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The reason why tfs is delayed: we let the great programmers goes away

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roriscrave

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@fabian766 today announced her departure from the forum. We lost another great programmer.
It seems that I was already predicting the future when I created this topic.

let`s continue to follow @Peonso solutions:
in addition to the ready-made phrases he got from google, his solution is: "let's leave it as is".
meanwhile some people who do nothing useful (peonso), are still here, just doing your part to criticize anyone who tries to find a solution
 
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oen432

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@fabian766 today announced her departure from the forum. We lost another great programmer.
It seems that I was already predicting the future when I created this topic.
his*
And he is just leaving OTLand, not OT community. Optimized TFS is still going to be maintained by him. He wasn't even that much active anyway, no threads about his projects and whatsoever (only 128 posts). Literally nothing is going to change.
 

Peonso

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@fabian766 today announced her departure from the forum. We lost another great programmer.
It seems that I was already predicting the future when I created this topic.

let`s continue to follow @Peonso solutions:
in addition to the ready-made phrases he got from google, his solution is: "let's leave it as is".
meanwhile some people who do nothing useful (peonso), are still here, just doing your part to criticize anyone who tries to find a solution
You marking me to say total bullshit, you should at least be fair. I never said the solution is "leave it". I told you should stop saying what other people should be doing and start helping by yourself. While we have empty heads that all they know to do is to SPAM SUPPORT FORUM, then create a suggestion thread telling what other people should implement (that they are not helping to make happen) while they are totally clueless, nothing changes.

You came here, wrote bullshit, YOU DID NOT HELP AT ALL TO IMPLEMENT ANYTHING, NOT EVEN OUR NAIVE IDEA. Guess what, nothing changed. And it wasn't because I said "leave it as is" (that I never actually said), it's because @roriscrave never did any thing to actually help.

Go spam support forum, stop being a nuisance by marking me.
 

oen432

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You marking me to say total bullshit, you should at least be fair. I never said the solution is "leave it". I told you should stop saying what other people should be doing and start helping by yourself. While we have empty heads that all they know do is to SPAM SUPPORT FORUM, them create a suggestion thread telling what other people should implement (that they are not helping to make happen) while they are totally clueless, nothing changes.

You came here, wrote bullshit, YOU DID NOT HELP AT ALL TO IMPLEMENT ANYTHING, NOT EVEN OUR NAIVE IDEA. Guess what, nothing changed. And it wasn't because I said "leave it as is" (that I never actually said), it's because @roriscrave never did any thing to actually help.

Go spam support forum, stop being a nuisance by marking me.
He can't help in any way, as you said, he is one of those people that only requests, never offers.
 

nugo

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This happens already but privately behind the scenes. No one wants to spend their own hard earned dollars for leachers who contribute nothing. You will never get around leachers in an open source community, its just something you have to accept. In my experience, good programmers have been exchanging good sources and code behind the threads of OTLand and TFS github for a while now. Need more incentives on OTLand to encourage people to release more stuff imo.

Ive suggested the idea of using OTLand donations to further development on TFS before. I would gladly donate monthly to ensure Good Stable development is happening on the main repository. The only reason I do not donate now is I have no idea how the donation money is being applied currently. This applies to the OTC repo as well. You can still take a % for yourself no one would care @Don Daniello .

Make OTLand donations public, allow people to see where the money is going and start using it for TFS/OTC development. I would GLADLY donate 5-25$/m. Now compound that by 20-100 people? There's your development funds..

This could also potentially attract more talented developers who would want to work for $$.

If you think this idea wont work and there wont be enough funds, simply make a poll and find out. Im sure a lot of people would donate like myself. I owe a lot to OTLAND, and I would happily give back.

Bounty boards exist for a reason.
Hello @Don Daniello

I am guinely curious about your opinions on this post? Im not looking to start an argument or anything im just really curious as to why OTland hasnt implimented somthing like this yet? It seems like a no brainier and has been suggested by every manner of community members from casual to well known but i dont think i have ever seen an OTland staff member comment on why it cant be done. I would be happy to donate decent cash if a mechanism like this was built into this site and the official TFS/OTC/Tools development kits. I fell the pros outweigh the cons for a system like this. If you wish to not adress this publically im open for a discussion on the topic in PMs that will be kept private.

Whats stopping OTland from doing this?
Is it a time thing?
Is it the handling of money?
is it the lack of man power/resourcing to set somthing like this up?
is it to big of an upfront cost to fund the initial set up?
Does research need to be done on a donation system that works effectively for our community?

Im happy to assist were i can to make this suggestion a reality.

Cheers
 
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Don Daniello

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Let's skip the important part for now and I'll try to answer your questions.

i dont think i have ever seen an OTland staff member comment on why it cant be done
It was done, in fact. Maybe not exactly the way it's being proposed right now (and that's not exactly settled) but there was a variation of it - Bountyource. We've had quite a few bounties available there, with $100+ bounties, some placed by members of the Staff here if I remember correctly.

The problem, besides what Bountysource pulled off trying to eat the money with ToS change, is that it didn't actually attract contributors. I can't say no bounty was ever claimed but I haven't seen one fulfilled/claimed. Now, we'll never know, because otland/forgottenserver was delisted from Bountysource and I don't really know why - I just hope the unclaimed bounties were refunded.

What I gather from this is that developers who are capable of solving difficult problems - the type that people would like to put a bounty on - do so without this monetary motivation. We have, after all, fixed many "big problems" in the years since the bounties were posted - there were contributors to code for free but no contributors to take the bounty, isn't that at least odd?

Is it a time thing?
Yes.
Is it the handling of money?
Yes.
is it the lack of man power/resourcing to set somthing like this up?
Yes.
is it to big of an upfront cost to fund the initial set up?
Probably no, things that make sense I have no problem setting up.
Does research need to be done on a donation system that works effectively for our community?
Definitely, if there exists a solution, I'd like to know about it.

Now, onto the important part I mentioned at the beginning. You probably noticed Mark's Moving Forward post. I was planning to write a bit more about it but in case it's not obvious yet - Otland is not a place to talk about money. We're not here to make money, pay money, etc. If money is your motivation, get a job and get paid well with the skills you learned here. This is an open sharing community and I worry that introducing "paid developers" who get "donations" will give people the wrong impression.

Maybe instead, we could come up with a method of project governance that does not include money but instead fixes issues, such as long review time, abandoned and piling up PRs, issues, lack of reviewers or lack of clear development plan.
 

nugo

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Let's skip the important part for now and I'll try to answer your questions.


It was done, in fact. Maybe not exactly the way it's being proposed right now (and that's not exactly settled) but there was a variation of it - Bountyource. We've had quite a few bounties available there, with $100+ bounties, some placed by members of the Staff here if I remember correctly.

The problem, besides what Bountysource pulled off trying to eat the money with ToS change, is that it didn't actually attract contributors. I can't say no bounty was ever claimed but I haven't seen one fulfilled/claimed. Now, we'll never know, because otland/forgottenserver was delisted from Bountysource and I don't really know why - I just hope the unclaimed bounties were refunded.

What I gather from this is that developers who are capable of solving difficult problems - the type that people would like to put a bounty on - do so without this monetary motivation. We have, after all, fixed many "big problems" in the years since the bounties were posted - there were contributors to code for free but no contributors to take the bounty, isn't that at least odd?


Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Probably no, things that make sense I have no problem setting up.

Definitely, if there exists a solution, I'd like to know about it.

Now, onto the important part I mentioned at the beginning. You probably noticed Mark's Moving Forward post. I was planning to write a bit more about it but in case it's not obvious yet - Otland is not a place to talk about money. We're not here to make money, pay money, etc. If money is your motivation, get a job and get paid well with the skills you learned here. This is an open sharing community and I worry that introducing "paid developers" who get "donations" will give people the wrong impression.

Maybe instead, we could come up with a method of project governance that does not include money but instead fixes issues, such as long review time, abandoned and piling up PRs, issues, lack of reviewers or lack of clear development plan.

Thanks for the comprehensive reply, appreciate it.

On the bounty source thing I really only figured out that existed about a year ago by accident, I really didn't even know it existed prior to the announcement post. It didn't have much visiabilty on the site and unless you stumbled across it you probably would find it.

I understand your point of view in regard to the open sourceness of the community. I can see the concern about handling money being possibly against OTlands original founding principles. However I really think the Otland ethos needs a tweak because personally I don't think the community is in the best health at the moment.

I would like to express a point of view, I think its imperative that a rule would be that any script/coding/whatever that is donated to must be public and remain open source. I'm against having a shop system were you "buy" things as that's not what this place is about but I personally can't see the harm in a monetary donation/subscription system with the caviart that people can only offer a service provided it stays public and open source.

It's not often that we get exceptionally skilled programmers like edubart and others that come by and offer their services I can't help but think of what would have happend if these types of donation systems exsisted prior to there arrival they may still be here. We could have a beast mode client with modules coming out of our eyes but instead someone took that client, added to it and sold it on.

Instead of just talking i will also do somthing about it. I will look into some ideas/solutions to this proposed idea and send them to you in a private message instead of going into detail here otherwise this post will become huge. I do project management for a living so I will present my ideas in a way that it can be easily implimented/maintained with little effort as site resources arent infinate. Then you guys are free to do what you want with the information, after all the staff run the place so the final decission is with them.

Once again appreciate the reply.

Cheers
 
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masteuszx

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The problem with otland forgottenserver is: main contributors do not fix tfs sources. There are MANY open issues that are not solved for a very long time. In few I spotted comment from otland contributors "please open a pull request" (I read it as: do it so we don't have to and we will decide whether you lost time).

There is insane amount of bugs that can be easily spotted while hosting live server with players. Also security vulnerabilities or outdated security: sha1 passwords! It feels like this project is basically abandoned.

plus: nobody is using official tfs server anymore. There are many better alternatives.
 

WibbenZ

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The problem with otland forgottenserver is: main contributors do not fix tfs sources. There are MANY open issues that are not solved for a very long time. In few I spotted comment from otland contributors "please open a pull request" (I read it as: do it so we don't have to and we will decide whether you lost time).

There is insane amount of bugs that can be easily spotted while hosting live server with players. Also security vulnerabilities or outdated security: sha1 passwords! It feels like this project is basically abandoned.

plus: nobody is using official tfs server anymore. There are many better alternatives.

I have said this before, but the contributors are not forced to upload PRs or w/e they are there to help with approving PRs.
Github = everyone can help, if you feel an issue has been open for way to long you can create a PR to fix that issue.
It was a diffrent story when TFS used the SVN where you had to donate (premium ACC) to get access to the latest changes and where you had X devs per project (ex 0.4) that worked on adding / fixing everything.

If you found these bugs have you reported them? Most of the dev team (me included) don't host a server, so none of us can find those problems / bugs and therefore rely on users actually reporting them and not just writing a forum post "there are problems with this server"

How is it abandoned? And what do you feel is a "better alternative"?
I'm guessing you think the BR TFS is that and they also use sha1 for PW encryptions, idk if there are more repos out there that are actively deved.
Ref BR sha1: opentibiabr/otservbr-global (https://github.com/opentibiabr/otservbr-global/blob/ed01cb2e61b4226877e28c144486d6a7179df172/src/iologindata.cpp#L44)
 

masteuszx

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I have said this before, but the contributors are not forced to upload PRs or w/e they are there to help with approving PRs.
Github = everyone can help, if you feel an issue has been open for way to long you can create a PR to fix that issue.
It was a diffrent story when TFS used the SVN where you had to donate (premium ACC) to get access to the latest changes and where you had X devs per project (ex 0.4) that worked on adding / fixing everything.

If you found these bugs have you reported them? Most of the dev team (me included) don't host a server, so none of us can find those problems / bugs and therefore rely on users actually reporting them and not just writing a forum post "there are problems with this server"

How is it abandoned? And what do you feel is a "better alternative"?
I'm guessing you think the BR TFS is that and they also use sha1 for PW encryptions, idk if there are more repos out there that are actively deved.
Ref BR sha1: opentibiabr/otservbr-global (https://github.com/opentibiabr/otservbr-global/blob/ed01cb2e61b4226877e28c144486d6a7179df172/src/iologindata.cpp#L44)
They are not forced, but still they are "otland contributors". If they do not feel like wanting to contribute, they should leave and let other willing to help. This position is not obligatory.

Well, this is what I am talking about. There are a lot of issues opened in github. I thought you become otland contributor when you actually contribute and fix problems reported. It is OTLAND's repository and you, as a part of a team, are responsible for maintaining it. It does not look good when your major project has bugs not being fixed for few months.

I am not talking about BR TFS. There are many others maintained repos.

Sha1 is deprecated in the world of security and I do not really understand why you did not push modern encryption methods as a standard.
I feel like there is no one to push project forward like there is no real leadership. There are some fancy problems being fixed.
But problems with stacking and throwing objects to backpack is still kind of bugged.
When you add items to multipage container while being on page 2 you see a bug (bad iteration).
otland/forgottenserver (https://github.com/otland/forgottenserver/issues) - there is a ready solution for segfault bug - there is no one willing to copy paste a solution.

There is major problem with checkSightLine (on rl it works completly different).

monsters dont walk the shortest way to a player if he's moving

etc etc

Yes, this repo is not maintained properly.
 
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Xikini

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There is major problem with checkSightLine (on rl it works completly different).
There is an on-going attempt to fix this, that is part of the tfs 1.4 milestone.

When you add items to multipage container while being on page 2 you see a bug (bad iteration).
Can you explain this better and/or provide video?
I tested this interaction based on your description and cannot find an issue.
 

masteuszx

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There is an on-going attempt to fix this, that is part of the tfs 1.4 milestone.


Can you explain this better and/or provide video?
I tested this interaction based on your description and cannot find an issue.
open depot, put (page size+5) items, go to page 2, add item/move last item to depot to page 2, look at (page size+1) item
 

Xikini

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open depot, put (page size+5) items, go to page 2, add item/move last item to depot to page 2, look at (page size+1) item
lmao. I just don't get it.

Can someone translate for me?
I really want to understand this.
 

masteuszx

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lmao. I just don't get it.

Can someone translate for me?
I really want to understand this.
my solution for a problem stated above is:

that line should be changed so there isn’t 1 substracted from index

I don’t have time to create videos or provide more detailed explanation. You might open a pull request if you agree with me or ignore it completely.
 

Nekiro

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If we had the support from "server owners" then maybe tfs could move forward :)
But all of you just keep shit for yourself and don't bother to create issue which takes 2 min of your very "busy" life.
Things you mentioned like some pagination was never reported, sight line is known from long time, it's just not as easy to fix as go and change two lines of code.
Also "there is insane amount of bugs" doesn't help anyone, you are just complaining at this point without even contributing with them.
So stop being a hypocrite and if you are so sure of these bugs maybe help the "otland developers" and contribute with them?
 

oen432

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But all of you just keep shit for yourself and don't bother to create issue which takes 2 min of your very "busy" life.
Not all ;) But at some point you just stop caring.
commented on Oct 31, 2019
 

Nemphis

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I know a server that has been holding their shit for themselves but recently started sharing and giving pulls to OTClient and making it more stable. Its stuff that all servers should have from the start, increasing the stability of OTClients foundation. But they dont want the attention so I cant say who it is. Their username on github is not the same on Otland.
 

masteuszx

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If we had the support from "server owners" then maybe tfs could move forward . But all of you just keep shit for yourself and don't bother to create issue which takes 2 min of your very "busy" life.
Things you mentioned like some pagination was never reported, sight line is known from long time, it's just not as easy to fix as go and change two lines of code.
Also "there is insane amount of bugs" doesn't help anyone, you are just complaining at this point without even contributing with them.
So stop being a hypocrite and if you are so sure of these bugs maybe help the "otland developers" and contribute with them?
As I said there are a lot of issues which are not being fixed. For me creating an issue with proper explanation takes longer than solving an issue by myself. Additionally, when I or someone else propose a fix otland team debates few months whether it should be merged or not, because “you don’t get it”. Of course some bugs are hard to reproduce or to explain, but I feel like you don’t even try to dig deeper. You just give up.

Like with this pagination. I would love to provide videos and pictures but I don’t have time for it.

Argument that bugs are not reported from server owners... If no one does a report, is it really problem with owners or with your report system?
 

Xikini

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I mean this thread really boils down to this, right?

Free, Open Sourced Project, get's used by tons of users.
Free, Open Sourced Project has some issues.
Lots of users notice the issues, but don't report the issues, assuming it will be fixed by someone else.
X months later, some people complain that the "known issues" aren't being fixed.
The Free, Open Sourced Project was unaware of the "known issues" because nobody had reported them.
The people complaining about the "known issues" get frustrated that the issues that were never reported are not being fixed, and finds a solution.
They then tell the Free, Open Sourced Project months later that they resolved the issue already (the one that was never reported, and still isn't reported) and again wonder why the "known issues" are never being resolved.

--
So.. who's at fault?

The Free, Open Sourced Project?
The users?

Is it the F,OSP's fault for not making it known how/where to report the issues?
Or is it lots of users fault for making little to no effort at all to report the issues?
--

The issue is pretty clear.
Issues are not known by the F,OSP.. so they are not being fixed.

So.. how do we, the users, solve that?
 
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