On the Dedication of Players

[Tony Wendice]

Most of us learned of Tibia when we were younger. Years have passed and we now find ourselves, as adults, still yearning for the thrilling game we played as children. However, most of us have lives, wives, jobs, and other hobbies of an adult nature, leaving us with little to no time to spend playing Tibia. For that reason, most of the 7.1-7.4 lowrate servers are instant turn offs for the majority of us.

So, this is a message from one timeless individual to all the server owners out there. If you want me as a dedicated player on your server, please make your server medium-high rate. We all have learned not to become too attached to servers because of their inevitable shutdown. Therefore, when you host a bug-free high-rate server and occasionally reset it, I'm sure you will find the majority of the community spending what little precious time they have there.

If your target audience is 15-18 jobless high school students, then please, keep doing what you are doing. I'm sure the students will help by donating to your server. Because everyone gets paid to attend high school nowadays, amirite?

 

[Deleted member 49793]

Most of us learned of Tibia when we were younger. Years have passed and we now find ourselves, as adults, still yearning for the thrilling game we played as children. However, most of us have lives, wives, jobs, and other hobbies of an adult nature, leaving us with little to no time to spend playing Tibia. For that reason, most of the 7.1-7.4 lowrate servers are instant turn offs for the majority of us.

So, this is a message from one timeless individual to all the server owners out there. If you want me as a dedicated player on your server, please make your server medium-high rate. We all have learned not to become too attached to servers because of their inevitable shutdown. Therefore, when you host a bug-free high-rate server and occasionally reset it, I'm sure you will find the majority of the community spending what little precious time they have there.

If your target audience is 15-18 jobless high school students, then please, keep doing what you are doing. I'm sure the students will help by donating to your server. Because everyone gets paid to attend high school nowadays, amirite?

15-18 year old highschool kids sometimes have wealthy parents, who will donate insane amounts of NOT their own money. Key factor. Way more likely to spend it. Secondly, no one plays a lowrate server? Tibianic? Classicus (Semi low) Im confused.

 

[Tony Wendice]

And how many of those kids have wealthy parents? Isn't it naive to assume that all of them come from wealthy families?

On another note, how long have you been around the tibianic scene?

At the moment the war is over so it's very dead and boring. Even when there is a war going on, all the big teams have runefarms and undetectable bots anyways. There isn't much skill to be seen when playing against a bunch of polish botters. You can't even random pk on that server since the community is so small you end up killing some war player's pk char and become hunted.

Also, have you seen all the complaints about classicus?

It seems ryan is playing a paladin on that server.. Damage & movement speed formulas for mages are nerfed while paladins are severely buffed. Would you, Sir Knighter, waste your time on such a bullshit server? Or are you a casual 7.4 player?

 

[Deleted member 49793]

You make good points.

 

[whitevo]

Most of us learned of Tibia when we were younger. Years have passed and we now find ourselves, as adults, still yearning for the thrilling game we played as children. However, most of us have lives, wives, jobs, and other hobbies of an adult nature, leaving us with little to no time to spend playing Tibia. For that reason, most of the 7.1-7.4 lowrate servers are instant turn offs for the majority of us.

So, this is a message from one timeless individual to all the server owners out there. If you want me as a dedicated player on your server, please make your server medium-high rate. We all have learned not to become too attached to servers because of their inevitable shutdown. Therefore, when you host a bug-free high-rate server and occasionally reset it, I'm sure you will find the majority of the community spending what little precious time they have there.

If your target audience is 15-18 jobless high school students, then please, keep doing what you are doing. I'm sure the students will help by donating to your server. Because everyone gets paid to attend high school nowadays, amirite?

Your word has been heard.

 

[Emky]

just a question, how would the staged exp rates look like for mid-high? thinking about making one for the 7.1 protocol with a custom map

 

[Peonso]

@Tony Wendice
What you spoke was what I had in mind when I came up with the concept for a server.

Forum Thread

I'm creating a thread to try to motivate myself to work in a server concept I developed some months ago. And those are the main characteristics I will focus on:

• Gameplay from 7.4-7.72 era
• Maximum level (around 100-120)
• High exp rate (around 20-30x)
• RPG content: lore, quests, puzzles, dungeons

My point is to create a map where the focus is exploring and questing, while having it balanced since all my player base will be around same level. The idea behind all this is to adress some common problems:

1. Players at oldschool server achieve level soo high that the content become trivial, there are no monsters for them, no quests directed to them, even damage formulas aren't developed taking soo high levels in consideration.
2. Grinding rotworms is 10 year old retarded mechanic. People can't be arsed doing that shit for hours and hours, even more in servers they know won't last forever. So they just avoid it or bot.
3. Servers die. I will take in consideration the server won't last forever, and the game will be developed with this in mind. The idea is to develop some kind of main quest that can be solved, so you can actually beat the game and move on with your life.
4. A lot of map content is ignored since players has nothing to do there after achieving a higher level. Nearby the entirety of the map will be aimed to players at maximum level.

 

[Deleted member 49793]

@Tony Wendice
What you spoke was what I had in mind when I came up with the concept for a server.

Forum Thread

You cant level capp tibia, players would hate it, its the best part of tibia

 

[Flatlander]

When I first started playing tibia, I didn't care about being the highest level, or part of any war, etc. I was playing it as a virtual world almost.

You get to main, meet people, buy a house, hang out, go on hunts etc. It was just something to do.
Then I was part of my first war, and it was fun, and everyone noticed how fun it was.

So now that everyone knows that war is fun, that is all everyone does. They took the MOST FUN parts of tibia, and simply focused on that, and now people ignore the entire rest of the game.

CIP saw this, made it easier to make money, made blessings cheaper, made pvp blessings, made war mode, and continiously made it easier and easier to war 24/7 without stopping.

The people who play tibia have changed. They are no longer the people that used to play, we're all war-hungry mongrels.

So any server that is created, needs to be ready to give the war-hungry mongrels what they want. Which is balanced and fun pvp on a large scale that allows wars.

Or they have to provide something else that is just as fun as tibia wars, so that it is a replacement. (Such as the pokemon servers)

 

[Peonso]

You cant level capp tibia, players would hate it, its the best part of tibia

That's the part I actually always hated. It just means the content is impossible to balance. Players grind trivial content to get "stronger", that is translated by some increased digits in his damage, the gameplay stays the same forever.

If you cut that part about players fooling themselves they get stronger (when the gameplay doesn't change at all, like level 80+ at oldschool), you have a game that everyone can enjoy together, either pvp or cooperative. Instead of have blocks of players locked in different blocks of PvE content, and blocks of players really stronger against others in PvP, that measured by their compromise/freetime/bot to grinding.

Players wouldn't be able overlevel content also, and make everything trivial, as is Tibia nowadays.

 

[Flatlander]

That's the part I actually always hated. It just means the content is impossible to balance. Players grind trivial content to get "stronger", that is translated by some increased digits in his damage, the gameplay stays the same forever.

If you cut that part about players fooling themselves they get stronger (when the gameplay doesn't change at all, like level 80+ at oldschool), you have a game that everyone can enjoy together, either pvp or cooperative. Instead of have blocks of players locked in different blocks of PvE content, and blocks of players really stronger against others in PvP, that measured by their compromise/freetime/bot to grinding.

Players wouldn't eb able overlevel content also, and make everything trivial, as is Tibia nowadays.

Just make it so levels don't give more power? Or give it diminishing returns.

For example, maybe every level up to level 100 gives +10 health per level.
After level 100 start giving less and less until you are gaining 1 hp per level.

 

[Tony Wendice]

just a question, how would the staged exp rates look like for mid-high? thinking about making one for the 7.1 protocol with a custom map

Are you an adult? Assuming you work 8 hours a day, how much free time do you have to spend playing tibia? The answer to that question should help you figure out the stages for a server. As long as we dont have to spend days on days grinding the same area to barely gain 1 level, the rates should be fine. So, going from level 1-30 should not take more than 2-3 hours..

Have you ever played an explicit war server? For example, Lording's server, "Old War," is boring because many of the elements of the game are removed. Everyone spawns at lvl 80 with 50 ML, therefore nobody really has to gfb tombs or sd dragon lords. The PvE elements are gone. There is no feeling of consequence for one's death either because your opponent will always respawn at lvl 80 with the same ML and a fresh war backpack, filled to the brim with SDs, UHs, and manafluids to your heart's desire. So I guess the ideal server in my mind would be one targeted at war players with a minimal RPG backdrop. That way when you defeat your opponent, he doesn't always respawn at lvl 80 with 50 ML. He will suffer experience loss, magic level loss, and item loss, forcing him to call it a day and return on another day where he can recuperate his losses.

Just as Flatlander mentions, we "are no longer the people that used to play, we're all war-hungry mongrels." There is nothing more thrilling than landing your SD, waiting for your opponent to miss a UH, then finishing them off with an ultimate explosion. So it is definitely a must to adjust a server's frag limits accordingly as only a minority play this old game for the PvE aspect.

What you spoke was what I had in mind when I came up with the concept for a server.

Your server sounds promising. How long will it take to finish? Also is it going to be a custom map or the same real map?

And have you decided on how to advertise it? There are many great servers that have been released but failed due to a lack of players.

 

[Peonso]

Just make it so levels don't give more power? Or give it diminishing returns.

For example, maybe every level up to level 100 gives +10 health per level.
After level 100 start giving less and less until you are gaining 1 hp per level.

If the levels means nothing what's the point?

We know why developers make games that way. The sense of achievement keep players playing/grinding like brainless zombies, that's why every new successful game have tons of meaningless achievements for players to conquer. What I can't understand is how players fail to see they are falling into that trap.

I mean, look at this post.

You cant level capp tibia, players would hate it, its the best part of tibia

The best part of Tibia for this guy is the fake sense of achievement. It's not having access to new game mechanics, or significatively improving your character with new ways to face the content. Nor facing more complexes monsters and dungeons. It's just getting higher numbers in his screen.

You don't have to develop meaningful content to lock people playing games nowadays, you need ONE interesting mechanic, then you give them false sense of achievement by increasing numbers through repeated gameplay and fake badges for achievements.

Your server sounds promising. How long will it take to finish? Also is it going to be a custom map or the same real map?

And have you decided on how to advertise it? There are many great servers that have been released but failed due to a lack of players.

No idea how long it will take, I'm on hold on it now, need to dedicate more time to -find good job/family/RL shit-. It will be a custom map and I try to think in everything to have it interesting and playable, but no plans at all for the "merchandising part", since I'm really early on development.

 

[Flatlander]

If the levels means nothing what's the point?

We know why developers make games that way. The sense of achievement keep players playing/grinding like brainless zombies, that's why every new successful game have tons of meaningless achievements for players to conquer. What I can't understand is how players fail to see they are falling into that trap.

I mean, look at this post.


The best part of Tibia for this guy is the fake sense of achievement. It's not having access to new game mechanics, or significatively improving your character with new ways to face the content. Nor facing more complexes monsters and dungeons. It's just getting higher numbers in his screen.

You don't have to develop meaningful content to lock people playing games nowadays, you need ONE interesting mechanic, then you give them false sense of achievement by increasing numbers through repeated gameplay and fake badges for achievements.



No idea how long it will take, I'm on hold on it now, need to dedicate more time to -find good job/family/RL shit-. It will be a custom map and I try to think in everything to have it interesting and playable, but no plans at all for the "merchandising part", since I'm really early on development.

It isn't a fake sense of achievement, if it is an achievement. Even you said it creates power creep. Meaning they have achieved more power.

Most of the "Badges" or "Trophies" are given for going outside of normal gameplay. Such as "Defeat the main boss using only the power of your left toe.", or "Complete this dungeon by only turning left - No Right Turns", Etc.

It adds more gameplay without actually adding more gameplay.

Game Developers have noticed that it takes longer to make content, than to play it. So they create content that is re-playable in many different ways.

Leveling does this. Normally in a game, you could even skip past monsters and run strait to the end. Such as Wolfenstien 3D. You could run strait to the elevator on every level, unless you had to kill a boss for the key.

Now there is no "end" to levels, and you can skip whatever you want, but the goal is no longer "get to the end" the goal is "get higher level" which allows players to play in whatever way they want, and still progress through the game.

 

[Peonso]

It isn't a fake sense of achievement, if it is an achievement. Even you said it creates power creep. Meaning they have achieved more power.

Most of the "Badges" or "Trophies" are given for going outside of normal gameplay. Such as "Defeat the main boss using only the power of your left toe.", or "Complete this dungeon by only turning left - No Right Turns", Etc.

It adds more gameplay without actually adding more gameplay.

Game Developers have noticed that it takes longer to make content, than to play it. So they create content that is re-playable in many different ways.

Leveling does this. Normally in a game, you could even skip past monsters and run strait to the end. Such as Wolfenstien 3D. You could run strait to the elevator on every level, unless you had to kill a boss for the key.

Now there is no "end" to levels, and you can skip whatever you want, but the goal is no longer "get to the end" the goal is "get higher level" which allows players to play in whatever way they want, and still progress through the game.

Well, I will kinda repeat myself. https://otland.net/threads/on-the-dedication-of-players.233345/#post-2250108 If the power creep translates just in higher numbers then it's dumb. If the power creep translates also into balance problems it's even dumber.

I can't call reaching level 100 an achievement if there is no meaningful change in gameplay by reaching level 100 but the increased numbers. The numbers are just a trick, to cover the truth that what you achieved is the same thing you already got.

The whole "badges", "trophies", "achievements" pages game nowadays have, I just pointed as an exemple of how those systems of fake sense of achievement by griding retard shit is massively being implemented to keep players "playing" games. They are "stickers albums" of retarded shit, and people keep playing not to actually play the game or because they find it entertaining, but to complete theirs "stickers album of achievement". We, humans, get addicted by this sense of reward those "achievements" give. You don't play because of the fun, but for the "sticker". And the "sticker" is just a ressemblance of an actual achievement, you just seek it for the sake of completing the "album", no one will keep rolling dices to get 3 6's in a roll, or defeat the main boss using only the power of your left toe, if it's not fake rewarded, and for the sake of this fake reward. Charles Duhigg's The Power of Habit book, is a good read, and chapter describes how the humankind is being abused by big coorporations in kind of the same way.

The way you describe it is like you actually see it as I see, but you don't think it's lame. Please enlight me, in my head the only way of not thinking it's lame is by being tricked by the system.

 

[Deleted member 49793]

This is an interesting debate

 

[Flatlander]

Well, I will kinda repeat myself. https://otland.net/threads/on-the-dedication-of-players.233345/#post-2250108 If the power creep translates just in higher numbers then it's dumb. If the power creep translates also into balance problems it's even dumber.

I can't call reaching level 100 an achievement if there is no meaningful change in gameplay by reaching level 100 but the increased numbers. The numbers are just a trick, to cover the truth that what you achieved is the same thing you already got.

The whole "badges", "trophies", "achievements" pages game nowadays have, I just pointed as an exemple of how those systems of fake sense of achievement by griding retard shit is massively being implemented to keep players "playing" games. They are "stickers albums" of retarded shit, and people keep playing not to actually play the game or because they find it entertaining, but to complete theirs "stickers album of achievement". We, humans, get addicted by this sense of reward those "achievements" give. You don't play because of the fun, but for the "sticker". And the "sticker" is just a ressemblance of an actual achievement, you just seek it for the sake of completing the "album", no one will keep rolling dices to get 3 6's in a roll, or defeat the main boss using only the power of your left toe, if it's not fake rewarded, and for the sake of this fake reward. Charles Duhigg's The Power of Habit book, is a good read, and chapter describes how the humankind is being abused by big coorporations in kind of the same way.

The way you describe it is like you actually see it as I see, but you don't think it's lame. Please enlight me, in my head the only way of not thinking it's lame is by being tricked by the system.

The higher level you are on tibia, the more areas you can survive in, and new hunting opportunities arise.

I would agree with you if on RL tibia you logged in, there was a rat cave, and NOTHING else.

I'd think "Why level, I can kill rats at level 1".

But no, that isn't it. You kill rats, then spiders, trolls, orcs, minotaurs, cyclops, mummies, dragons, and keep gaining access to harder and harder monsters.

There are MANY places a level 100 doesn't even belong, and it is basically suicide for a level 100 to go to those areas. Tibia is a virtual world, you don't HAVE to level, there is no winning, you just play the damn game. And THAT is why there is no level cap.

Tibia doesn't have Raids and "end game" content, because there is no "end game". Its a virtual world, not a traditional MMORPG.

 

[Deleted member 49793]

Fun part of being high level is not dieing to 8 dragons then using Exori.

 

[Flatlander]

Fun part of being high level is not dieing to 8 dragons then using Exori.

Exactly, the WAY you play the game changes with each level.

The reason I take such offense to saying the way tibia does it is wrong, is because I believe ALL the other MMOs with Level-Caps do it wrong.

They make leveling boring, and end up just allowing you to skip all the levels and create a max-level character because they KNOW it is boring.
Strait to max level, then lets go do Raids. Then someone may ask "What is a raid?" "Oh a raid is where 60 people fight 1 hard monster for 4-16 hours to get a few items"

So you raid to get better items, you get better items to do more raids. It's this infinite loop of boring bullshit and you don't go anywhere.
So then they make Harder Raids, where you need the previous Raid's Items to do. So you do the Tier 1 Raids to get Tier 1 Raid Gear so you can do Tier 2 Raids, etc.

Incredible stupidity to me. Some find it fun, I don't.

 

[Peonso]

The higher level you are on tibia, the more areas you can survive in, and new hunting opportunities arise.

I would agree with you if on RL tibia you logged in, there was a rat cave, and NOTHING else.

I'd think "Why level, I can kill rats at level 1".

But no, that isn't it. You kill rats, then spiders, trolls, orcs, minotaurs, cyclops, mummies, dragons, and keep gaining access to harder and harder monsters.

There are MANY places a level 100 doesn't even belong, and it is basically suicide for a level 100 to go to those areas. Tibia is a virtual world, you don't HAVE to level, there is no winning, you just play the damn game. And THAT is why there is no level cap.

As level 1 you actually face changes in gameplay that are not only numbers, you will access different spells, weapons and vocations. After something like level 50-80, the only change is numbers. Higher health pools, higher healings, higher hits. Same pace, same shit. I don't actually understands your point and how it's related with what I said.

Tibia doesn't have Raids and "end game" content, because there is no "end game". Its a virtual world, not a traditional MMORPG.

That point of level cap/power creep/fake achievements come when @Sir Knighter pointed out my idea of removing level cap in my server concept. And I pointed some of the problems the lack of a level cap give to Tibia.