On the Dedication of Players

[Flatlander]

As level 1 you actually face changes in gameplay that are not only numbers, you will access different spells, weapons and vocations. After something like level 50-80, the only change is numbers. Higher health pools, higher healings, higher hits. Same pace, same shit. I don't actually understands your point and how it's related with what I said.



That point of level cap/power creep/fake achievements come when @Sir Knighter pointed out my idea of removing level cap in my server concept. And I pointed some of the problems the lack of a level cap give to Tibia.

So you think you can achieve everything there is to achieve in tibia at level 80?

Or are you saying that, IF you only gain hp/mana/cap/damage. Then it doesn't really count as something new. Even if it does give you access to completely new content, areas, quests, monsters you can hunt, things you can achieve, different styles of gameplay, etc?

Because, whichever one you are saying, you are wrong.

 

[Demon Overlord]

I love this! I feel the same way about a lot of stuff. I really miss the original Dzot when you had characters like the Hardcore, that had all the perks, but reset to level 1 if you died. Fast levels, strong monsters. Not just the silly "RL MAP! LOW RATE EXP STAGES" that is all people post on here now. Long gone is the hayday of Tibia. Unfortunately the best of the servers either shut down or become watered down. However Necronia might be a good hope for a REAL Tibia RPG made from scratch. Sadly it is extremely slow.

 

[ATT3]

Let's imagine, I've just started tibia and got a hang of hunting and now my goal is to reach level 100, so I can do some cool quests.
What makes me go over the same circle over and over again(hunting), is that advancing level can give me great pleasure, although it's not my initial goal.
Levels are just side achievements, which keep me hooked on my initial goal. + ("X level for X thing" ex. equipment)

Eventually when I do reach my goal, I will need a new one, or I will get bored quickly and quit.
OK, my new goal is to get level 200 and use some new weapon.
And for that I am willing to work, although I am not ready to go around the same circle over and over again.
I will go to some other, new hunting place - and then I am willing to go around the new circle, over and over again. Until...
I get bored, so I will need a new hunting spot (new content?) or I will have to get a bot.
The bot can do all that boring stuff that I just did while, I can enjoy to fruits that leveling gives me ex. using that new weapon and such.
IMO this is one major reason why bots are so popular on tibia.
Many times, hunting is so monotonous and easy, that you don't really enjoy it at all. The only thing that might keep you doing it, is the initial goal.

 

[Flatlander]

Let's imagine, I've just started tibia and got a hang of hunting and now my goal is to reach level 100, so I can do some cool quests.
What makes me go over the same circle over and over again(hunting), is that advancing level can give me great pleasure, although it's not my initial goal.
Levels are just side achievements, which keep me hooked on my initial goal. + ("X level for X thing" ex. equipment)

Eventually when I do reach my goal, I will need a new one, or I will get bored quickly and quit.
OK, my new goal is to get level 200 and use some new weapon.
And for that I am willing to work, although I am not ready to go around the same circle over and over again.
I will go to some other, new hunting place - and then I am willing to go around the new circle, over and over again. Until...
I get bored, so I will need a new hunting spot (new content?) or I will have to get a bot.
The bot can do all that boring stuff that I just did while, I can enjoy to fruits that leveling gives me ex. using that new weapon and such.
IMO this is one major reason why bots are so popular on tibia.
Many times, hunting is so monotonous and easy, that you don't really enjoy it at all. The only thing that might keep you doing it, is the initial goal.

THIS I can agree with.

Yes, hunting on tibia is usually boring. The chance of something unexpected happening is very rare, and usually player-made. (Lured monsters, pkers, etc)

At first, bots did things like heal, Use Potions, target the next monster, etc. Because this was a robotic thing that every player was forced to do.

Then once people didn't have to heal, or use potions, or target creatures while hunting, all they did was walk around letting their bot do all that work. So it was EVEN MORE boring. So they developed a bot that did that too.

The solution isn't to make Anti-Bot clients. It would be to make Anti-Bot mechanics.

Make spells that have longer cooldowns, and are stronger so you don't have to spam them.
Make potions heavier, or more expensive so you cannot carry that many, and make them heal over time, so they can heal more. (That way you only use one potion every few minutes when you need one, rather than every 10 seconds)
Make monsters that have better AI, and more interesting abilities, so you have to use strategy and tactics to be more effective.

The above 3 changes would make bots A LOT less attractive, because it would take away the reasons people bot, rather than the ability to bot.

 

[Peonso]

So you think you can achieve everything there is to achieve in tibia at level 80?

Or are you saying that, IF you only gain hp/mana/cap/damage. Then it doesn't really count as something new. Even if it does give you access to completely new content, areas, quests, monsters you can hunt, things you can achieve, different styles of gameplay, etc?

Because, whichever one you are saying, you are wrong.

My point is that everything a character of level 300 do a 80 could do if you boost his numbers, because numbers is the only difference. Without a level cap you have this problems:

• Classes feel/do the same (the only difference is melee/ranged)
• You can't balance classes
• Players overlevel content and everything is trivial
• A lot of map content is ignored since players has nothing to do there after achieving a higher level
• PvP is impossible to balance since players gap of level is absurd
• Casual and no_lifers can't play the game together cooperativily
• You can't implement new content for all your player base

Yes, hunting on tibia is usually boring. The chance of something unexpected happening is very rare, and usually player-made. (Lured monsters, pkers, etc)

Limitless leveling fault, people will always overlevel content as it gives more exp and profit.

Make spells that have longer cooldowns, and are stronger so you don't have to spam them.
Make potions heavier, or more expensive so you cannot carry that many, and make them heal over time, so they can heal more. (That way you only use one potion every few minutes when you need one, rather than every 10 seconds)
Make monsters that have better AI, and more interesting abilities, so you have to use strategy and tactics to be more effective.

The above 3 changes would make bots A LOT less attractive, because it would take away the reasons people bot, rather than the ability to bot.

You can't balance your first 2 ideas without a level cap.

 

[Deleted member 49793]

Personally ive always found the funnest part of tibia and any OT is making scripts for bots, finding the best exp places with that bot, making a flawless script for it, super optimal, and then once im 20 levels higher, and hunting a new zone, doing that all over again

 

[whitevo]

My point is that everything a character of level 300 do a 80 could do if you boost his numbers, because numbers is the only difference. Without a level cap you have this problems:

• Classes feel/do the same (the only difference is melee/ranged)
• You can't balance classes
• Players overlevel content and everything is trivial
• A lot of map content is ignored since players has nothing to do there after achieving a higher level
• PvP is impossible to balance since players gap of level is absurd
• Casual and no_lifers can't play the game together cooperativily
• You can't implement new content for all your player base

Limitless leveling fault, people will always overlevel content as it gives more exp and profit.


You can't balance your first 2 ideas without a level cap.

Badly made gameplay. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[owned]

My point is that everything a character of level 300 do a 80 could do if you boost his numbers, because numbers is the only difference. Without a level cap you have this problems:

• Classes feel/do the same (the only difference is melee/ranged)
• You can't balance classes
• Players overlevel content and everything is trivial
• A lot of map content is ignored since players has nothing to do there after achieving a higher level
• PvP is impossible to balance since players gap of level is absurd
• Casual and no_lifers can't play the game together cooperativily
• You can't implement new content for all your player base

Limitless leveling fault, people will always overlevel content as it gives more exp and profit.


You can't balance your first 2 ideas without a level cap.

I don't agree with anything you're saying.

• What difference in class feel would there be if there was a level cap?
• Can't balance classes? That's because you're not willing to put in the time nor effort to balance the classes.
• If players can overlevel content then that just means there wasn't enough content to begin with. That's like making rl tibia level cap of 100 and only having cyclops.
• Map content is only ignored when the content has nothing to offer. aka not enough content or enough well thought out content.
• Pvp balance impossible? Again too lazy and not willing to put the time and effort into balancing it.
• If someone spends 20 hours a day playing a game and someone else spends 4 hours a day playing and the person that spends 4 hours is just as good, that's a good enough reason to never play that mmorpg again.
• And again comes down to being too lazy and unwilling.

I absolutely can't stand level caps? Why? Because what do you do when you finally reach your level cap? Go do the same thing over and over and over again? Sounds real exciting. Love the idea.

 

[Deleted member 49793]

I don't agree with anything you're saying.

• What difference in class feel would there be if there was a level cap?
• Can't balance classes? That's because you're not willing to put in the time nor effort to balance the classes.
• If players can overlevel content then that just means there wasn't enough content to begin with. That's like making rl tibia level cap of 100 and only having cyclops.
• Map content is only ignored when the content has nothing to offer. aka not enough content or enough well thought out content.
• Pvp balance impossible? Again too lazy and not willing to put the time and effort into balancing it.
• If someone spends 20 hours a day playing a game and someone else spends 4 hours a day playing and the person that spends 4 hours is just as good, that's a good enough reason to never play that mmorpg again.
• And again comes down to being too lazy and unwilling.

I absolutely can't stand level caps? Why? Because what do you do when you finally reach your level cap? Go do the same thing over and over and over again? Sounds real exciting. Love the idea.

nailed it

 

[ATT3]

Most of the time, levels are great, creates competition and you can show others your experience easily.
Tibia though, is very "level based" game, specially the newer clients, not that much skill is needed.
A guy who has played tibia for 10 years and has 50 level character, won't have a chance against the guy who had started playing tibia 2 months ago, and has level 100 character.

It would be interesting to see a server that is more based on individuals skills, rather than levels.
Create game mechanisms which require more skill, almost as @Flatlander said;
Create more intelligent monsters, specially bosses where you will even have to build a strategy in order to succeed. Here, having experience would be very important.

Just make players more equal against each other. So, 400 level can't 1-hit 100 level.
But also, if somebody has spent 5 years, getting that 400 level character, it's understandable that he will get some kind of advantage, other than his gaming experience.

 

[Peonso]

What difference in class feel would there be if there was a level cap?
Can't balance classes? That's because you're not willing to put in the time nor effort to balance the classes.

That's not about me putting effort or not, you claiming it's a matter of effort without doing or suggesting nothing make your point empty. I was discussing Tibia, and it's not and never was balanced classwise, never saw a oldschool server (what I'm most familiar with) achieve a balance between classes. Nowadays it's kind of balanced, but the classes do nearby the same shit, area spells and strong single target.

If players can overlevel content then that just means there wasn't enough content to begin with. That's like making rl tibia level cap of 100 and only having cyclops.

That's not a matter of content being enough or not. It's about once you can kill dragons, rotworms being more efficient for both exp and profit.

Map content is only ignored when the content has nothing to offer. aka not enough content or enough well thought out content.

How the hell an area can be relevant for players of level 20 and of level 600 at the same time?

Pvp balance impossible? Again too lazy and not willing to put the time and effort into balancing it.

You can't have players from level 50 and 300 PvPing unless you make the level itself irrelevant for combat.

If someone spends 20 hours a day playing a game and someone else spends 4 hours a day playing and the person that spends 4 hours is just as good, that's a good enough reason to never play that mmorpg again.

It's your personal taste. You would be a bad developer nowadays, if no-lifers can grab a massive advantage in a game by grinding your game is a no-no for casuals, and you lost the majority of players available.

And again comes down to being too lazy and unwilling.

It's impossible to develop a content that will be good for both players of level 20 and 600, you are forced to make a content for you player base of level 20 and for your players of higher levels, and they are different.

I absolutely can't stand level caps? Why? Because what do you do when you finally reach your level cap? Go do the same thing over and over and over again? Sounds real exciting. Love the idea.

You are tricked by the system, they give you numbers and you like the false sense of change they give.

 

[owned]

That's not about me putting effort or not, you claiming it's a matter of effort without doing or suggesting nothing make your point empty. I was discussing Tibia, and it's not and never was balanced classwise, never saw a oldschool server (what I'm most familiar with) achieve a balance between classes. Nowadays it's kind of balanced, but the classes do nearby the same shit, area spells and strong single target.

That's not a matter of content being enough or not. It's about once you can kill dragons, rotworms being more efficient for both exp and profit.
How the hell an area can be relevant for players of level 20 and of level 600 at the same time?
You can't have players from level 50 and 300 PvPing unless you make the level itself irrelevant for combat.It's your personal taste. You would be a bad developer nowadays, if no-lifers can grab a massive advantage in a game by grinding your game is a no-no for casuals, and you lost the majority of players available.It's impossible to develop a content that will be good for both players of level 20 and 600, you are forced to make a content for you player base of level 20 and for your players of higher levels, and they are different.
You are tricked by the system, they give you numbers and you like the false sense of change they give.

Let me ask you one thing, because I don't feel like spending more time combating how unintelligent your statements are. What's the difference with a level cap? More of a rhetorical question actually since i'll give you the answer. The difference between a game without a level cap and with a cap is that a game with level cap, every level means more. Those same exact numbers exist, and yea they might be less, but guess what? They mean more.

And you want to talk about false sense of achievement? Most games these days make a level cap, then have a different "level" classification for after you reach the cap for you to still increase these numbers that you so seem to obsess about bringing to peoples attention.

So you tell me what's a bigger false sense of achievement than a player reaching the "cap" then still being able to somehow progress.

You're trying to sell a "product" to a community that shares none of the same perspective of gameplay as you. It's like trying to sell a vegan meat. We don't want what you're offering.

 

[Deleted member 49793]

Let me ask you one thing, because I don't feel like spending more time combating how unintelligent your statements are. What's the difference with a level cap? More of a rhetorical question actually since i'll give you the answer. The difference between a game without a level cap and with a cap is that a game with level cap, every level means more. Those same exact numbers exist, and yea they might be less, but guess what? They mean more.

And you want to talk about false sense of achievement? Most games these days make a level cap, then have a different "level" classification for after you reach the cap for you to still increase these numbers that you so seem to obsess about bringing to peoples attention.

So you tell me what's a bigger false sense of achievement than a player reaching the "cap" then still being able to somehow progress.

You're trying to sell a "product" to a community that shares none of the same perspective of gameplay as you. It's like trying to sell a vegan meat. We don't want what you're offering.

Nailed it

 

[owned]

Nailed it

I just love it because somehow I was the one that was "tricked" by this system. It's quite incredible how blind some people can be to the bigger picture hanging on the wall.

 

[Tony Wendice]

>your face when your thread gets derailed

 

[Peonso]

Let me ask you one thing, because I don't feel like spending more time combating how unintelligent your statements are. What's the difference with a level cap? More of a rhetorical question actually since i'll give you the answer. The difference between a game without a level cap and with a cap is that a game with level cap, every level means more. Those same exact numbers exist, and yea they might be less, but guess what? They mean more.

You are right when you say you are, I'm wrong when you say I'm, things are what you say they are. It's not about me or you being right or wrong, is how you wanna paint you as the right one by not giving embasament for your bad points and dodging my good arguments.

I already made a post about how I see the limitless leveling, as it is in Tibia, affect negatively the gameplay. It's the first post you answered in this thread. I anwser you, you then give no embasament for your bad points, dodge my arguments, present the question again, give you yourself a bad anwser that is no truth at all, so you can contest it and paint yourself as right. It's just lame.

And you want to talk about false sense of achievement? Most games these days make a level cap, then have a different "level" classification for after you reach the cap for you to still increase these numbers that you so seem to obsess about bringing to peoples attention.

So you tell me what's a bigger false sense of achievement than a player reaching the "cap" then still being able to somehow progress.

You are totally right, they lock you with some other shit. I never said it was otherwise though. My point is that locking you to repeat the gameplay by not limiting the leveling, as Tibia do, bring balance issues, the ones I listed.

You're trying to sell a "product" to a community that shares none of the same perspective of gameplay as you. It's like trying to sell a vegan meat. We don't want what you're offering.

I'm pretty sure there is a niche of players that won't bother the level cap issue. You are talking like every player here thinks the same and you are the spokesperson of this community. Also the gameplay don't change at all, 2d game, 12x15 grid, you run the map spamming hotkeys/runes killing shit, as I stated the increasing in numbers don't change the game at all. If at lower levels health pools are X, heals are Y, hits are Z, and the just change in gameplay is that at higher levels health pools are 3X, heals are 3Y, hits are 3Z, there isn't a real change.

 

[Peonso]

>your face when your thread gets derailed

I kinda think it's THE ISSUE actually. It doesn't matter what rates you set, otservers are for nolifers, they have a huge advantage since there is no limit for how high you numbers can go and how much resources (runes) you can stock. There is no space for nostalgic casuals as you and me, you need to dedicate to much time to be part of a big team of nolifers, else you are rulled out of the server. Look at this:

If someone spends 20 hours a day playing a game and someone else spends 4 hours a day playing and the person that spends 4 hours is just as good, that's a good enough reason to never play that mmorpg again.

You have a life @Tony Wendice? Your fate is to be nolifer meet, that's what Tibia is meant to be.

 

[whitevo]

If someone spends 20 hours a day playing a game and someone else spends 4 hours a day playing and the person that spends 4 hours is just as good, that's a good enough reason to never play that mmorpg again.

well I never stopped playing WoW because I got cap level slower than others.

Im creating server where skilled players simply can complete PVE content faster.
Secondary factor to game is item combination and if you really want to be most awesome build user in the block, but have no-time to play to get items you could also buy items from other players who doesn't mind selling their earned items.

These are 2 main reasons how (player A) spends less time on game and is stronger from (player B) who used up more time on game.

Even thought it sounds like Pay2Win, its not, because someone has to play and both ends are players.

Besides what ever the case, if the player who played X hours more than his friend and is sad because friend has still killed better bosses, completed more quests, etc. Well this simply means his friend is more luckier or simply has better tactics to play the game.

 

[owned]

You are right when you say you are, I'm wrong when you say I'm, things are what you say they are. It's not about me or you being right or wrong, is how you wanna paint you as the right one by not giving embasament for your bad points and dodging my good arguments.

I already made a post about how I see the limitless leveling, as it is in Tibia, affect negatively the gameplay. It's the first post you answered in this thread. I anwser you, you then give no embasament for your bad points, dodge my arguments, present the question again, give you yourself a bad anwser that is no truth at all, so you can contest it and paint yourself as right. It's just lame.


You are totally right, they lock you with some other shit. I never said it was otherwise though. My point is that locking you to repeat the gameplay by not limiting the leveling, as Tibia do, bring balance issues, the ones I listed.


I'm pretty sure there is a niche of players that won't bother the level cap issue. You are talking like every player here thinks the same and you are the spokesperson of this community. Also the gameplay don't change at all, 2d game, 12x15 grid, you run the map spamming hotkeys/runes killing shit, as I stated the increasing in numbers don't change the game at all. If at lower levels health pools are X, heals are Y, hits are Z, and the just change in gameplay is that at higher levels health pools are 3X, heals are 3Y, hits are 3Z, there isn't a real change.[/QUOTE

Based on the fact that it took you all night to build up what to say in response to me, I won't even continue this conversation. Yea I'm aware you checked my post after I posted it and yea I'm aware that you continuously checked the thread for the next hour afterwards.

If it takes you 12 hours to come up with something to say, you already show everyone what was already seen.

 

[J.Dre]