Tibiantis - reversed old Tibia project - discussion thread

[kay]

Yes. You do underestimate power of cheaters. It's 2020, not 2006. They don't use simple bots that bind to some RAM addresses and call some functions in your client. They use neural-networks and image analysis to read information from your client. They move mouse and press keyboard 'like real human'.
You can't block all bots, after long fight on Kasteria (new client, new packets in client, statistical analysis of 'game' of every player based on movies), we gave up and decided to ban 2 kinds of bots: exp bots and war bots (auto ssa, auto energy ring, but that bot is hard to detect as players just bind mouse move to hotkey to make 'auto equip').

If you are talking about 7.4 style.. my friend had UH maker on real tibia that was 2nd HIGHEST magic level on world Secura.. and you want to ban UH makers to make it 'real'?

EDIT:
I forgot most important thing: you will spend 2000 hours to prepare that all and 5 minutes after start some faggot will DDoS you with 820gb/s UDP, 50k IPs that pass reCaptcha and CloudFlare and few others 'common attacks in tibia community'
That's how it ends ALWAYS on Kasteria. We work hard to make some new content, fix most important bugs and after start we got 2-3 days on constant DDoS attacks. Every start - from 3 years - we get new kind of attack, which means that someone spends much time or pay a lot to prepare these attacks.
People say that 'kasteria attacked me'. You may belive me or not, but we NEVER attacked any other server.

Excuse the question, but what is your post even supposed to mean? "Hello, we are Kasteria and we gave up on banning botters, cause we couldn't handle it" or "Hey, don't even bother trying because your server will be brought down by DDoS (PS it's not us!!!)"?

Just to point out:

1. You don't even know us, so how can you tell what we do or do not underestimate? I mean where exactly did you read that from? Did you see me claim we could completly BLOCK all kind of cheats? If you actually read this thread carefully, or atleast the first two pages, you'd see I've never claimed preventing all cheating is even possible by ANYONE. Since the very beginning I was always saying it's a constant never-ending armaments race in which you need to fight ACTIVELY and never stop. Not just blindly believe that you already have some fancy system or airy-fairy "anti-bot client" that will do the job. So if you ever thought your system WOULD do the job (your post kinda implies that), you were the ignorant one who underestimated cheaters, not us.
We will have several independent things to prevent and/or detect some kind of cheating - to start with - but many times I openly said there are always ways to bypass and new bots will be created, that's why there must be a human on the last layer. Harsh punishment (deletion of all accounts, not just the character that was cheated on) is also absolutely indispensable, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Kasteria used to give 7 days bans?
We are willing to take part in such race and spend our time on, that's what I'm saying. Since you admit to have given up - you apparently were not willing. So which of these sentences actually show WE underestimated cheaters?
And as I said, you don't know our team, but you might atleast know Lord. Then you should also know he's not the first random guy, since a few years ago Kasteria itself (Eloth back then) used to hire him as a programmer for some anti-cheating stuff, didn't it?

2. So what that your friend had an uhmaker back in the days? Many people did, still doesn't mean it's a game feature lol. It's only that Cip had nothing to fight cheaters with. Just GMs that were way too few and lacked any tools to even work effectively. Nowhere we said we intended to copy that.

3. As for DDoS - firstly, we are aware of the issue and expect to be heavily attacked. It was one of the very first things we've been discussing. We're willing to try and let them waste that money, whoever does it. Secondly, we're not going to accuse anyone, so there's no need to come here and announce it's not you. Neither did we attack anyone or intend to, but we just take it as an obviousness that every server gets attacked. Somehow many of them are still running though. If our server is to be taken down, then so be it. But so far no DDoS happened and no one in the thread said a single word about "Kasteria DDoSing", so I honestly have no idea why you are here already defending yourself?

PS which Kasteria bot is based on neural-networks? the one that Kasteria's owner used to put a hundred fake chars on?

 

[rodsel]

when is this server coming out i cant waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait xD

 

[Tony32]

Yes. You do underestimate power of cheaters. It's 2020, not 2006.

I think its rather the opposite. You overestimate the cheaters. You say it like cheaters today that has AI that can fool humans. Ha. There is no AI in this world that can 100% fool a human into thinking its a human. Do you think silly Tibia bots can do that? All bots are highly recognizable. You can tell just in a few seconds if someone is cheating or not. Doesnt matter how they do it. As long as the cheat cant think and act like a real human, it's gonna be very easy to find and wipe them. What you really need is active GMs tbh.

Its so simple.
Auto responders, you can tell in an instant if its a bot or not
Movement, same thing. Humans dont hunt for 5 hours using mapwalk and follow.
Attacking, same thing. Humans arent predicable with targeting and looting, bots are.
Runemaking. Casting spells within intervals (random intervals or not, humans doesnt cast rune making spell within XXXX amounts of MS accurately for Y amount of hours a day, while in the same time dancing within ZZZZ interval)
Not responding at all
Massive groups of low levels
Stacked groups outside player housing
Auto logouts
Auto walk into houses
And the list goes on an on. If you honestly get fooled by cheaters, you must be pretty.. Uhm.. Well. Nevermind.

 

[Antony Cordeiro]

I think its rather the opposite. You overestimate the cheaters. You say it like cheaters today that has AI that can fool humans. Ha. There is no AI in this world that can 100% fool a human into thinking its a human. Do you think silly Tibia bots can do that? All bots are highly recognizable. You can tell just in a few seconds if someone is cheating or not. Doesnt matter how they do it. As long as the cheat cant think and act like a real human, it's gonna be very easy to find and wipe them. What you really need is active GMs tbh.

Its so simple.
Auto responders, you can tell in an instant if its a bot or not
Movement, same thing. Humans dont hunt for 5 hours using mapwalk and follow.
Attacking, same thing. Humans arent predicable with targeting and looting, bots are.
Runemaking. Casting spells within intervals (random intervals or not, humans doesnt cast rune making spell within XXXX amounts of MS accurately for Y amount of hours a day, while in the same time dancing within ZZZZ interval)
Not responding at all
Massive groups of low levels
Stacked groups outside player housing
Auto logouts
Auto walk into houses
And the list goes on an on. If you honestly get fooled by cheaters, you must be pretty.. Uhm.. Well. Nevermind.

Ok and how you detect if someone is using 20 multiclients? with full alarms and he never afks 100%?
How you do that? This hurts the server so much and its really impossible to avoid.
I wonder how gms are going to do that

 

[222222]

I have a 1:1 replica of Tibia 7.4. Exact map (no other map from any other distro or the 7.72 CipSoft map has been used), solely using thousands of TibiCAM 7.4 recs for it (including hundreds of my own recordings). It's 100%, including real NPCs (some NPCs outfit colors/shades differ from the 7.72 files - I have included even those changes!), real monsters and their spawn positions, real spells/formulas, all texts (blackboard, signs, gravestones, etc.), all keys, all special tiles (pick spots, switches, etc.), real exhausts, real positions (counsellor, tutor, gm, etc.. and their respective rights/access/chats), exactly the same textures on map (swamp bubbles, dirt floor, etc.), all raids (and their timing/randomization). All that I am missing is about 50% of the quest scripts. All other actions like levers are done. Just a matter of scripting the quests. It is running on the original 7.4 client, no modifications made what-so-ever. Let me know if you're interested in it. I've played a lot of 7.4 OTs but nothing comes close to this. I can even see some flaws in your "replica" in this thread. I will finish scripting the quests within the next weeks and then it is complete.

I even have the complete website for it, made my own "AAC" from scratch - but the HTML and CSS has been modernized because CipSoft's table design is awful and full of bugs. Things like guild and housing system works phenomenal, just like in real Tibia. In the game; I only use CipSofts own gamemaster commands/spells. You can not buy houses in the game, it is all done on the website with a bidding system just like real Tibia. The only custom commands I have added is the !online (for online list), /a (teleport sqms) and /n or /i (create items), but I plan to delete these once it's done.

I have no intentions of hosting a such server publicly, it's been my project for the past year and a half. I will most likely release it all for free once I am done. I just want to preserve the original Tibia 7.4. I am a perfectionist when it comes to these details and I've made sure that every detail of the map is exactly as it was on Tibia 7.4. I even have a list of the original MotD (message of the days) that were used from the entire 7.4 client (from launch until end). Also, I will make sure that the website looks the same as on the last day of Tibia 7.4, with the same news post on front etc. Only difference will be the online amount of course, and the server name(s). The rest will stay exactly the same, as if you've entered a time machine.

Even useless small things out in forests where nobody will even notice, the borders around stone tiles are exactly the same. The swamps are the same, the beaches, everything. If there was even a small detail like a leaf on the ground, I will have included that. When I say 1:1 replica - I mean it. This is taken straight from over 3300 TibiCAMs from 7.4 explicitly.

 

[Jhon_]

there is a creature behavior, which is only seen in 2 or 3 places in the tibia 7.4 map

 

[Deduch]

@222222
Are you planning to start the server soon?
From week to week I feel that "Torgera" (Tibiantis) will be a failure

 

[kay]

@222222
That's a good effort and good to see an enthusiast
We have our own map tracker to extract real 7.4 map out of old .rec files too. But such map is only useful for comparison/correction. Tibia map isn't only floors, walls and trees, but alot of other data, that you won't get to know about that way. Starting from flags (and we do have original tibia refresh floor system) and all the moveable/changable objects. Not even fluids/splashes you can get since client receives info about its color only, which is ambiguous.
So unless you have some advanced tool to merge your map with cipsoft map, it won't be authentic without all those things.

Most of the rest you mentioned it just to read from 7.7 files.
Monsters' spawns are quite the same, except for a few spawns here and there. The main difference is the spawn algorithm, and we already use the real 7.4 one.
Keys, blackboards, raids etc. too.
Spells, exhaust etc. we do have as well, including god/gm spells.
I'd also like to side-note here that if you use TFS as a base, it most likely won't be accurate anyway when it comes to exhaust/delay system.

As for website, we also have our own one, with auctions etc., it only needs a few corrections and a proper layout for now, that's why we don't put it online yet.

Overall, most of the things you've mentioned we do already have, so we wouldn't be interested in buying it, if that's what you meant. If you mean contributing, then sure, it'd be highly interesting to take a look at. But it's your work and up to you what you do with it.

Also if you spotted any flaws, feel free to address them Except for sprites, that were all fixed since we've made our client to use the original 7.4 spr file.

 

[Under Influence]

People are so obsessed with 7.4, I never understood why. The last real old school Tibia update was 7.2 with the introduction of Ghostlands which still resembled the old versions. 7.3 they added their first theme-park and started the GFB hunting spawns and 7.4 just made the Ank spawns more OP, then 7.5 they went totally nuts ruining the economy with Hydras and the anti-macro/trap stuff.

At least these guys recognize how bad Ankrhamun was flawed. Having a 7.1 or 7.2 real tibia map that would be an achievement, 7.1 map would be awesome because most things were daily respawns and the map changed a lot everywhere between 7.1 and 7.2.

 

[kay]

People are so obsessed with 7.4, I never understood why. The last real old school Tibia update was 7.2 with the introduction of Ghostlands which still resembled the old versions. 7.3 they added their first theme-park and started the GFB hunting spawns and 7.4 just made the Ank spawns more OP, then 7.5 they went totally nuts ruining the economy with Hydras and the anti-macro/trap stuff.

At least these guys recognize how bad Ankrhamun was flawed. Having a 7.1 or 7.2 real tibia map that would be an achievement, 7.1 map would be awesome because most things were daily respawns and the map changed a lot everywhere between 7.1 and 7.2.

That's so true, if you look at that, 7.4-7.6 was the era of changes that resulted in a very quick levels devaluation.
I personally enjoyed 7.2/7.3 times the most. Despite it had new quest system and in 7.3 came Ankrahmun, not the deeper tombs yet though. But the truth is also that older versions, especially when you go back to 7.1, had many other weaknesses. So it'd had to be re-balanced either way.
That's why we chose to keep 7.4 as a base, bring back the forgotten features (such as overspawn) and rework what was already broken: Ankrahmun terrain (also leaves us some space for custom content, without expanding the map) and quests. As for quests, all the small ones will exists just as original, we're only reworking those that flood the server with alot of good equipment sets for little to no risk/effort.
We might later let a few sprites versions to choose as well (from 7.1 to 7.4). But that's not of the highest priority now.
Btw. it would be hard to get a real 7.1 map, since TibiCam came only in 7.2. So you'd have to base it off on screenshots.

 

[check]

I'm paying $500 for a map tracker that works on Tibia 7.4 with original TibiCAM files.
I want to watch old 7.4 recordings, run the Map Tracker and it will automatically create a .otbm file

I have a 1:1 replica of Tibia 7.4.

When I say 1:1 replica - I mean it. This is taken straight from over 3300 TibiCAMs from 7.4 explicitly.

@222222 I doubt you have 1:1 map replica. But, I might be wrong. Time will show when you release it when it's done.

 

[222222]

@222222 I doubt you have 1:1 map replica. But, I might be wrong. Time will show when you release it when it's done.

I just bought a map tracker few days ago to finish the missing parts and verify some areas the past days. So yes, it is complete now. It will be released once it's 100% done with the quests. I'm writing my own server now since Avesta was crap and is missing a ton of functions I need for quests. I'll probably be done within a month or two.

 

[Worr]

People are so obsessed with 7.4, I never understood why. The last real old school Tibia update was 7.2 with the introduction of Ghostlands which still resembled the old versions. 7.3 they added their first theme-park and started the GFB hunting spawns and 7.4 just made the Ank spawns more OP, then 7.5 they went totally nuts ruining the economy with Hydras and the anti-macro/trap stuff.

At least these guys recognize how bad Ankrhamun was flawed. Having a 7.1 or 7.2 real tibia map that would be an achievement, 7.1 map would be awesome because most things were daily respawns and the map changed a lot everywhere between 7.1 and 7.2.

It's just where we ended up. At first people only played 7.6 because that's where OT took off. The transition to 7.72 came naturally when parts of the leaked files were made public, in combination with client support for DX9 and Open GL which made the game run smoother.

The transition to 7.4 was mostly based around PvP in my opinion, so thoughts about map and quest design came second. The focus was pretty much only on mage balance (spell costs, mana fluid nerf and so on).

Essentially, nobody looked at the aspects you're describing when choosing a client version. You bring up interesting points though.

I do think that while adding aimbot in 7.8 crossed a line, the spell changes in 7.6 were healthy to combat bots. Admins often seem to go for 7.4 with promises to combat cheating, without considering that afk rune farms was essential to the 7.4 "meta".

 

[kay]

I do think that while adding aimbot in 7.8 crossed a line, the spell changes in 7.6 were healthy to combat bots. Admins often seem to go for 7.4 with promises to combat cheating, without considering that afk rune farms was essential to the 7.4 "meta".

Not at all, those changes only made leveling up a mage so easy that there was no point to play other vocations anymore. It resulted in a spill of many high level mages in a short time. After a year and a huge amount of complaints Cipsoft decided to highly boost knight's and paladin's damage to "balance" that out.
For botting it was also a time of bloom.

The reason why 7.4 is used (instead of 7.1-7.3) is that it already got rid of many issues, had a few additional functionalities, and was still considered "oldschool" enough.
7.1 didn't have skulls, 7.2 still lacked party system, 7.3 no skillbars yet etc., that's only speaking about client. Cause if we go to the server's side, there's a whole lot more. But I agree, in some terms those versions were better than 7.4.

 

[222222]

I'd say 7.4 is the best version because that's the "peak" of Tibian community for me. No rune shops = people were forced to make runes. And it was not so buggy (as 7.1).

 

[Mr. Greyshade]

 

[Valar]

What about the sky, is it gonne be retail 100 %? If not, please delay start, trees and stones are really important for me, sky especially.

 

[Tony32]

Ok and how you detect if someone is using 20 multiclients? with full alarms and he never afks 100%?
How you do that? This hurts the server so much and its really impossible to avoid.
I wonder how gms are going to do that

Using the exact same methods I mentioned earlier. Cheaters are predictable. Doesnt matter if they are 300 of them, all scattered around the map.

 

[Antony Cordeiro]

Using the exact same methods I mentioned earlier. Cheaters are predictable. Doesnt matter if they are 300 of them, all scattered around the map.

Nope. Someone who is on screen 100% of the time and just cast runes. No autologout.
How can that be predictable?

 

[misiaczek11]

Nope. Someone who is on screen 100% of the time and just cast runes. No autologout.
How can that be predictable?

I think it's no point to speak with you... EVEN if someone is on the PC and using tools like casting runes you can just add them mana and check... There is a lot of methods.