - I've come to this conclusion since I thought about it more.

Maybe I've been gone too long to even understand the situation otland is in right now but on the surface it looks disgusting.

 

[Ahilphino]

the community is just way too small and I have no idea how to make it bigger

 

[J.Dre]

This thread didn't even make it a week before going off the rails...

The members and leaders of this community are hopeless. You all see the demise, repackage it as something else entirely, and wholeheartedly run toward it in gleeful abandon. Meanwhile, the community around you, that once stood for something, is crumbling. Developers and other senior members start to disappear, the staff abandon their duty to uphold what's right, and 90% of the OTS lists are comprised of donation starved servers owned by those who have no desire to learn and grow, but rather take and continue to do so until there's nothing left. And worst of all, none of you will take the hint. In every moment, there is the possibility of a better future for this community, but you people won't believe it. And because you won't believe it, you won't do what is necessary to make it a reality. So, you dwell on this terrible future and you resign yourselves to it... For one reason: Because that future doesn't ask anything of you today.

So, yes, we saw this coming. We've discussed it; we've argued about it; we've attacked each other, and have accomplished nothing in the process. I suppose that's what happens when you expect too much from someone or something. Luckily, I will not be giving up on such a future and will continue building to build more while you all build to destroy. With it, I hope a new community is born, one that does not stand idly by as opportunity presents itself, but rather takes a chance and makes an effort to maintain what has been accomplished. And if it takes 10 years to do so, so be it.

P.S. For those that care, thank you telling me in private. But why not here? The ice has been broken.

 

[whitevo]

@J.Dre This is post is made for you.
You were given opportunity (several times already) to start and lead the course of actions, but you didn't do it.

So put yourself into same bunch of people you are accusing of "destroying" the community.
You claim to be "building" something very good for community, but problem is you are not sharing nor showing it. At this moment very little know what you are doing here.
If you are waiting for the right moment then the moment is now. Even if you have no visual proof as long as you have vision which you think will help us. Putting it out here is already a start.
But you must claim your idea and act towards it.

While you are writing big words.
I'm going to continue with my life project and see what kind of effect is has on OTLand.
I may not go full out on helping the community, but at least I'm adding something.

 

[Lazy Panda]

Very eloquently put @Leo32. Your 3 sentences just made me delete a wall-of-text I was about to post. You hit the nail on the head.



You could do that, if you'd like. For everyone else:
https://github.com/otland/forgottenserver/commits/master

Red

Well put

 

[Beo]

This thread didn't even make it a week before going off the rails...

The members and leaders of this community are hopeless. You all see the demise, repackage it as something else entirely, and wholeheartedly run toward it in gleeful abandon. Meanwhile, the community around you, that once stood for something, is crumbling. Developers and other senior members start to disappear, the staff abandon their duty to uphold what's right, and 90% of the OTS lists are comprised of donation starved servers owned by those who have no desire to learn and grow, but rather take and continue to do so until there's nothing left. And worst of all, none of you will take the hint. In every moment, there is the possibility of a better future for this community, but you people won't believe it. And because you won't believe it, you won't do what is necessary to make it a reality. So, you dwell on this terrible future and you resign yourselves to it... For one reason: Because that future doesn't ask anything of you today.

So, yes, we saw this coming. We've discussed it; we've argued about it; we've attacked each other, and have accomplished nothing in the process. I suppose that's what happens when you expect too much from someone or something. Luckily, I will not be giving up on such a future and will continue building to build more while you all build to destroy. With it, I hope a new community is born, one that does not stand idly by as opportunity presents itself. But rather takes a chance and makes an effort to maintain what has been accomplished. And if it takes 10 years to do so, so be it.

I will no longer bear the responsibility of keeping the flame alive. It's up to you now. My hope is that you not let it burn out.

Regards,
J.Dre

P.S. For those that care, thank you telling me in private. But why not here? The ice has been broken.

I don't know what you want us to contribute since 99% of the servers thesedays are donation real maps.

Players enjoy these servers that reset every week, thats why they exist and thats why they are still running successfully now.

I haven't seen a crazy popular CUSTOM Open tibia server since Kingdom Age / Pokemon online.

So I don't know what you are suggesting exactly?

 

[Chechlowski]

I don't agree with the downward spiral you describe OpenTibia is in, thus I agree with the fact that the community has changed over the years but not necessarily to the worse, it just evolved. I think a big part of the reason the OTLand community is less active nowadays is because of Tibia's downward spiral - many years back Tibia looked to be a game with a rapidly growing playerbase but unfortunately due to poor management and a changing online game industry they have only been losing players since, hence the lower activity on OTLand because the majority of people who come here comes from Tibia, and older members who leave OTLand are no longer being replaced with new ones.

I think in order to re-establish the OTLand community's fruitness we need to focus on evolving beyond Tibia's limits, we can no longer follow Cipsoft's poor choice of path. OTLand is not about making money on cheap real map servers, its about sharing a passion for game development - therefore I propose/suggest that we consider opening a new set of boards where people on a wider spectrum may discuss game development outside of OpenTibia, we could also introduce certain awards such as:

• Project of the month
• Contributor of the month
• Community member of the month
• .. and so forth ..

These are only examples of what could encourage people to take new initiatives, it could be determined by a jury and/or votes. Hopefully it can also attract new members from outside the Tibia world to join the community - wouldn't that be really great? However, I'm thankful for OTLand's existence and I hope to see the community evolve into something even greater since I intend to stay here, and also please refrain from bashing on OTLand for not being what it used to be - everything changes.

I'm still hoping to get some feedback on this idea from any community members.

 

[J.Dre]

So calling me single-minded in x amount of posts isn't a personal attack? Lol

Please save it, as far as I am concerned about what you have say about this community or myself, I am not.

You're just some this little kid who wants to complain about everything & because you are not getting the support for your point of view from the community you are personally attacking others.

Also I think you're a little still bit upset about me not joining your team, I would of joined if you weren't such a pretentious a-hole

For clarification from the "kid:" Stating someone is single-minded is not an attack. It's not even an offensive statement. Suggesting one is "simple-minded" is suggesting they are stupid. As you claimed this, it would seem you are the only one here attacking others, as usual. You're just another unproductive, immature member of OtLand projecting his inner hatred onto others.

And as for you not joining my team: Hell, no. I'm not upset. Even other members of my team are glad. Asking you what your name was resulted in a rage-quit from you on Skype. This proved to me that you are not a team player. Red flags went up the moment you expressed interest because I knew you were not who you claimed to be. And this was later confirmed.

Do you not see that you're still making things personal? People like you are a disgrace to this community. It's not about you - it never was and never will be.