On the Dedication of Players

[Demon Overlord]

Based on the fact that it took you all night to build up what to say in response to me, I won't even continue this conversation. Yea I'm aware you checked my post after I posted it and yea I'm aware that you continuously checked the thread for the next hour afterwards.

If it takes you 12 hours to come up with something to say, you already show everyone what was already seen.

"Yeah man, You took time to consider a response that was mature and well thought out instead of instantly posting some bullshit, like I post, you must be inadequate to have a discussion on the community."

Get over yourself kiddo.

 

[Tony Wendice]

Your fate is to be nolifer meet

Who cares what some kike named Brent Denny says.. Make your server as you intend and we shall all experiment with it and judge it ourselves. His opinion is as insignificant as mine!

The question is are you motivated enough to develop the server when it's in such a early stage? Will it pay off for you in the end? Or will it be one of the great lost projects?

Only time will tell, but consider me a guaranteed player on your soon-to-be server, if and when it is released!

 

[whitevo]

Based on the fact that it took you all night to build up what to say in response to me, I won't even continue this conversation. Yea I'm aware you checked my post after I posted it and yea I'm aware that you continuously checked the thread for the next hour afterwards.

If it takes you 12 hours to come up with something to say, you already show everyone what was already seen.

the only reason I'm still reading this thread is because of @Peonso good answers.

 

[owned]

the only reason I'm still reading this thread is because of @Peonso good answers.

To say any of his answers were good is humorous. Almost as humorous as him running into a wall as a result of every comment made towards him. And the fact he had zero valid arguments is great.

 

[whitevo]

To say any of his answers were good is humorous. Almost as humorous as him running into a wall as a result of every comment made towards him. And the fact he had zero valid arguments is great.

hmm?
Good answer doesn't mean I agree with them. At least he gave his opinion and a reasoning why he thinks that.

 

[Peonso]

Based on the fact that it took you all night to build up what to say in response to me, I won't even continue this conversation. Yea I'm aware you checked my post after I posted it and yea I'm aware that you continuously checked the thread for the next hour afterwards.

If it takes you 12 hours to come up with something to say, you already show everyone what was already seen.

To say any of his answers were good is humorous. Almost as humorous as him running into a wall as a result of every comment made towards him. And the fact he had zero valid arguments is great.

Yeah, I was 12 hours straight typing that response, I don't know what is more lame, me taking all that time too answer you or you lurking my profile to see what I was doing or not doing. Great to know you will dodge again. I don't know why you wasting your time here giving excuses. You know the truth, things are right when you say they are and you don't share the reasons with anyone, I can't see the point.

 

[Demon Overlord]

Yeah, I was 12 hours straight typing that response, I don't know what is more lame, me taking all that time too answer you or you lurking my profile to see what I was doing or not doing. Great to know you will dodge again. I don't know why you wasting your time here giving excuses. You know the truth, things are right when you say they are and you don't share the reasons with anyone, I can't see the point.

I'm pretty sure he's just fucking with you cause he's bored. Everything he's said is garbage filled, argument inducing crap.

 

[Tony Wendice]

To say any of his answers were good is humorous.

go shit up somebody else's thread, kike

 

[Flatlander]

Here. I'll detail out how a leveling system usually works.
This is common sense so I'll hide it in a spoiler

Spoiler: How Leveling System Works (And why a level cap doesn't help)

When you level, you usually gain power. Which lets you hunt harder monsters and access new areas.
This is true on WoW, Age of Conan, Tera, Tibia, Runescape, Everquest, and even single player RPGs like Final Fantasy.

In PvP, if you are higher level, you have an advantage.
This is true on WoW, Age of Conan, Tera, Tibia, Runescape, Everquest, but not on single player RPGs because there is no pvp.

When you have a level-cap, you allow every player to have the same level. (It is the same as there NOT being a level-system)
For Example, make the level cap 1. So you log in, you are level 1, everyone else is level 1, you all have the same ability. You are all even. That is what a level cap does.

BUT funny thing, All games I know with a level-cap, switch to a different system of Power Creep after you gain Max Level. Called Equipment Grinding!!
Every game with a level-cap that I know of has Raid Monsters that give you insane equipment. If you do not have Raid Equipment you will be weaker than the other players. Exactly like being lower level.

Now to address your "All classes feel the same" problem.
You said BECAUSE of the level system, this causes all classes to feel the same, and have similar spells.

I'm sorry, but this is because of this being a 2D Tile-Based MMORPG that every class feels the same to you.

There are 2 ways to do damage in a 2D Tile-Based MMORPG that doesn't have particles.

1. Damage to Target. (This damage is done to a specific target)
2. Damage to Tile (This damage is done to a specific tile)

Those are your choices. You can do damage to MANY targets, or MANY tiles. But those are literally your only 2 options.

Now, you can create some interesting ways to do damage like:

1. Summon a creature and then IT does the damage instead of you.
2. Throw a trap on the ground, and when it is stepped on it will do the damage.

Basically instead of your player casting the spell, you create something else that does it for you.
Now if you look at every spell ever created by the OTLand community. They all just use a combination of the above features.

• Ray of Pain from OTChaos - Does Damage to Tiles in a Wave in front of the player.
• Soul Stealer from OTChaos - Does damage to Target if they are withen 20 sqm when quoting their name: Soul Stealer "Flatlander".
• Snipe Shot from Deathzot - Does damage to Tiles in front of the player in a slow-moving beam.
• Boom Box from Deathzot - Summons a monster that looks like a box. After 3 seconds the box does an area spell on itself and disapears.
• Dwarven Fire from Species - Creates Fire Field on the ground around the target. Does Tile Damage when cast, and Target Damage when stepped on.
• Any spell can be explained using Target Damage and Tile Damage. (Every spell in tibia is very similar, it takes imagination to make fun and interesting vocations, not a level cap)

 

[whitevo]

There are 2 ways to do damage in a 2D Tile-Based MMORPG that doesn't have particles.

1. Damage to Target. (This damage is done to a specific target)
2. Damage to Tile (This damage is done to a specific tile)

lel so true, my spellCreating system divides into 2 paths, spell directly to target or spell directly on position.
Never gave though why, but makes sense now xD

 

[Peonso]

BUT funny thing, All games I know with a level-cap, switch to a different system of Power Creep after you gain Max Level. Called Equipment Grinding!!
Every game with a level-cap that I know of has Raid Monsters that give you insane equipment. If you do not have Raid Equipment you will be weaker than the other players. Exactly like being lower level.

It's not limitless, and that makes all the difference. The cap still there. It's the exactly same things as extra levels, but measured differently. You can balance how powerfull a fully geared player will be compared to a recent level capped player, and in some way how much time a player will need to spend to achieve a fully geared character. All MMO's will try to keep you playing by trying to grind some shit, what we actually already pointed out, achievements, fake achievements, gear, cosmetics, and the list goes on. But which one give you the option to limitless grind power?

Now to address your "All classes feel the same" problem.
You said BECAUSE of the level system, this causes all classes to feel the same, and have similar spells.

I'm sorry, but this is because of this being a 2D Tile-Based MMORPG that every class feels the same to you.

There are 2 ways to do damage in a 2D Tile-Based MMORPG that doesn't have particles.

1. Damage to Target. (This damage is done to a specific target)
2. Damage to Tile (This damage is done to a specific tile)

Those are your choices. You can do damage to MANY targets, or MANY tiles. But those are literally your only 2 options.

Now, you can create some interesting ways to do damage like:

1. Summon a creature and then IT does the damage instead of you.
2. Throw a trap on the ground, and when it is stepped on it will do the damage.

Basically instead of your player casting the spell, you create something else that does it for you.
Now if you look at every spell ever created by the OTLand community. They all just use a combination of the above features.

• Ray of Pain from OTChaos - Does Damage to Tiles in a Wave in front of the player.
• Soul Stealer from OTChaos - Does damage to Target if they are withen 20 sqm when quoting their name: Soul Stealer "Flatlander".
• Snipe Shot from Deathzot - Does damage to Tiles in front of the player in a slow-moving beam.
• Boom Box from Deathzot - Summons a monster that looks like a box. After 3 seconds the box does an area spell on itself and disapears.
• Dwarven Fire from Species - Creates Fire Field on the ground around the target. Does Tile Damage when cast, and Target Damage when stepped on.
• Any spell can be explained using Target Damage and Tile Damage. (Every spell in tibia is very similar, it takes imagination to make fun and interesting vocations, not a level cap)

I agree with you in this points, those things are present and limit Tibia/OTServ design a lot by themselves. But I still do think limitless numbers constrict it even more. Some exemples:

#1 Damage over time in Tibia is irrelevant. And that won't change ever. Players overlevel the content to places where theirs instant damage is too relevant, since it's more efficient to exp, profit or both. Nowadays it's too fast-paced for damage over times mechanics, but oldschool was slow-paced and DoTs was still irrelevant by the reason I gave.

#2 Your damage formulas have to scale well for every level, hence you can't implement mechanics/formulas that aren't scalable. And more, classes have to have same power when facing content of different difficult. As if a class do damage by doing several fast small hits and other have spiked damage by cooldowns, the one that deliver spiked damage will have an absurd advantage when farm the content while overleveld, they both drop the same damage over time, but spiked damage dude can one shot shit, hence he can starting moving faster (while cooldowns come back) and take less damage by simple fighting faster. Solution? Standardization of classes.

#3 Maybe not a problem only by the game having no level cap but also by being too fast-paced (which is forced by not having a level cap, because of overlevel, efficiency and bla bla bla). But you have no space for silences/slows/stuns/knockbacks and those kind of things, that could be used differentiate classes. You just drop your damage and collect loot, if any of this mechanics are present they would be abusable/overpowered by the difference of character power and content difficulty. Look at Paralyze, it's soo retarded that the manacost is prohibitive and you can't use it at all in PvE, it's impossible to balance with players varying so hard in level/damage/etc (even movespeed ).

It's a matter of the content the player will play to grab exp or profit is where he can kill monsters fast. If you add gimmiks to differentiate classes, that aren't relevant to kill monsters fast, they will search content where they can ignore them and just kill things fast. You can't create other differences also (damage/formula), because classes have to be balanced by level when they face content in a wide range of difficulty.

Look at the problem I'm facing when balancing my server concept (not directly the same thing, but related nonetheless). I have to balance the profit from killing monsters with the cost of SD rune. Knights don't have access to it, and mages do much more damage with SDs then paladins, hence they are meant to be special, and not spammable, so players can't profit while hunting with SDs, else mages are too much powerful and the go to classes, imbalanced, overpowered. I grab players from level 100, how much they spend to kill monster x, how much they profit, adjust SD costs accordingly. Players reach level 150, his SD does more damage, his actually profiting, he buys SDs nonstop and is spamming SDs, he's reaching higher levels faster and having even more profit, knights and paladins can't compete. I adjust the costs for level 150 players, and now its totally prohibitive for level 80 players, they can't even cross the barrier of collecting enough runes to make a avarage hunt of 1-2hours. It's a unsolvable problem, unless I make inumerous other changes and overrule the entire proposal (I still can't see a solution though).

Look what CipSoft did (since what I described was the game state at 7.72 +-). They make resources spammable for all classes, they drop same kind of damage in a similar way, you profit hunting easily, so you can fill up resources with no downtime (in comparison as how it was in oldschool, where you spent a lot of time trying to buy runes and manasitting). Gameplay is the same at all levels, classes does nearby the samething, you get profit everywhere, things die easily.

 

[Flatlander]

It's not limitless, and that makes all the difference. The cap still there. It's the exactly same things as extra levels, but measured differently. You can balance how powerfull a fully geared player will be compared to a recent level capped player, and in some way how much time a player will need to spend to achieve a fully geared character. All MMO's will try to keep you playing by trying to grind some shit, what we actually already pointed out, achievements, fake achievements, gear, cosmetics, and the list goes on. But which one give you the option to limitless grind power?


I agree with you in this points, those things are present and limit Tibia/OTServ design a lot by themselves. But I still do think limitless numbers constrict it even more. Some exemples:

#1 Damage over time in Tibia is irrelevant. And that won't change ever. Players overlevel the content to places where theirs instant damage is too relevant, since it's more efficient to exp, profit or both. Nowadays it's too fast-paced for damage over times mechanics, but oldschool was slow-paced and DoTs was still irrelevant by the reason I gave.

#2 Your damage formulas have to scale well for every level, hence you can't implement mechanics/formulas that aren't scalable. And more, classes have to have same power when facing content of different difficult. As if a class do damage by doing several fast small hits and other have spiked damage by cooldowns, the one that deliver spiked damage will have an absurd advantage when farm the content while overleveld, they both drop the same damage over time, but spiked damage dude can one shot shit, hence he can starting moving faster (while cooldowns come back) and take less damage by simple fighting faster. Solution? Standardization of classes.

#3 Maybe not a problem only by the game having no level cap but also by being too fast-paced (which is forced by not having a level cap, because of overlevel, efficiency and bla bla bla). But you have no space for silences/slows/stuns/knockbacks and those kind of things, that could be used differentiate classes. You just drop your damage and collect loot, if any of this mechanics are present they would be abusable/overpowered by the difference of character power and content difficulty. Look at Paralyze, it's soo retarded that the manacost is prohibitive and you can't use it at all in PvE, it's impossible to balance with players varying so hard in level/damage/etc (even movespeed ).

It's a matter of the content the player will play to grab exp or profit is where he can kill monsters fast. If you add gimmiks to differentiate classes, that aren't relevant to kill monsters fast, they will search content where they can ignore them and just kill things fast. You can't create other differences also (damage/formula), because classes have to be balanced by level when they face content in a wide range of difficulty.

Look at the problem I'm facing when balancing my server concept (not directly the same thing, but related nonetheless). I have to balance the profit from killing monsters with the cost of SD rune. Knights don't have access to it, and mages do much more damage with SDs then paladins, hence they are meant to be special, and not spammable, so players can't profit while hunting with SDs, else mages are too much powerful and the go to classes, imbalanced, overpowered. I grab players from level 100, how much they spend to kill monster x, how much they profit, adjust SD costs accordingly. Players reach level 150, his SD does more damage, his actually profiting, he buys SDs nonstop and is spamming SDs, he's reaching higher levels faster and having even more profit, knights and paladins can't compete. I adjust the costs for level 150 players, and now its totally prohibitive for level 80 players, they can't even cross the barrier of collecting enough runes to make a avarage hunt of 1-2hours. It's a unsolvable problem, unless I make inumerous other changes and overrule the entire proposal (I still can't see a solution though).

Look what CipSoft did (since what I described was the game state at 7.72 +-). They make resources spammable for all classes, they drop same kind of damage in a similar way, you profit hunting easily, so you can fill up resources with no downtime (in comparison as how it was in oldschool, where you spent a lot of time trying to buy runes and manasitting). Gameplay is the same at all levels, classes does nearby the samething, you get profit everywhere, things die easily.

I can do everything you said above on every MMO period.

I will log on Tera right now, go to the starting area, and 1 hit everything.
I can go on Age of Conan, and I can't go to the starting area, but I could EVEN go to the level 60 area and one hit everything (i'm level 80)
I could log on WoW and go to lower level content.

And, even if there WASNT levels, and it only had equipment. Once you have Raid Equipment, go fight normal monsters. You'll slaughter them all with your overpowered raid EQ.

ANY GAME, that has progression in which you gain power. You can go back to easier areas and do extremely well.

I'm just astonished you are saying the levels are the problem. Progression is the problem. You want everyone to be even? Then don't have any progression. And you'll have perfectly balanced PvP and PvE.

 

[Xagul]

Tbh there are 2 styles of rpg.

Ones that allow players to progress their characters strength over time. (basically every standard mmo today)
Ones that allow players to explore a world and problem solve with no real power progression. (basically adventure games/mainly single player these days)

What you all are arguing about is really quite silly because tibia falls into the player progression category. Sure we are making an OT and we COULD make an adventure rpg but the problem is that we aren't making our own game. We are making an open tibia server for the open tibia community, a community of players who enjoy the way tibia works e.g. progression/power.
It would be like making a custom pacman game and saying "now you can add talent points to give your pacman super powers every time you advance to the next stage". Yea sure the idea is cool and people would play it, but people who like pacman for what it is (skill based/no progression) are just going to continue to play the normal pacman game because they are playing it for the challenge not the progression.
OT is the same way but on the flip side. People playing tibia like the power and progression and might not mind a challenge as well but still want the power and progression none the less. Sure you can make a server where everyone is the same and the only thing you do all day is explore, solve puzzles, and pk other people but at the end of the day that's not really what people are looking for aside from maybe the pvp aspect in which case they could just go play a warserver and problem solved.

tldr
You guys are trying to reinvent the wheel because you are getting older and games like tibia no longer suit your play schedule but what you fail to realize is that the game isn't going to change just because YOU are getting older and have less time to play, just as the game candyland isn't going to change into a less childish game just because YOU are getting older and more mature(ish).

 

[Peonso]

I can do everything you said above on every MMO period.

I will log on Tera right now, go to the starting area, and 1 hit everything.
I can go on Age of Conan, and I can't go to the starting area, but I could EVEN go to the level 60 area and one hit everything (i'm level 80)
I could log on WoW and go to lower level content.

And, even if there WASNT levels, and it only had equipment. Once you have Raid Equipment, go fight normal monsters. You'll slaughter them all with your overpowered raid EQ.

ANY GAME, that has progression in which you gain power. You can go back to easier areas and do extremely well.

I'm just astonished you are saying the levels are the problem. Progression is the problem. You want everyone to be even? Then don't have any progression. And you'll have perfectly balanced PvP and PvE.

That's not how you play those other games efficiently, where do level 300+ players level at Tibia? Everything is "lowlevel" content that they faceroll, you lure everything in the screen and spam AoE, or just ignore everything by spamming heals and being in melee range despite your class. You don't abuse WoW leveling curve by going to low level zones, you get nothing by doing so. Leveling is the progression we have in Tibia (levels/progression are the same thing in our context), and the problem is not that per se, but it being endless, since then we have those already pointed problems. They are not present at WoW at all, as an exemple you presented and I have experience with.

 

[Peonso]

Tbh there are 2 styles of rpg.

Ones that allow players to progress their characters strength over time. (basically every standard mmo today)
Ones that allow players to explore a world and problem solve with no real power progression. (basically adventure games/mainly single player these days)

What you all are arguing about is really quite silly because tibia falls into the player progression category. Sure we are making an OT and we COULD make an adventure rpg but the problem is that we aren't making our own game. We are making an open tibia server for the open tibia community, a community of players who enjoy the way tibia works e.g. progression/power.
It would be like making a custom pacman game and saying "now you can add talent points to give your pacman super powers every time you advance to the next stage". Yea sure the idea is cool and people would play it, but people who like pacman for what it is (skill based/no progression) are just going to continue to play the normal pacman game because they are playing it for the challenge not the progression.
OT is the same way but on the flip side. People playing tibia like the power and progression and might not mind a challenge as well but still want the power and progression none the less. Sure you can make a server where everyone is the same and the only thing you do all day is explore, solve puzzles, and pk other people but at the end of the day that's not really what people are looking for aside from maybe the pvp aspect in which case they could just go play a warserver and problem solved.

tldr
You guys are trying to reinvent the wheel because you are getting older and games like tibia no longer suit your play schedule but what you fail to realize is that the game isn't going to change just because YOU are getting older and have less time to play, just as the game candyland isn't going to change into a less childish game just because YOU are getting older and more mature(ish).

That is it. I just feel that OTServ is perfect for the other model aswell, it has its disvantages obviously, since the content is finite and the tricks to keep players endlessly aren't present. But the feeling that you are playing https://www.clickerheroes.com/ won't be there, and that what some players actually like, balanced PvP, exploration, puzzles, quests. I actually feel that is what the majority like, they probably don't realised it. A great number of Tibia/OT players are nostalgic guys that played it 10 years ago, and/or people that can't be arsed to brainlessly grind and simply don't try or just bot. I mean, just read op post.

 

[Flatlander]

That's not how you play those other games efficiently, where do level 300+ players level at Tibia? Everything is "lowlevel" content that they faceroll, you lure everything in the screen and spam AoE, or just ignore everything by spamming heals and being in melee range despite your class. You don't abuse WoW leveling curve by going to low level zones, you get nothing by doing so. Leveling is the progression we have in Tibia (levels/progression are the same thing in our context), and the problem is not that per se, but it being endless, since then we have those already pointed problems. They are not present at WoW at all, as an exemple you presented and I have experience with.

Uhm, actually what alot of other games usually do is give every monster a level. And if you are below the monster's level you get a bonus for killing it, and if you are above the monsters level you get a lot less for killing it.

So lets say a dragon on tibia was level 25. This means anyone below level 25 would get bonus exp and loot. And anyone above level 25 would get less exp and loot.
Which fixes the problem tibia has, but absolutely ruins the virtual world.

Why would a dragon drop less depending on who kills it? If a dragon is HOLDING a dragon shield, he better drop it. (Yes I know loot is randomized on death, but tibia is an RPG Virtual World first, and a game second, things making sense in the world matters)

 

[whitevo]

that's funny topic to argue about xD
Everything has its own perks and downsides:
having level cap, and not having level cap,
monster having levels and not having levels,
damage scales on players and doesn't scale on players.

All this comes down to player preference.
This is why we have hundreds of successful MMORPG games not only 1.

I could care less if some OT decides to put level cap, and player spells doesn't scale with level/skills/items, etc.
As long as I get my daily dosage of feeling good, feeling challenged, a bit of progression(even if the progression is fake) and good moment what to remember rest of the day if I would think back what happened in game today.

I believe every custom server maker here has the same goals, but with different perspective.

 

[Xikini]

Using vague suggestions from this thread, I've slightly constructed an interesting level progression system.
If anyone cares to use it, or expand on it, by all means.
(note: I've put maybe 2 minutes of thought into this before starting to write.. soo bear with me.)

level 1 - 10, same as level 1 - 100 or 1-50. whatever.
Spells are locked to a certain level.
Only way to obtain spells is by sacrificing your level at the level of the spell or above. (spell level 7, player level 7/8/9/10, remove all experience gain new spell)
Once you have obtained a spell you can use it, regardless of level.
Leveling gives some stat boosts of course. Higher hp pool, higher capacity. Mana is stuck at 100/1000, whatever. (level 1, 100 hp. level 2, 200 hp. level 3, 400. 5, 800. 6, 1600. 7, 3200. 8, 6400. 9, 12800. 10, 20000.)
Mana is used to cast spells. Mana goes up slowly, with or without food. Any way to increase mana regeneration or refill mana instantly is gone.
You can sacrifice 1 spell of every level, once, to double mana regeneration rate.
You can sacrifice your level + a learned spell, of equal or higher value of another spell that you have already learned, to create a spell which can be used with your hp, instead of mana. (note: once you sacrifice a spell it cannot be learned again.)
You can sacrifice your level to do anything you can think of.

Pretty much anything regarding progression requires you to sacrifice your levels.
New quests. New spells. New gear. New areas.
You can even make levels/experience into currency.
Boarding boats. Buying supplies. Buying information. Gambling.

Only one hard fast rule.
If you die, you lose all experience gained. Back to level 1.

Of course there's one thing left not mentioned.
Loot.
Loot is a touchy topic, and is really up to you how much you want to invest into the idea of sacrificing levels to obtain stuff.
Loot is good. Keep loot.

The one main problem of course is progression.
I would personally create 1 class, that can simply start learning any spell they choose, and allow them to use spear/melee/magic, whatever they want.
The player decides how to continue their character.

This is idea can be magnified or detracted from, and probably bears no good reason in this topic, but I felt it was original enough to be posted somewhere, for someone to possibly use.

Anyways,
Cheers.

Xikini

The main idea is that each area will constantly be re-used by players as they will need to constantly reset their level to become stronger.
They may not stay in low level area's for long, once they've got some player progression, but they'll always be back if they want to progress some more.

 

[Peonso]

Uhm, actually what alot of other games usually do is give every monster a level. And if you are below the monster's level you get a bonus for killing it, and if you are above the monsters level you get a lot less for killing it.

So lets say a dragon on tibia was level 25. This means anyone below level 25 would get bonus exp and loot. And anyone above level 25 would get less exp and loot.
Which fixes the problem tibia has, but absolutely ruins the virtual world.

Why would a dragon drop less depending on who kills it? If a dragon is HOLDING a dragon shield, he better drop it. (Yes I know loot is randomized on death, but tibia is an RPG Virtual World first, and a game second, things making sense in the world matters)

The loot does not change, at least in WoW, it's just meaningless for high level players, since Dragon Shield would be suited for level 25 players. I don't think that it's relevant though.

I can't see how pointing the difference that Tibia monsters has fixed exp and no levels while WoW is the opposite helps, if you are trying to say that Tibia can't do a change because it doesn't have that other elements, well, what I'm saying is that Tibia is forced to be the way it is because of the level cap. But I don't think it's what you are saying, I just don't know where you are trying to get.

Good that you pointed WoW as an exemple, since I'm familiar with it, the only problem it has from the list I pointed here (https://otland.net/threads/on-the-dedication-of-players.233345/page-2#post-2250212) is the 4th one (since zones are meant just for a specific level). You said that the first one is not level cap fault, you pointed how grid 2d mechanics limits it. I do agree that grid 2d mechanics limits it, but showed my reasons to think level cap limits it aswell (https://otland.net/threads/on-the-dedication-of-players.233345/page-3#post-2251045). You didn't say the things I said where untrue, you said every game has the same issues, "I could log on WoW and go to lower level content." But going to low level content at WoW is not relevant at all, you get nothing from it, while in Tibia that is the way the game is efficiently played. WoW doesn't have the 3 issues to balance classes I pointed out, it actually differentiate class by them, and Tibia could do the same if it doesn't have a level cap.

 

[Flatlander]

The loot does not change, at least in WoW, it's just meaningless for high level players, since Dragon Shield would be suited for level 25 players. I don't think that it's relevant though.

I can't see how pointing the difference that Tibia monsters has fixed exp and no levels while WoW is the opposite helps, if you are trying to say that Tibia can't do a change because it doesn't have that other elements, well, what I'm saying is that Tibia is forced to be the way it is because of the level cap. But I don't think it's what you are saying, I just don't know where you are trying to get.

Good that you pointed WoW as an exemple, since I'm familiar with it, the only problem it has from the list I pointed here (https://otland.net/threads/on-the-dedication-of-players.233345/page-2#post-2250212) is the 4th one (since zones are meant just for a specific level). You said that the first one is not level cap fault, you pointed how grid 2d mechanics limits it. I do agree that grid 2d mechanics limits it, but showed my reasons to think level cap limits it aswell (https://otland.net/threads/on-the-dedication-of-players.233345/page-3#post-2251045). You didn't say the things I said where untrue, you said every game has the same issues, "I could log on WoW and go to lower level content." But going to low level content at WoW is not relevant at all, you get nothing from it, while in Tibia that is the way the game is efficiently played. WoW doesn't have the 3 issues to balance classes I pointed out, it actually differentiate class by them, and Tibia could do the same if it doesn't have a level cap.

I would argue that going to lower level content on tibia is meaningless. Ever see a level 200 killing rotworms? And if you did you'd say to yourself "What the hell is he doing, is he an idiot? He shouldn't be here. He should be off fighting in a spawn made for level 200 players."

EXACTLY the same sentence would be said on WoW. You see a level 50 in a level 20 area. "Hey, why aren't you in the level 50 zone? are you an idiot?"

The ONLY difference between a level cap system, and a endless level system. Is once you reach the level cap. You can no longer level. Meaning you have to then change how you play the game.

Also, level caps cause a HUGE problem, where players can be completely done with the game and have everything possible to do completed.
Once you get all the best gear on a max-level character, log off, your done till next expansion pack.
Or you might say "Yea but you need to get your whole guild the best gear, and the best mount, etc".

Sooner or later, you "beat" WoW, and its over until the next expansion pack, where they give out more levels and gear.

Which would be EXACTLY like if tibia had a level cap, and every update they increased the level-cap by 20 levels. There is literally no difference. It adds nothing to gameplay other than a wall that you can't get past.
Now you may say "Oh once you hit the level cap and have the best gear, then you PvP and its balanced PvP because EVERYONE has the exact same level and gear and skills and abilities and everything because EVERYONE has reached the level-cap and worked to get the best gear."

Well congratz, perfectly balanced PvP isn't hard when everyone is exactly the same. And its also boring.
Probably why so many people that play WoW kill themselves.