Shove otservlist.org up your....

[Peonso]

@Peonso
I know this reply may be too long for your attention span but please do try and put a bit of effort into reading it before you shitpost me. I will post a tldr for you...

I totally got you empathizing with the guy, not liking me mocking him, but starting your point with ad hominen, is steping down to the level you acusing me to go. Not at all fundamented also, as all that I posted later showed that I paid enough attention to everything posted and understood the issue. You may not agree with me strictly, but you can't deny that Tibia/OT (any kind of OT) is a game that player count matters a lot, people are drive to play something that has an already estabilished community/large player base and totally more likely to avoid low player count servers. And because of that it is the best interest for servers owners, and the players, that the server list do a good job in that regard, counting how many players are on each server. Xinn's list long life is due to only being stablished sooner, or he is actually delivering what people wants?

Most people are quite sick of how otservlist only cares about the number of players online with absolutely no consideration for the quality of the service and so people have created new lists.

Really? Give me one exemple, I had the impression that all lists order servers by online count as default. Seems like even the one OP linked has the same rulling he was complaining about.

Not that what you guys said doesn't matter. But it's secundary, player count matters more, maybe you and @Sportacus don't agree, but you can't judge xinn for his methods regarding this, it works, and address most of the players and server owners expectations.

Also you pick me as childish and ignorant, but look at thread title, the quadruplepost, and how he is clueless about a stated rule and how he links a list with the same standards. I think you went harsh on me just because you desagree with me and didn't mocked him as I did because you agree with him. Your pattern seems like mine. Best thing OP can do? Follow your suggestions.

 

[Xagul]

Really? Give me one exemple

I don't remember which one it was (it was several years ago) but they put more emphasis on new upcoming servers to assist said servers with their initial launch, and to help players to find new servers to play instead of digging through the ones that they have been seeing forever. I believe they also had a voting system similar to other private servers for more modern games (like mmolist and minecraft servers).

You may not agree with me strictly, but you can't deny that Tibia/OT (any kind of OT) is a game that player count matters a lot

Again, this is not at all the point of this thread. The point of this thread is that his server was banned for the sole reason (assuming here ofc) of increasing the idle-kick time from 15 minutes to 30 in his config.lua. I'm only here to show support for Kavalor because he has been around this community for a long time and has always tried his best to provide us with awesome custom servers to play. Never once have his servers been banned before and never once have I seen his otservlist numbers spoofed. In addition, my last 2 servers were banned for the same reason as his most likely just was which after contacting Xinn was deemed a mistake and resolved. I think people deserve the benefit of the doubt, I'm not sure why the first thing that popped into your mind was that this person was spoofing 100000 players and mad that he got banned.

Also you pick me as childish and ignorant, but look at thread title, the quadruplepost

I'm not going to sit here and make excesses for the way he went about posting this thread. But put yourself in his shoes. He comes back to the OT community after a several year hiatus only to be shut down within a week, and after paying otservlist for advertisement, for something we can only assume is as silly as changing the idle-kick time as otservlist provides owners with 0 information as to why their server was actually banned in the first place. I think it's safe to say he was outraged by the injustice that had befallen him and maybe he acted a bit rash, but his message was still very clear.

Xinns server list has quite a few flaws that should have attention brought to them every chance we get. This is not the first time it has been brought up, however, when people post things like you did which are essentially blowing off the OP and just assuming that they were spoofing "100000 online players" as you said, it hurts the cause.

1. The rules on otservlist are extremely vague/incomplete. If you actually want all of the details you need to scour these forums to find them.
2. Servers are banned without notice based on a flawed algorithm that is quite often wrong and lazy in-game checks.
3. Server owners are never provided with the actual reason why they were banned so assuming that said server wasn't actually spoofing intentionally, they have no idea what they did that caused the ban.
4. The process of appealing a ban takes weeks/months and is extremely detrimental to the launch of a server.
5. The default sorting method is player count which encourages people to spoof in the first place which is why this nazi ban system needs to exist in the first place...
6. There is no voting system that will allow players to self-govern the server list so we must just sit here and assume that whom ever/what ever is banning servers is doing it for the right reasons. It is very possible that a server such as Sportacus described would be banned from the list just because otservlist does not personally feel it should be on there. This may not bother the every day real map copy paste server, but it is a real concern for custom servers that want to bring something new to the table.

 

[Peonso]

@Xagul

So you got zero examples. All current lists seems to copy xinn's model without bringing many new features, ask yourself the reason.

I totally got your point, I'm saying that stuff is secondary, xinn's business rely heavily on bringing accurate player counts, that is what people want from it.

I'm not used to empathize with people mad by crushed expectations from their own mistakes actually blaming other people. I never assumed he was reporting 100000 players online, it was just part of the irony, I even went to his server page to check online count, seemed like a honest mistake, but still, his mistake.

I can agree with you that otservlist could be less vague, that the appealing method is detrimental as taking too much time fuck up launchs and etc, and that he should be more transparent with ban reasons. But will keep disagreeing regarding the other stuff, I'm not really aware of how the algorithm works and how much problem it gives him, but I assume it works well enough, it actually worked here, because it did what it meant to. Default sort method by player count is what people want dude, it should be other thing? When I google otserv list what I want to see is what people is playing, if it sorted by any other subjective aspect it will be even worse to manage and more "gamed" by server owners. Voting lists are a joke, first because they kind of already represent just the amount of players, but they also encourage servers owners to play dirt to encourage people to vote. I don't think it should be self-governed, people that brag they know stuff fucking up the thing with random ideas? People claim he has a monopoly, but anyone can go create another list with it own sorting methods.

Also regarding custom x real map, I think it's a totally different issue. But if you want to discuss it anyway, I think there is no competition, most people that go to the ot community/otserv list is searching for a low effort/cheaper/nostalgic version of the real Tibia game, they are not searching indie/hobbyist stuff, if you want to play something new you don't search for a piracy community. Some may stumble into it and like, but I really think there are 2 types of players surfing through our community, most of the developers and active people here side with the custom stuff, but we don't represent the players, most of them just want the real map thing, real maps are not detrimental to the custom scene, the players that want custom stuff just aren't many as those that want real maps.

 

[e.e]

Interesting conversation. Hard to pick sides.
I don't think a voting system is the answer either (and I'm currently building my own for my own server with a focus on fairness).
Would be interesting to hear if anyone have some other ideas though.
How DOES one make a fair rating system?
If we can't trust user input (e.g. votes), what can we trust?
Can we only trust robots because they're so dumb that we can tell when they're lying?

 

[Kavalor]

The title to my thread was an intentional harsh topic starter and I do apologize for my strategy however it was capable of passion friends. I must thank you guys, for all the effort and time spent on this thread while I have been at work and do value greatly what you have said. Solving problems and talking about things is important to progress and it is up to everyone to try and do the right thing and keep things transparent.

Again sorry for the clickbait title, if something is so critical to OT success it should be held to the same standards as the main sources(TFS) and if the code for TFS had a backdoor that could allow devs to shut you down if they did not like the way you made your game world we would all throw a fit. The proper fix to this is inside the code for otservlist and the display of server details allowing for better analysis for the consumer and not banning servers and having so much confusion by hosts.

And as I said before, Anyone trading freedom for security will have neither.

 

[e.e]

Hmm. Tbh otservlist isn't and doesn't have to be open source, it's basically just an advertising agency and doesn't owe us anything except delivering the products that they sell.
I agree, as does Peonso it seems, that they could be clearer on what their rules actually are.
Indeed from a legal standpoint they need to be clear enough about what the terms of the paid services they have are to be able to legitimately cancel or suspend the very own products that they sell.
I don't know whether their terms are or aren't clear, but I'd recommend you to focus your outrage on that part if you want to get somewhere as the rest of your arguing points are very insubstantial.

 

[Xagul]

I'm not really aware of how the algorithm works and how much problem it gives him, but I assume it works well enough

Thank you for finally admitting this, it's all I needed to hear. Until you've had to deal with the flawed system, there is no way you can possibly understand how broken it actually is.

Also I'm not saying otservlist should stop sorting by player count by default and start using a voting system, I was simply pointing out that in doing so, it causes people to want to spoof players. Spoofing the number of players is very easy for servers to do and extremely hard to detect fairly for otservlist. I was suggesting an alternative that would put much less stress on the system, ofc player count would still be available to people because it is certainly relevant, however, wouldn't it be quite obvious a server is spoofing if it has 900 players online and only 3 votes? Likewise, wouldn't it be much easier for otservlist to determine if a server is actually being fair if they have 900 players and a very high amount of votes? It just makes sense which is why every other private server community uses it. Hell, even steam uses it...

P.S.
I don't think you understand how a "monopoly" works. Do you have any idea how long (and how much money in advertisement) it took for amd to regain just a small fraction of the processor market back? Anyone can start a company and build processors, in fact, many have over the years... It doesn't change the fact that around 80% of the market is still intel.

So if you wanted to sell computers, would you focus on amd or intel builds?
If you want to bring players to your server, would you focus on player count or a voting system that exists on 1 underdog server list?

If you want to sell the most copies of your video game, are you going to focus on optimization around intel platforms, or amd platforms?
If you want to bring the most players to your server, are you going to design your server around otservlist rules (assuming you even know what they are) or are you going to go with a custom set of rules that fits the community you want to target?

Also how long before otservlist decides they don't like botting and makes up a rule that states if they find someone botting or using anti-idle on your server it will be banned from the list.

 

[Vatriot]

Here's a way to look at it. Every business revolves around money, OTServlist being a business will make decisions that will either do one of 2 things: Make customers happy OR Make more profit. If you look at how "spoofing" affects profits. Spoofing number is a way to advertise your server without having to pay for the OTServlist advertisement, hence the reason why they ban servers for doing it. It's a bad system, but don't be fooled that it's for "Accuracy", pay the right amount and you can probably a free pass. I'd prefer a voting system, Quality is always better then quantity

 

[Peonso]

Thank you for finally admitting this, it's all I needed to hear. Until you've had to deal with the flawed system, there is no way you can possibly understand how broken it actually is.

You intentionally holding information? My context is this thread, server is reporting characters idle for more than 15 minutes as online, algorithm tracks it and the server is banned, it works. What are you even talking about?

Also I'm not saying otservlist should stop sorting by player count by default and start using a voting system, I was simply pointing out that in doing so, it causes people to want to spoof players. Spoofing the number of players is very easy for servers to do and extremely hard to detect fairly for otservlist. I was suggesting an alternative that would put much less stress on the system, ofc player count would still be available to people because it is certainly relevant, however, wouldn't it be quite obvious a server is spoofing if it has 900 players online and only 3 votes? Likewise, wouldn't it be much easier for otservlist to determine if a server is actually being fair if they have 900 players and a very high amount of votes? It just makes sense which is why every other private server community uses it. Hell, even steam uses it...

I agree it's not perfect, but your proposal doesn't seems good also. I just googled "steam games", and all my first page results are lists that either order by amount of players/players online/most sales, only one of them that allow me to sort regarding other aspects has % good/bad reviews as a choice. While servers rely heavily on otservlist, encouraging their player base to do some votes seems even more easy to "game", and as the votes are not attached to a gaming account as in steam I'm probably only seeing the tip of the iceberg of problems it would be.

P.S.
I don't think you understand how a "monopoly" works.
[...]
Also how long before otservlist decides they don't like botting and makes up a rule that states if they find someone botting or using anti-idle on your server it will be banned from the list.

For real? Maybe I phrased it badly. There are no other means to advertise games in the internet, no one can create anything new also, xinn's aggressive and predatory behavior withholds the whole market?

You saying there is a market for 2d game from 1997 custom server with game play directed towards people that don't actually play and xinn is refraining it from flourishing with his rules at his advertisement site that is the only one option as gaming advertisement goes.

 

[e.e]

On the topic of server lists using votes for ordering, take a look at this Private/Custom Server Travian List.
Seems fair, right?
That is until you actually register on one of those servers and soon realize that every single top server literally gives you "donation points" (you can get them either by donating or voting) everytime you vote them up on the list.
Golly, I wish we had that same system for ots/otservlist!

It's just not true that a voting system in this case would be fairer because it's not connected to other pieces of data, so it's actually far easier, like Peonso has said, to rig votes than it is to spoof the player count in this case.
Otherwise I'm right there with you, and I'm glad this discussion is being had, but your voting proposal won't make the list any fairer for sure.
Instead I think the answer probably has to either be a better proposal, something that would actually work better than player count, or an "otservlist watchguard" website/system to point out when otservlist seem to be engaged in unfair selection biases, unfair favoring, etc, but again the problem then becomes who watches this watchguard site, how can we trust them, and the whole process repeats in an infinite loop, so though this second option works to some degree by proxy, it's always just temporary and never offers a full or complete solution.

 

[Xagul]

You intentionally holding information?

My very first post in this thread:

When he checked your server to make sure people were being kicked for being idle in trainers he probably logged in, started training, xlogged to another character, waited 15 minutes, and saw it was still online.

This is at the very least how he went about it a few years back and considering the OPs current situation, doesn't seem to have changed. I have withheld nothing.

I just googled "steam games", and all my first page results are lists that either order by amount of players/players online/most sales

That's your problem, you googled steam games rather than actually launching steam to see how it works for yourself. Here I'll do it for you!

Spoiler: store button

Spoiler: default store page

Spoiler: selecting a genre

As you can see, you are generally greeted with a page of new recommendations based on whats new and/or featured currently. There is no list of games by players anywhere on these pages. You must click on the tab "what's being played" to see a list of games that (in tibia terms) have the most players. Even still, you do not have a player count, in fact, you don't even get a player count if you click on the individual game in question either. If you want to see a list of games sorted by player count you must click on the stats section of the store (see first picture).

Furthermore, if you click on the list of top sellers you will receive a list like this:

Spoiler: top sellers

From this screen you can see the games that have sold the most, but you can also see user ratings. You may notice not all of the top games have good reviews. Hmm wonder why that could be... Maybe because the simple fact that a lot of players have bought/played a game does not mean it's good? This information is extremely relevant to the player looking for something new to play.

So like I originally proposed, don't completely remove the list sorted by player count, just don't make it the first thing people see because when that is the case it becomes the most important part of the entire list.

xinn's aggressive and predatory behavior withholds the whole market?

No, his website existing since the start and being the main hub for people finding servers withholds the whole market. Short of his service shutting down, there is no reason for the majority of the community to even bother trying to find a new list, most of that community probably doesn't even know/care that there are other lists and never will care unless otservlist seized to exist.

That is until you actually register on one of those servers and soon realize that every single top server literally gives you "donation points" (you can get them either by donating or voting) everytime you vote them up on the list.

Let me ask you something... If a server gives points for voting them higher on the list, and a player is doing that daily because he/she wants the points. Does that not prove A) Said player is clearly real and not a spoofed number and B) Said player is clearly interested in said server since they are constantly going out of their way to vote for it every day?

I'm not going to sit here and say there is absolutely no possible way to game the voting system, but it is a hell of a lot more secure than just basing everything on player count. All you have to do to beat otservlist is make a server report that there are "x" additional players online and you're done. Yes, it's possible for otservlist to ban the server, but if it's done within reason, and the person spoofing is also able to spoof evidence that they aren't spoofing, then they will get away with it. At the end of the day, it's simply not possible for otservlist to determine whether or not a server is spoofing without a bit of human element involved in the process, and the human factor is the biggest threat because it's subject to opinion rather than evidence. At least with a voting system the human element is community driven instead of a single individual "playing god".

 

[e.e]

Let me ask you something... If a server gives points for voting them higher on the list, and a player is doing that daily because he/she wants the points. Does that not prove A) Said player is clearly real and not a spoofed number and B) Said player is clearly interested in said server since they are constantly going out of their way to vote for it every day?

Haha, are you actually going there?
I don't mind the argument as I love arguing, but it gets kinda ridiculous when you first claim to be making posts to support your friend by showing how corrupt and broken otservlist is, then soon after trying to argue that VOTE BRIBERY is perfectly LEGITIMATE and in fact is just exactly what otservlist needs!
I mean are you serious?
Sounds to me now that you guys are actually not at all serious and just wanna be outrageous to be outrageous like a couple of teenagers or something.

I'm not going to sit here and say there is absolutely no possible way to game the voting system, but it is a hell of a lot more secure than just basing everything on player count.

It's not though, and sticking your fingers in your ears and repeating yourself over and over isn't the way to make a point, it's the way a child convinces him or herself that there are no boogeyman under the bed (nothing to be ashamed of in your own private company imo, but you might not wanna do that in public, LOL).
And you know that too, right?

All you have to do to beat otservlist is make a server report that there are "x" additional players online and you're done. Yes, it's possible for otservlist to ban the server, but if it's done within reason, and the person spoofing is also able to spoof evidence that they aren't spoofing, then they will get away with it. At the end of the day, it's simply not possible for otservlist to determine whether or not a server is spoofing without a bit of human element involved in the process, and the human factor is the biggest threat because it's subject to opinion rather than evidence. At least with a voting system the human element is community driven instead of a single individual "playing god".

Uhuh...
So by just spoofing the spoofing you can spoofception the shit out of otservlist and get away with it, I see.
I mean that sure made a lot of technical sense, I honestly can't believe it took me so long to recognize the weakness and really just the genius of replacing this spoofception-vulnerable system with a voting system founded on bribery.
I'm honestly glad we had this talk, it kinda feels like my IQ has been doubled at the least during it if I have to be honest with you, and I think this might be just the right time to be so.

 

[Kavalor]

For the record I did not support or state that a points system or voting for servers would be the best method. However I did state I think that banning people for a month because kick time is 30 not 15 is a load of shit. I have since set my kick time to 10 but that does not get me unbanned. I did not even have anyone on the server that was xlogged or anything of the sort so the entire thing is bs.

I did advocate for a tag that allows players to see the server has unique rules or settings that may be changing the report data and a possible subset of servers on the server list so that it was not confusing.

I really am not sure why so many people are bending over backwards for a system that would do what I have seen done. If bribery is not currently in effect then I can not explain the actions of some of the people on this thread, because they do seem intelligent.

I am honestly so confused about this, yet it matters not, I am banned and excluded from the majority of players because someone assumed something. Those who think this is fair may continue to do so, no broken or corrupt system will ever stand for long.

 

[AsianPotato]

Haha, are you actually going there?
I don't mind the argument as I love arguing, but it gets kinda ridiculous when you first claim to be making posts to support your friend by showing how corrupt and broken otservlist is, then soon after trying to argue that VOTE BRIBERY is perfectly LEGITIMATE and in fact is just exactly what otservlist needs!

And the current system for ranking servers is completely flawless, right? Maybe we should get rid of the police because crimes still happen? Every solution has it's flaws. Also he literally just explained why encouraging players to vote isn't too bad and you completely missed the point. With a voting system, a player goes on the server, sees it's empty despite it having 1k players, downvotes and moves on, this happens 10 times and the servers' rank on the list gets weighted down by the downvotes(100% downvoted so it falls a lot in rank), and if Xinn wants to he can investigate and ban the server or whatever. Second scenario: someone puts up a shit server that offers points for votes but doesn't spoof players. Players play it for 10 minutes and quit, votes don't matter because algorithm takes into consideration both the player count and votes, server goes down in the list, and if Xinn wants to he can just ban any server that gives points for votes, much easier than the current system of banning and unbanning people based on assumptions and some shitty rule.

Third scenario: A small custom server starts up with 20~ players, gets upvoted a lot because community likes it, algorithm moves up the server next to servers with 80-100 people online, the server gets the attention it deserves.

The thing is there's no reason for otservlist to update, they've got a monopoly so why would they? Even simple features haven't been added such as sorting by when a server was created/reset. The only thing that I noticed was updated was the banner ads. Yay.

 

[e.e]

@Kavalor
You can set your AFK timer to whatever the fuck you want, just don't report them as online after 15 minutes (and once they're not afk again they can be reported as online again), that's a reasonable rule, your idea that basically every server gets to give whatever data they want to otservlist together with their own custom rulebook is NOT even remotely reasonable, you might as well suggest that we should have no laws, everyone can just invent their own law, and when a cop is called to investigate a crime he should first study the suspect's own self-made code of law, and if the suspect's book of law says murder is alright, then hey, the suspect is only guilty of following his own laws, no penalty!
Ding ding $1'000'000'000 idea!

Peonso and I (though we are quite different people and I think we approached this topic quite differently to begin with, at least imo) have both expressed where we agreed with the both of you, and I at the very least was trying for as long as possible to have a conversation about what we agree on, neither of you seemed to be interested AT ALL with that, so hey, if you just want to disagree with everyone until they suck your dick (which will never happen), you've got it!
And it's not a matter of bending over backwards for anything, it's about the both of you acting like highly qualified 10/10 idiots completely unable to see yourself as nothing else than victims and unable to take any kind of responsibility or doing any listening of your own
Both of you actually ruined a perfectly good, even serious topic that probably needs to be addressed, by acting like complete dumbasses. Well done.
And yes, you've correctly insinuated that I've been bribed by Xinn, obviously, it's all a part of the conspiracy, in fact all of otland is in on it and now we're onto you - run while there's still time!!!

And the current system for ranking servers is completely flawless, right? Maybe we should get rid of the police because crimes still happen?

1. Shove otservlist.org up your....
2. I have no idea what you're trying to say with that analogy, or what you're even analogizing to.

Every solution has it's flaws. Also he literally just explained why encouraging players to vote isn't too bad and you completely missed the point.

And you just accused me of thinking the system is flawless when in fact the second post I wrote here, which is just a few posts ago - on the very same page as this one - I criticized it.
I also just explained TWICE why it IS a bad idea, and I gave an actual example, rather than cheap and vague rhetoric that these guys and yourself like to spew.
So you've got the attention span of a monkey and there seems to be little to any point addressing anything you say because you're not able to read any of it anyways!

With a voting system, a player goes on the server, sees it's empty despite it having 1k players, downvotes and moves on

Oh, I see, you've really put a lot of thought into this, haven't you.
Able to even describe how the basics of the user interface would work. That's just astonishing, really.
Well, your argument is waterproof so I guess there's nothing left for me to do here but to surrender.
I know when I've been beaten.
Cheers

 

[Xagul]

@e.e
Nice attempt at trolling, you'll get there some day.

@Kavalor
It's because people prefer to run around wearing rose-tinted glasses and pretend that the world is perfect because anything other than that would be far too depressing. There is no logical reason whats so ever to defend the current system as literally anything added would just improve it.

@e.e #2
Seriously, he increased the idle-kick from 15 minutes to 30 minutes. It's not at all unreasonable, and said rule is not posted anywhere on otservlist. Also, are you seriously going to resort to insults now? I just asked a simple question to spark a dialog on your point about the voting system. If you think it's that bad just say so, no need to start insulting people.

 

[Nekiro]

Whats even point in this discussion? Xinn doesnt give a shit about ur opinions anyway

 

[Xagul]

Whats even point in this discussion? Xinn doesnt give a shit about ur opinions anyway

Truth hurts

 

[Peonso]

My very first post in this thread:

This is at the very least how he went about it a few years back and considering the OPs current situation, doesn't seem to have changed. I have withheld nothing.

How that is being broken and flawled? He was designed to do it, and did it perfectly.

Regarding the steam thing, I think you are being delusional if you think something like that can be implemented and would be marginally good even if viable. I still hold my point that xinn's list has people expectations in mind, people want to know player count, google search return that sort of list when I search for steam games should be some indication to you, google algorithm is done to match most common expectations. You totally not know how steam sort the "new/trending" list, so that means nothing. It doesn't seem that any fact I bring matters against you conjecturing an ideal list that would be good regarding your standards no one know why. The discussion is not getting anywhere and became boring. I really don't know why you can't get that it's a success for 12 years and advertising there works because it gives people what they want, servers player counts, I'm quitting.

 

[Xagul]

@Peonso
I agree, this discussion has been over for a few posts now. The other guy is just insulting people rather than actually discussing anything and you are starting to stonewall any point made by simply saying it's wrong without providing anything of substance other than the fact that you think we are "delusional". I get it, you have no argument against the points brought up in this thread, yet you still disagree, and you are entitled to do so. I will leave it at this, if you think it's ok for otservlist to ban a server for something that is not listed anywhere on their website, you have every right to that opinion, but you are still a moron. The system was designed to prevent spoofing yet innocent servers are being banned for a rule that isn't posted, that is by definition "broken and flawed".