Dishonesty in the OTS community (starting off with the OTS Septera/Nostalria)

[e.e]

Hello.

First some background about this thread:
Previously there were posts made in the Septera OT advertisement thread for criticizing the OT owners for lying in their thread (spoilers: I made the/that post) that were all deleted for being "off-topic" and for "starting a flame-war".
Here's the URL to the thread/page: [France] Septera - 7.x - ONLINE
I had a discussion with WibbenZ about it and got the approval to create a thread about this in the Discussion or Chit Chat sections of the forum instead, so I'll post it here.
At the same time he seems to be saying that ANY thread on this forum that ends up in a flame war will either be deleted or have the flaming posts deleted, so that's interesting. Gotta just pray to God that nobody says anything inflammatory I guess.
If I still end up getting banned for this you know where to find me in the future (signature).
I'm also trying to design a system for my new OTS forum website in the future where there'll be a good balance between civilized discussion, honest opinions no matter what it is*, categorized polling and OT server reviews by the people.
All of these features might not make it, but that's my aim.

* Except obviously don't break any laws, no illegal content, etc, and no extreme/aggressive bullying. More about that later, I can't be explicit here.

Now what this thread is actually about:
I'm tired of liars, cheats, and hacks. Lets restore the community spirit of OTS by driving the wicked out and replacing it with the good old creative and relatively honest community that the OTS community used to, or maybe aim for something even better.
Simply: the thread is about exposing lying/dishonest OT hosters with facts. I'll be starting out with Septera/Nostalria.

Here's the posts that were deleted from Septera.
I suggest you read more than the first couple of first posts before making a judgment since some context may be needed to understand why I "seemed so aggressive" with my first two posts:

 

[Raggaer]

This is a needed thread, we need to stop these shitty servers. Hopefully its not deleted in a few hours

 

[Yngwie]

Posts were deleted for a reason, we should respect the moderators decision. On behalf of the Septera staff, I apologize for our participation in the discussion. It was immature and we shouldn't have nor will we behave that way in the future. Furthermore I apologize to you for any arguments and/or insults you feel that we delivered towards you.

Septera is clearly a new project with many issues, bugs and inaccuracies that we're constantly working on improving. And I know you're a much more established and experienced server owner/developer and I respect you for that. I wish you good luck in your future endeavors and I hope our project will be as successful as yours in the future.

I hope all parties can find peace and leave this pointless argument. I'll make sure to be more upfront and accurate in my claims in the future, I did not perceive what I said as inaccurate personally, but based on your reaction I do understand that I could have been more clear when advertising as it evidently was misinterpreted and upsetting to some, a mistake on my behalf that I sincerely apologize for.

Furthermore, I wasn't aware that a server had to be perfected prior to launch. I was under the impression that a project could be launched as a work in progress so that my brothers and enemies would have a place to fight since there were seemingly no other servers available that worked well for PvP.


Kind Regards,
Yngwie - Frontline God, Justicar of the Damodreds, Warlord of Medivia and Septera project manager.
(jkjk just wanted to end the post cheesy to lighten up the mood)

 

[e.e]

Posts were deleted for a reason, we should respect the moderators decision. On behalf of the Septera staff, I apologize for our participation in the discussion. It was immature and we shouldn't have nor will we behave that way in the future. Furthermore I apologize to you for any arguments and/or insults you feel that we delivered towards you.

Septera is clearly a new project with many issues, bugs and inaccuracies that we're constantly working on improving. And I know you're a much more established and experienced server owner/developer and I respect you for that. I wish you good luck in your future endeavors and I hope our project will be as successful as yours in the future.

I hope all parties can find peace and leave this pointless argument. I'll make sure to be more upfront and accurate in my claims in the future, I did not perceive what I said as inaccurate personally, but based on your reaction I do understand that I could have been more clear when advertising as it evidently was misinterpreted and upsetting to some, a mistake on my behalf that I sincerely apologize for.

Furthermore, I wasn't aware that a server had to be perfected prior to launch. I was under the impression that a project could be launched as a work in progress so that my brothers and enemies would have a place to fight since there were seemingly no other servers available that worked well for PvP.


Kind Regards,
Yngwie - Frontline God, Justicar of the Damodreds, Warlord of Medivia and Septera project manager.
(jkjk just wanted to end the post cheesy to lighten up the mood)

Hi.
I'm not exactly sure where to start so I think I'll just keep it clean and clarify to you what my problems with Septera is by making and sharing this list to you of problems I have with Septera + some problems I have with your post here as well.

• My original and main problem with Septera's thread is that the advertisement is clearly disingenuous, in fact the advertisement completely contradicts what you just said; that the server is full of issues, bugs and inaccuracies.
  Here's some snippets that can also be shown above in the screenshot, but I'll include it again, that are still parts of the current advertisement thread at this writing second:
  

  Further the server has perfect conversions of Cipsoft files, guaranteeing that everything works "almost" perfectly with unique features not seen on any other server than Cipsofts.

  This Highrate aims to bring you the most authentic lowrate experience without being slow, to give you a feel of what this server actually offers in terms of mechanics, accuracy and authenticity.

  I'm not even going to question the claim that you've got the "correct damage formulas" that is also claimed in the thread even though it sounds very suspicious, nor the claim that you have a former Medivia staff which is also claimed in Septera's thread. (but btw on that topic, what position did this person have exactly? ex-tutor? ex-forum-moderator for 2 weeks? or an actual developer of the Medivia Game Server?) since I don't think it's completely necessary to go as far as asking for evidence of this at this point (though it would help your reputation tremendously at this point...)
  So let me just address these two snippets/quotes.
  In the first one you make some extremely powerful yet completely unsubstantiated claims that makes your OT sound like it was almost developed by CipSoft themselves.
  You use the word "perfect" twice in just once sentence; perfect conversion, works "almost" perfectly, btw what does "almost" in quotes mean? And then you claim it has "unique features not seen on any other servers than Cipsofts".
  Great, that sounds super, now what are you guys ACTUALLY talking about? What unique features, what perfect conversions, what ex-Medivia staff member, what works "almost" perfectly?
  You're just making general and completely unsubstantiated claims, just like advertising companies that gets sued IRL for false advertisement.
  And when I actually logged onto your OT I noticed the mechanics were all wrong before I even got to kill my first rat! (the 3 things I immediately noticed before I logged out after killing my first rat are mentioned in the top of the screenshot, I already had a couple more tests in mind that I didn't even bother trying out, but I'm pretty sure your OT would fail those tests as well, though obviously I can't say for sure, it's just a... strong guess).
• You talk about the server containing many bugs, issues and inaccuracies, yet the server seem to be selling a completely different idea in general - it's not a test server, or at least there's no mention of it in the advertising thread, and the advertisement thread, like discussed in the previous point, is full of boastful claims about everything working "almost" perfectly, with your own quotes around almost as if you're suggesting that it's ACTUALLY perfect, but lets just put "almost" there to pull a "humblebrag".
• It would help if either Septera could identify you as a part of the staff and that you have the authority to speak for them in any way so as to know whether your apology is actually on Septera's behalf or it's just on your own personal behalf as a Septera staff member claiming to speak on behalf of Septera (or neither).
• The tone of your entire post sounds more like you're playing some strange game, sucking up to the moderators in the first line, apologizing for "hurting my feelings" in the next, then playing the role of the underdog in the next; "you're so established and respected and experienced, we're just a new little server, please don't crush our poor innocent little server we're really good and honest people with a server that is a little buggy, why are you doing this? ", then you're acting the diplomat in the next line, and then you're kinda all defensive in the next. Like you're absolutely all over the place, and at least some of what you're saying just makes me think you're not really here to apologize, but instead trying to restore your reputation by trying to make me look bad for criticizing you...
  If this is the case then I've gotta say, you guys really know how to play games, so I'll have to at least give you an A for effort.
• I think there are a bunch more minor points, but I'm bored and I've pretty much forgotten all about what those points were anyways at this point.

 

[Xikini]

Jesus Christ.
The tldr of this thread would take 6 paragraphs.
And we're only on the 5th post.

I suggest putting the 8000 lines in a spoiler and giving a tldr from here on out.

 

[e.e]

@Xikini
I don't think TLDR's are viable when it comes to discussing the details of advertisements and trying to expose lies.
Liars are notoriously slippery and dishonest, it's not a simple domain that you can usually make quick responses to and accomplish anything.

 

[Worr]

I don't mind these kind of threads. In fact, I think it's better than having these types of discussion in the advertisement sections, because they can easily go off-topic. What started out as valid criticism of Septera turned into a shitfest. I appreciate feedback on whatever I'm working at, but not in the form of competitors with no actual interest in the product. In that case, it's better to start a separate discussion thread like this. When mods at some point decided to jump in and cut off the off-topic discussions in an advertisement thread, then they will more likely than not cut off too much or too little.

About your bullet points:

"And then you claim it has 'unique features not seen on any other servers than Cipsofts.'"

I noticed this in the advertisement thread too. You mentioned line of sight and properties for throwing items very briefly and then move past it to question what is unique with Septera. You just mentioned it, buddy.

Septera, Cipsoft (rl tibia) and the leaked Cipsoft server engine has correct line of sight and properties for throwing items. The difference between Septera and the leaked engine is that we converted these features to an engine that we have the sources for.

The "almost perfectly" is there for a reason. We have the upside of having the sources, but we've obviously created something new. It will have bugs. We have done testing, but it's not bug free. That is one of the reason why Septera 1.0 is a highrate server. It's not a "test server" – it will run until the players are tired of it and nobody plays it anymore – but it's more suitable for testing out the engine than e.g a low-rate server.

 

[e.e]

I don't mind these kind of threads. In fact, I think it's better than having these types of discussion in the advertisement sections, because they can easily go off-topic. What started out as valid criticism of Septera turned into a shitfest.

I think it says more about Septera than anything if you look at their response.
I'll accept responsibility for seeming and being a little aggressive/harsh; some of it was my frustration/exhaustion of lies and hypocrisy that I see everyday both IRL and on this forum and it disgusts me more than anything else, so I may have come off a little stronger than I should have, i.e. my post may have been perceived by some to be blaming Septera crew for being the only liars out there by misunderstanding my usage of the word "they" for example.
So part of my first couple of posts were aimed specifically at Septera, some of it was general, and maybe that contributed in some way to some kind of misunderstanding and combativeness, I'm not sure, but it's possible.
And I'm sure my second post may have seemed more aggressive than it actually was too, considering the viewers may have lacked the context to understand why I decided to share Tinkz's PMs to me about the issue, the reason being that he's been deceptive like this before, I handled it the right way (through PMs) back then, and he was being completely two-faced in the moment, so I had enough of him at that point.

I appreciate feedback on whatever I'm working at, but not in the form of competitors with no actual interest in the product.

What you're insinuating here is just not true, that I have no interest (or anti-interests) in other OTS/hosts.
I knew all along that Tinkz for example was working on a server like this (I just didn't know his server was rebranded as Septera), and I had been in touch with and been trying to help him previously.
I also worked with Peonso earlier to help him out with figuring out some of the mechanics of Realots so that it can be put into an open source server, until I realized he was a very disrespectful troll in the end.
And before that I helped over 10 people, one of them being Kungenn (I didn't know it at the point as they were visiting my server in 2016 without identifying themselves), to setup Realots themselves...
Did I get anything from any of them in return? No. I just like helping and working with people.

In that case, it's better to start a separate discussion thread like this. When mods at some point decided to jump in and cut off the off-topic discussions in an advertisement thread, then they will more likely than not cut off too much or too little.

Have you actually worked on Septera's server? If so I'd like to first say that you absolutely behaved the most responsible and calm out of the lot, perhaps myself included (at least in one way -- I was pretty "out there" in terms of intensity), and I'm sorry for barking or growling at you or whatever, I was under the impression/assumption that you were just an overly attached fan riding their d's because you like their OT and will defend them absolutely no matter what using any tactic even if they're completely in the wrong on absolutely all accounts.
If that assumption/impression was incorrect then I shouldn't have acted like that towards you at all.

"And then you claim it has 'unique features not seen on any other servers than Cipsofts.'"

I noticed this in the advertisement thread too. You mentioned line of sight and properties for throwing items very briefly and then move past it to question what is unique with Septera. You just mentioned it, buddy.

This sounded like a bad joke to me at first.
First of all I find it highly unlikely that no other OT has "fixed" their line of sight. It sounds like a pretty trivial thing, and not some complicated mystery that nobody else has been able to figure out, so I think it's highly likely that somebody else has already got this.
Secondly, well, I was under the impression that a "feature" was a distinct term, at least in the context of software, meaning something like a holistic or complicated function.
For example with this board: posting, searching, editing posts and sending PMs are all examples of unique features in my book, but "searching" vs "advanced search" would not be unique or distinct features in my book, but then I actually looked up the definition of the word and it doesn't seem like I have a case to actually argue this, since the definition is far more vague.
I could argue that the use of this word for such a trivial technicality is muddying the waters though, and that their usage of the word is extremely vague and useless.
If you use such a vague definition for "feature", you could then literally say that every OT out there, I mean literally if you edit one line of code in an OT, then it automatically has "unique features" or "unique characteristics" by that definition.
So to use that word in that way is clearly a dishonest marketing tool, as I've argued earlier, but I guess they might not be directly lying by using that word in that way, they're just being dishonest, I guess a congratulations is in order for their improvement from directly lying about everything else to now just being vaguely dishonest.

Also, I did not mention properties of throwing items. I mentioned their claim that they're using the original objects.srv file format, which is absolutely worthless as far as I can tell other than internal cosmetic reasons.
Basically they're bragging about how nice and unique their items.xml file looks like to them while making it sound like it has any server effect which are not documented and which I highly doubt there are (I tried to ask Tinkz about it and he just answered with more arrogance and sarcasm, telling me "I should know better considering I'm the master of Realots" or whatever. What a great clarification!).

Septera, Cipsoft (rl tibia) and the leaked Cipsoft server engine has correct line of sight and properties for throwing items. The difference between Septera and the leaked engine is that we converted these features to an engine that we have the sources for.

*Slow clap*

The "almost perfectly" is there for a reason. We have the upside of having the sources, but we've obviously created something new. It will have bugs. We have done testing, but it's not bug free. That is one of the reason why Septera 1.0 is a highrate server. It's not a "test server" – it will run until the players are tired of it and nobody plays it anymore – but it's more suitable for testing out the engine than e.g a low-rate server.

Ok. So you don't think Septera could be clearer in their advertisement then?

 

[Groggy]

Now what this thread is actually about:
I'm tired of liars, cheats, and hacks. Lets restore the community spirit of OTS by driving the wicked out and replacing it with the good old creative and relatively honest community that the OTS community used to, or maybe aim for something even better.
Simply: the thread is about exposing lying/dishonest OT hosters with facts. I'll be starting out with Septera/Nostalria.

Out of the many things i can gather from your posts, the thing that really makes me laugh - that you concider yourself part of the "old creative and relatively honest community".
You only come to this forum to shit on other developers that are more succesful than you. Let's see where that get's you, how long have you been working on your "perfect realots server"? Those 5 people who will play it will have to wait 2 more years i guess, having internet arguments is higher priority.

 

[e.e]

@Groggy
Nice demo of what a shitpost looks like. Anyway, what makes you think I wasn't a part of the old OT community?
Also, I've been working on it for about 6 months, 80% of it has been focused on developing tools, figuring everything out and learning, not desperately trying to launch ASAP for a quick buck.
Do you have any idea how long it took me to run the first server btw? About a week after I read the released distro thread for the first time, and unlike people like Kungenn and a lot of other hosters of this OT, I didn't get or need anyone's help except for reading old posts and figuring the rest out for myself.
What have you accomplished, buddy?

PS: To everyone else, I'll be gone for the weekend and leaving in just a few hours, I'll be back next week for more analysis/drama/whatever, don't miss me too much <3

 

[Groggy]

My accomplishments are not related to hosting tibia servers, but then again neither are yours.

 

[e.e]

Nice dodge, but no, I've got both Zanera and Realots working well enough for people, myself included, to play on it, and I've been accomplishing everything I've wanted to accomplish so far within reasonable time frames. I never had an expectation to host Realots the next day with everything setup and working perfectly (only a complete retard would; I'm looking at you buddy), and unlike these guys like Septera crew, I never claimed I was going to either
Tell me though, I'm really curious, what have you been up to lately, professionally speaking?
There must be something, probably really big, considering how you're acting here

 

[Antony Cordeiro]

e.e nobody will play your ot, even if you try to replicate cipsoft, be sure you will never have than 50 players. you are very frustrated you are wasting your life for nothing. I will make sure your ot never sucess

 

[xKrazyx]

How much time you've spent crafting these posts could have created the next Medivia by now xD

Anyhoo so about dishonesty..

Your mad about ots false advertising then help me make some change about Xinn allowing servers to spoof while banning other servers who don't pay him .

Your frustrated devs call their servers cipsoft file only.. imagine if your competition was allowed to spoof 800 players and not be banned because he throws money at the owner on otservlist which you rely on to expand your playerbase haha

Thats what im annoyed with xD

You wanna talk about "liars, cheats, and hacks, dishonesty".

lets talk about the monopoly Xinn's been running with these spoof servers who keep throwing money at him, meanwhile anyone else who does not pay him gets banned...

Septera can hardly get 250 ppl during peaktimes with Puniogaming streaming(600 view3ers) however DarkOT has 450 people online at 3 am? lol...

Meanwhile Tibijka~ w.e is about to have another "1000 players" on in a few days and I can tell you they will have a yellow banner and wont be banned xD

You want to help fix the dishonesty in the old school community need to fix Xinn's bullshit and the spoof servers.

 

[Ecstazya]

Someone acts cool here for getting the querymanager & loginserver work after weeks of trying...... @WibbenZ how could you possibly let this guy speak his mind whilist he is flaming atleast 10% of the users which are trying to create a successfull server cause he is jelly his wont make it.

 

[e.e]

@Ecstazya
Explain how I'm flaming anyone. Of course I'm not gonna be nice to someone that's being randomly rude, irrational and trying to insult me, if you were in fact human too you'd understand

@xKrazyx
Really, Medivia was made in about 1-2 hours of time? Interesting. I was told people never really landed on the moon also, I love these kind of "interesting" theories, tell me more about it please.

As far as Xinn and otservlist goes, I don't know the situation. I'll help anyone if they've got facts and seem to be fighting for a just cause (and if I feel like it; I don't have the responsibility to do shit for you or anyone else without making a deal with them first).
I think you should create your own thread to be honest about Xinn, because I don't know anything about it and I'm not taking on the responsibility of getting my thread deleted by telling you to post stuff here that might not be reasonable.
If you make your own thread about it, like I made this thread, I'll be sure to check yours out.
You can also join me on my otforum in the signature later on, I bought the domain just a couple of days ago, probably won't be anything there for like a week or so.

But here's a tip: You shouldn't try to be using other people, like myself or others, as a tool to fix issues for you. If you want to fix something, do it yourself. I didn't come into your thread and start complaining about you "not doing enough" because "you're not fixing my problem".
It's not my job to fix your problems. If you wanna talk about them with me, then hit me up on chat, lets talk about it, but don't expect anyone else to do something for you unless they're your parents.

@Antony Cordeiro
:*

 

[WibbenZ]

Someone acts cool here for getting the querymanager & loginserver work after weeks of trying...... @WibbenZ how could you possibly let this guy speak his mind whilist he is flaming atleast 10% of the users which are trying to create a successfull server cause he is jelly his wont make it.

Everyone is free to speak their mind aslong as they follow the forum rules.
And the reason why I told him to create a discussion thread is to avoid him and others going off topic in advertisement threads.

 

[ond]

I have a better idea, spend your time improving your own server to make the players come to you instead. Don't put your time and energy on threads like these. And if the server owners are breaking any board rules, just report them.

 

[e.e]

@ond
There's no board rules against lying.
So anyone can lie out of their ass and not get banned for it, at least as far as I know (feel free to point out with facts/evidence if I'm wrong).
And I spend my time at whatever I want to. Exposing liars is something I enjoy doing, and I think it's what the OT community needs; I fear that it will collapse if the trend keeps going on towards more liars and more bullshit, and I don't want to see that happen.
And I'm enjoying spending some time and positive energy on this thread.
Why do you spend your time and energy coming to a thread like this and tell me I shouldn't waste time yourself? To me THAT is what seems like a waste of time, especially if you don't argue with any points, but just say "don't waste your time"
Anyone can say that: Don't waste your time Steve Jobs Don't waste your time Gandhi
Not much of an idea, really, I think it's just called being a negative nancy.

PS: See ya'll next week (if I'm not banned by then), I've gotta run.

 

[ond]

@ond
There's no board rules against lying.
So anyone can lie out of their ass and not get banned for it, at least as far as I know (feel free to point out with facts/evidence if I'm wrong).
And I spend my time at whatever I want to. Exposing liars is something I enjoy doing, and I think it's what the OT community needs; I fear that it will collapse if the trend keeps going on towards more liars and more bullshit, and I don't want to see that happen.
And I'm enjoying spending some time and positive energy on this thread.
Why do you spend your time and energy coming to a thread like this and tell me I shouldn't waste time yourself? To me THAT is what seems like a waste of time, especially if you don't argue with any points, but just say "don't waste your time"
Anyone can say that: Don't waste your time Steve Jobs Don't waste your time Gandhi
Not much of an idea, really, I think it's just called being a negative nancy.

PS: See ya'll next week (if I'm not banned by then), I've gotta run.

But I don't run any server and I don't intend to. I don't think you should stop exposing people who are liars, but if you ask me you are making a too big deal out of this and so far it seems to only be bringing negative energy to this already dying community. With that said, I do not favor people lying, but in this case it just seems like he/she want to do whatever it takes to score some players.

All people are not honest, and they never will be, there for you should focus on yourself and your own server, because no matter from which angle you view this, time put on this thread could have gone to your own server and thus benefit you more, and I hate seeing energy being misplaced. I'm off.