The reason why tfs is delayed: we let the great programmers goes away

[roriscrave]

It is a fact that in a short time @fabian766 created (or modified) a tfs that is thousands of times better than the standard tfs here in otland.

I recently saw him commenting that he doesn't work 100% on his tfs, due to lack of time (because he needs to work in another job to pay the house bills).

Why don't we at otland get some people together and donate to him (10, 30, 30 ... 100) dollars every month, so he can focus more time on tfs? in a short time we would have an absurd improvement in tfs.

I remember that he solved a bug on the 'wait list', that he had on tfs of otland for 3 years, and in 10 minutes he went there and solved it. it's just an example of what the new tfs would become with his help

Just does not see who is blind, some comparations tfs Fabians vs tfs Otland:

SaiyansKing/optimized_forgottenserver

Contribute to SaiyansKing/optimized_forgottenserver development by creating an account on GitHub.

github.com

What is your opinion? are we going to help him or are we going to let him go?

 

[Peonso]

Why don't we at otland get some people together and donate to him (10, 30, 30 ... 100) dollars every month, so he can focus more time on tfs? in a short time we would have an absurd improvement in tfs.

There is a really simple reason for that not happening. You didn't made it happen and is creating a thread with the expectation other people make all the effort for you.

Here and there we have a thread with "revolutionary" ideas and solutions that always revolves around other people doing the hard work.

Are you familiar with fabian reasons to not contribute to the main repository? Do you know why his changes, that are open source, are not implemented to the main repository?

 

[Fablow]

They are "advanced" modified TFS versions laying around, which yes has more progress then the official repository, including Fabians. I think the improvement of the project will depend on the community helping build it, not just one person - This has also been said before I'm pretty sure. I would help but unfortunately it's not something in my skill range, so I can't really contribute in that way but I try others way to contribute which is what a community is about. I don't think "donating" or "paying" one person to advance the project is the solution.

 

[roriscrave]

There is a really simple reason for that not happening. You didn't made it happen and is creating a thread with the expectation other people make all the effort for you.

Here and there we have a thread with "revolutionary" ideas and solutions that always revolves around other people doing the hard work.

Are you familiar with fabian reasons to not contribute to the main repository? Do you know why his changes, that are open source, are not implemented to the main repository?

I already contributed to it, when he solved a bug that I needed, but alone I can't get a value that is high.
A tfs bug since 2017 that was only solved in 2020, for me tfs advances like a turtle

TFS 1.X+ - Bug in Wait List tfs 1.3 downgraded 8.6

I put maxPlayers = 80 in config.lua but when server have 60 players, all new player get wait list. So dont work this config in config.lua. edit: I realized that over time the wait list increases and the number of allowed online players decreases, for example now there are 18 players on the wait...

otland.net

I don't know why they didn't put his changes in the official repository, can you explain the reason?
I only know that the modifications he made are far superior to those that existed before.

 

[Silba]

There is a really simple reason for that not happening. You didn't made it happen and is creating a thread with the expectation other people make all the effort for you.

Here and there we have a thread with "revolutionary" ideas and solutions that always revolves around other people doing the hard work.

Are you familiar with fabian reasons to not contribute to the main repository? Do you know why his changes, that are open source, are not implemented to the main repository?

Are you familiar with the fact that to a regular user of otland nothing is explained when we join right? so we have absolutely no idea why everyone seems to hate eachother and make passive and sometimes not so passive aggressive comments towards everyone or certain people? We also have no clue why there's 1000 different versions of tfs and the main branch takes years to make changes that others do in minutes and now we're also about to see 1000 different versions of otclient. We have no idea why no one's working together and it's absolutely infuriating watching this happen. Some of us also know how damaging and ultimately lethal this is to a community so every now and then someone decides to say something and give some words of encouragement, because no one else is. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, people can enourage others to do things they themselves aren't capable of. That's part of something called a community, something sorely missing from here it seems. Your comment is no better than OP and is in fact much worse, you're putting a guy down when he's done nothing wrong, discouraging him from being an active member of the community, well done.

 

[Peonso]

I already contributed to it, when he solved a bug that I needed, but alone I can't get a value that is high.
A tfs bug since 2017 that was only solved in 2020, for me tfs advances like a turtle

TFS 1.X+ - Bug in Wait List tfs 1.3 downgraded 8.6

I put maxPlayers = 80 in config.lua but when server have 60 players, all new player get wait list. So dont work this config in config.lua. edit: I realized that over time the wait list increases and the number of allowed online players decreases, for example now there are 18 players on the wait...

otland.net

I don't know why they didn't put his changes in the official repository, can you explain the reason?
I only know that the modifications he made are far superior to those that existed before.

You offered him 10 bucks once. Did you talk to him? Is he willing to accept it? How much he want? How will you set it up? Who else you know is also interested in being a backer? And for how long? Is that really feasible?

I don't know all the answers either. Your supposed solution just seemed naive, there is way more to it that you are clearly ignoring. There is a reason why TFS development is slow, and it's not only because commit revisions are slow (it's volunteer work) or because brain power is missing. They have a standard to follow where implementations are tested and revised by peers, working alone can speed up the process but also make it more risky.

Post automatically merged: Jan 1, 2021

Are you familiar with the fact that to a regular user of otland nothing is explained when we join right? so we have absolutely no idea why everyone seems to hate eachother and make passive and sometimes not so passive aggressive comments towards everyone or certain people? We also have no clue why there's 1000 different versions of tfs and the main branch takes years to make changes that others do in minutes and now we're also about to see 1000 different versions of otclient. We have no idea why no one's working together and it's absolutely infuriating watching this happen. Some of us also know how damaging and ultimately lethal this is to a community so every now and then someone decides to say something and give some words of encouragement, because no one else is. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, people can enourage others to do things they themselves aren't capable of. That's part of something called a community, something sorely missing from here it seems. Your comment is no better than OP and is in fact much worse, you're putting a guy down when he's done nothing wrong, discouraging him from being an active member of the community, well done.

You don't know why. It's actually simple, open otservlist and check what drives this community foward. It's pirate version of up to date Tibia. Both Otclient and TFS aren't updated to current protocol for a long time, community split efforts seeking their own solutions.

This sort of thread is really common and pop out every month, I'm contributing by not let people wasting time with those sort of ideas again. In the end it's just someone once again trying to point out people on what to do, while not actually doing themselves anything to move the projects foward. And it's naive as fuck, because it is ignoring tons of things that would obstacle it's implementation.

 

[roriscrave]

You offered him 10 bucks once. Did you talk to him? Is he willing to accept it? How much he want? How will you set it up? Who else you know is also interested in being a backer? And for how long? Is that really feasible?

I don't know all the answers either. Your supposed solution just seemed naive, there is way more to it that you are clearly ignoring. There is a reason why TFS development is slow, and it's now only because commit revisions are slow (it's volunteer work) or because brain power is missing. They have a standard to follow where implementations are tested and revised by peers, working alone can speed up the process but also make it more risky.

I don't know how much he wants, and I don't even know who wants to help, I'm posting here to get answers. if i already knew the answers i wouldn't be posting this.

You have no answer for everything, just like me, I am searching a possible solution.
Your comment does not contribute anything, what is your solution for improving tfs?

Are you familiar with the fact that to a regular user of otland nothing is explained when we join right? so we have absolutely no idea why everyone seems to hate eachother and make passive and sometimes not so passive aggressive comments towards everyone or certain people? We also have no clue why there's 1000 different versions of tfs and the main branch takes years to make changes that others do in minutes and now we're also about to see 1000 different versions of otclient. We have no idea why no one's working together and it's absolutely infuriating watching this happen. Some of us also know how damaging and ultimately lethal this is to a community so every now and then someone decides to say something and give some words of encouragement, because no one else is. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, people can enourage others to do things they themselves aren't capable of. That's part of something called a community, something sorely missing from here it seems. Your comment is no better than OP and is in fact much worse, you're putting a guy down when he's done nothing wrong, discouraging him from being an active member of the community, well done.

very nice!
they criticize, but do not debate, what is the best solution? I just proposed a 'possible' solution and they already came swearing.

 

[Peonso]

Your comment does not contribute anything, what is your solution for improving tfs?

"Hell is full of good meanings, but heaven is full of good works." Actually I'm contributing by giving meaningful insight, this is an over repeated thread giving an over repeated suggestion. "You guys should do" "some sort of patreon". Nothing new and it's naive.

What should be done is to go there, commit changes to tfs, review other commits, test submitted code, submit issues. There is no reinventing the wheel here. Crying rivers over discussion forum doesn't change the obvious, happens every month, changes nothing. But I'm not creating a new thread demanding people to do stuff and stating the obvious.

You want fabian changes on main repositoy? COMMIT IT. Such wow, mindblowing.

 

[roriscrave]

"Hell is full of good meanings, but heaven is full of good works." Actually I'm contributing by giving meaningful insight, this is an over repeated thread giving an over repeated suggestion. "You guys should do" "some sort of patreon". Nothing new and it's naive.

What should be done is to go there, commit changes to tfs, review other commits, test submitted code, submit issues. There is no reinventing the wheel here. Crying rivers over discussion forum doesn't change the obvious, happens every month, changes nothing. But I'm not creating a new thread demanding people to do stuff and stating the obvious.

You want fabian changes on main repositoy? COMMIT IT. Such wow, mindblowing.

in addition to the ready phrases, your solution is: "let's leave it as it is".
it's a great solution, I don't know how i didn't think about it before

 

[Peonso]

in addition to the ready phrases, your solution is: "let's leave it as it is".
it's a great solution, I don't know how i didn't think about it before

I actually pointed out what to do. And I did many times, maintained OTHire, created opentibia sprite pack, fixed stuff on ZnoteAAC, reported issues on both otclient, tfs, commited files to rme. You came here with the great idea that someone else should do something, with the great background of contributing by spaming threads in support.

Gonna repeat it for you.

You want fabian changes on main repositoy? COMMIT IT.

The projects move foward with people going there getting their hands dirty. Not by comming to OtLand giving their clueless ideas about what other people should be doing.

 

[fabian766]

I'm sorry but I don't like the idea of forcing people to pay me money. If they like my work and want to support then that's okay.
Even if people here send me money it won't make me quit my job, only complete idiot would do that.
Yes, I'm not working full time on optimized TFS and will not be. I thought it was necessary to state that on my profile because I'm tired of people asking the same questions "when you'll add that/this?", "will you add that/this?" and didn't think it'll make someone to make thread like this.

Also please understand that beside programmer I'm also a gamer so sometimes I'm like to play some games in my free time instead on working on side-projects.

Are you familiar with fabian reasons to not contribute to the main repository?

Already said that they are "personal reasons" so I'll not state them.

 

[EvilSkillz]

Wait.. you saying tfs creator Team is slow? Like wtf do u think they spend their wohle life on doing updates for open tibia community? if you think they are kinda slow then start learning c++ and lua and go help them haha

No hate just saying

 

[Itutorial]

Wait.. you saying tfs creator Team is slow? Like wtf do u think they spend their wohle life on doing updates for open tibia community? if you think they are kinda slow then start learning c++ and lua and go help them haha

No hate just saying

Yeah but they should figure out some people that do have the time instead of doing nothing.

 

[Evil Puncker]

lets no forget OTC guys he deserve some love too, tfs will only leave 10.98 version when OTC accept newer protocols

 

[Sarah Wesker]

I have learned a lot from all the guys who contribute to TFS, RME, OTC, even some are already in another world, and surely they hit their heads with these fights in the forum in which they were helping for a long time

@fabian766 has many excellent improvements in his TFS I have even used several of his changes in my custom TFS, and if he does not want to propose these changes to official TFS it is because he simply does not want to, and if he does, we will be waiting to try such changes and give our reviews with great pleasure

@Evil Puncker Of course, we must never forget these guys who work hard dedicating their time to continue improving this great project, although the project is still in its infancy, they have done too much.

 

[Night Wolf]

You already got your answer.


This has deviated a lot from your original point. It's not like giving money to someone will increase their available time.
Fabian is a beast, he's very talented and know the structure he's dealing with so that's why he can make such incredible updates within minutes.

As for the rest of the questions raised through the topic:

I don't know why they didn't put his changes in the official repository, can you explain the reason?

There's basically two reasons here and they kinda match with the reason on why fabian didn't started his project as a branch of TFS.
- TFS official project is strongly against dropping the anchor that is backwards compatibility. This is literally written on his github:

- TFS approvers are pretty egocentric (as many other programmers around and besides this community). Why should I waste my time commiting something, explaining to everyone that's it's ok. Waiting weeks/months for it to be tested and then accepted?
Sometimes you need to quickly commit something and move on, otherwise the projects get stagned and you lose the pace.
Check the last discussions, there's always dickheads trying to explain why it's bad written or don't test all necessary cases or have a worst performance even when the code is used once each startup (which would be meaningless performance-wise). It's seems to me that many devs are trying to showoff the latest thing they have read on stackoverflow even when they don't get the full concept yet.

Your comment does not contribute anything, what is your solution for improving tfs?

Besides Peonso being a dick, he's got a point. How to improve tfs FASTER? Simply contribute the way you can.
That is the 1st reason on why it's slower, but it's clearly not the only reason why the project have evolved so little even having crazy programmers in the community:
1) TFS team does't have a clear direction on where the project should head.
2) TFS team discard testers and call them leechers
3) Devs that could contribute don't know how to start
4) Approvers are slow (also because of 2)
5) Over-discussions before implementation
6) Lack of leadership in the development. Even approvers don't know what should be added or not and many features aren't even commited because people assume they wouldn't be added because it stray away from RL tibia.
7) Many devs prefer to sell/use as advantage towards other competitors any system/improvement they have instead of sharing. I have also overdiscussed this point here in the forum but unfortunately that's very little that can be done on this one.

 

[Don Daniello]

@Night Wolf, I agree with many of your points but I'm asking for clarification on this one:

2) TFS team discard testers and call them leechers

What do you mean by that? I understand that you think the "TFS team" (btw, who is that exactly?) does not want people to test Pull Requests? I'm confused.

 

[xKrazyx]

It is a fact that in a short time @fabian766 created (or modified) a tfs that is thousands of times better than the standard tfs here in otland.

I recently saw him commenting that he doesn't work 100% on his tfs, due to lack of time (because he needs to work in another job to pay the house bills).

Why don't we at otland get some people together and donate to him (10, 30, 30 ... 100) dollars every month, so he can focus more time on tfs? in a short time we would have an absurd improvement in tfs.

I remember that he solved a bug on the 'wait list', that he had on tfs of otland for 3 years, and in 10 minutes he went there and solved it. it's just an example of what the new tfs would become with his help

Just does not see who is blind, some comparations tfs Fabians vs tfs Otland:

SaiyansKing/optimized_forgottenserver

Contribute to SaiyansKing/optimized_forgottenserver development by creating an account on GitHub.

github.com

What is your opinion? are we going to help him or are we going to let him go?

This happens already but privately behind the scenes. No one wants to spend their own hard earned dollars for leachers who contribute nothing. You will never get around leachers in an open source community, its just something you have to accept. In my experience, good programmers have been exchanging good sources and code behind the threads of OTLand and TFS github for a while now. Need more incentives on OTLand to encourage people to release more stuff imo.

Ive suggested the idea of using OTLand donations to further development on TFS before. I would gladly donate monthly to ensure Good Stable development is happening on the main repository. The only reason I do not donate now is I have no idea how the donation money is being applied currently. This applies to the OTC repo as well. You can still take a % for yourself no one would care @Don Daniello .

Make OTLand donations public, allow people to see where the money is going and start using it for TFS/OTC development. I would GLADLY donate 5-25$/m. Now compound that by 20-100 people? There's your development funds..

This could also potentially attract more talented developers who would want to work for $$.

If you think this idea wont work and there wont be enough funds, simply make a poll and find out. Im sure a lot of people would donate like myself. I owe a lot to OTLAND, and I would happily give back.

Bounty boards exist for a reason.

 

[EduardoDantas]

I think it would be much more useful, to start taking changes from the saiyans king and make a pull request on TFS (it doesn't have to be him doing this, anyone can do it and give the credits), just like we do on otservbr-global
Nobody's finger falls, this self-centeredness is what kills

 

[Handicap Ninja]

privately behind the scenes good programmers have been exchanging good sources and code for a while now

yep, illuminati confirmed