On the Dedication of Players

[Peonso]

I would argue that going to lower level content on tibia is meaningless. Ever see a level 200 killing rotworms? And if you did you'd say to yourself "What the hell is he doing, is he an idiot? He shouldn't be here. He should be off fighting in a spawn made for level 200 players."

EXACTLY the same sentence would be said on WoW. You see a level 50 in a level 20 area. "Hey, why aren't you in the level 50 zone? are you an idiot?"

You are exaggerating, let's use demons as exemples, they are suited for lvl 80-150 players. They are still the same thing levels 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700 hunt, easier and easier as they progress.

The ONLY difference between a level cap system, and a endless level system. Is once you reach the level cap. You can no longer level. Meaning you have to then change how you play the game.

Also, level caps cause a HUGE problem, where players can be completely done with the game and have everything possible to do completed.
Once you get all the best gear on a max-level character, log off, your done till next expansion pack.
Or you might say "Yea but you need to get your whole guild the best gear, and the best mount, etc".

Sooner or later, you "beat" WoW, and its over until the next expansion pack, where they give out more levels and gear.

The only difference? You kinda mocking me, since I pointed a dozen of problems/differences. I will agree with you that it's a huge downside of having a level cap. (I still thinking that recognizing the game content as limited and letting the player "beat" it is better, then trick them to keep repeating it by increasing numbers, related, https://www.clickerheroes.com/)

Which would be EXACTLY like if tibia had a level cap, and every update they increased the level-cap by 20 levels. There is literally no difference. It adds nothing to gameplay other than a wall that you can't get past.
Now you may say "Oh once you hit the level cap and have the best gear, then you PvP and its balanced PvP because EVERYONE has the exact same level and gear and skills and abilities and everything because EVERYONE has reached the level-cap and worked to get the best gear."

Well congratz, perfectly balanced PvP isn't hard when everyone is exactly the same. And its also boring.

Boring? The gameplay don't play a role at all? How a player can overplay the other giving the same starting conditions? What gives Tibia fun is the fact that who grinded more has severous advantages?

Probably why so many people that play WoW kill themselves.

 

[whitevo]

I would argue that going to lower level content on tibia is meaningless. Ever see a level 200 killing rotworms? And if you did you'd say to yourself "What the hell is he doing, is he an idiot? He shouldn't be here. He should be off fighting in a spawn made for level 200 players."

achievements. ofc.

The ONLY difference between a level cap system, and a endless level system. Is once you reach the level cap. You can no longer level. Meaning you have to then change how you play the game.

not true, you don't have to change the way to play the game.. You simply don't get level experience.

lso, level caps cause a HUGE problem, where players can be completely done with the game and have everything possible to do completed.

You say its HUGE problem, I say its not a problem at all. Doesn't matter is it capped level or not, game can be completed anyway, every player has its own perspective what does "game completed" mean.

Now you may say "Oh once you hit the level cap and have the best gear, then you PvP and its balanced PvP because EVERYONE has the exact same level and gear and skills and abilities and everything because EVERYONE has reached the level-cap and worked to get the best gear."

Only you are thinking it, nobody is saying it..

Well congratz, perfectly balanced PvP isn't hard when everyone is exactly the same. And its also boring.

There is no such thing like perfectly balanced and the more balanced it is the more cooler the PvP is.
Idk maybe you like to 1 shot other players, but trust me, the other end will think its "boring"

 

[StreamSide]

 

[whitevo]

what did xd?

Seems to me its the same quarrel back and forth

 

[Flatlander]

what did xd?

Seems to me its the same quarrel back and forth

it is. I'll never agree that Level-Cap systems are good, and they will never agree that endless-leveling systems are good.

To me, Wow realized their level-cap system is bad, which is why they let you instantly get a max-level character. Which means you do not have to level, ever.

So basically WoW would almost be the same if they didn't have levels, and just had Raids.
Not only that, the actual leveling content is so incredibly bad on these MMOs, because the developers clearly did not care about it. (The only thing that matters is end-game content, so they don't even try to make leveling fun).

Here is my description of every single MMORPG that has a level cap system.

1. Log in at level 1. NPC tells you to go down the road and talk to another NPC.
2. Reach other NPC, he tells you to go back to original NPC.
3. Starter NPC tells you to go FARTHER down the road this time.
4. Repeat Steps 1-3 until you go far enough down the road to reach the end of the Zone.
5. Go to next Zone, and start from Step 1.
6. Do this until you reach Max Level, then you can either quit the game, or join a guild.
7. If you join a guild, you can start doing Raids to get better gear.
8. Once you get better gear you can do harder Raids.
9. Repeat steps 7 and 8 until next Expansion pack comes out. (Which then you start at Step 1 again)

Tada, Follow these above steps and you can literally re-create WoW, Tera, Wildstar, Age of Conan, and any other MMORPG that has a level-cap system.

 

[owned]

Probably why so many people that play WoW kill themselves.

it is. I'll never agree that Level-Cap systems are good, and they will never agree that endless-leveling systems are good.

To me, Wow realized their level-cap system is bad, which is why they let you instantly get a max-level character. Which means you do not have to level, ever.

So basically WoW would almost be the same if they didn't have levels, and just had Raids.
Not only that, the actual leveling content is so incredibly bad on these MMOs, because the developers clearly did not care about it. (The only thing that matters is end-game content, so they don't even try to make leveling fun).

Here is my description of every single MMORPG that has a level cap system.

1. Log in at level 1. NPC tells you to go down the road and talk to another NPC.
2. Reach other NPC, he tells you to go back to original NPC.
3. Starter NPC tells you to go FARTHER down the road this time.
4. Repeat Steps 1-3 until you go far enough down the road to reach the end of the Zone.
5. Go to next Zone, and start from Step 1.
6. Do this until you reach Max Level, then you can either quit the game, or join a guild.
7. If you join a guild, you can start doing Raids to get better gear.
8. Once you get better gear you can do harder Raids.
9. Repeat steps 7 and 8 until next Expansion pack comes out. (Which then you start at Step 1 again)

Tada, Follow these above steps and you can literally re-create WoW, Tera, Wildstar, Age of Conan, and any other MMORPG that has a level-cap system.

Spot on. Most boring gameplay I've ever seen.

 

[whitevo]

I'll never agree that Level-Cap systems are good, and they will never agree that endless-leveling systems are good.

I have level-cap system in my server. I like it. (no clue what is my level cap, but i know its there somewhere)
Also every non level-cap server has a level Cap. So beats me what you trying to get at..

IT DOES NOT MATTER DOES SERVER HAVE LEVEL CAP OR NOT
ITS ALL ABOUT THE GAMEPLAY!

 

[Peonso]

I have level-cap system in my server. I like it. (no clue what is my level cap, but i know its there somewhere)
Also every non level-cap server has a level Cap. So beats me what you trying to get at..

IT DOES NOT MATTER DOES SERVER HAVE LEVEL CAP OR NOT
ITS ALL ABOUT THE GAMEPLAY!

The gameplay is kinda the same, you go to areas and kill monsters, how @Flatlander can see difference of what his describes and any Tibia/OTServ amuses me, Tibia has actually less, you can cut his points 6-9, you get to a point you cut point 5 also, since zones are limited but your levels aren't. If you have a level cap you don't have balance issues but you have issues to trick players to keep grinding, if you don't have it you have balance issues but players trick themselves by endlessly grinding numbers.

 

[Flatlander]

The gameplay is kinda the same, you go to areas and kill monsters, how @Flatlander can see difference of what his describes and any Tibia/OTServ amuses me, Tibia has actually less, you can cut his points 6-9, you get to a point you cut point 5 also, since zones are limited but your levels aren't. If you have a level cap you don't have balance issues but you have issues to trick players to keep grinding, if you don't have it you have balance issues but players trick themselves by endlessly grinding numbers.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
Ok here I will explain my first day of Tibia.

First day of tibia (before rookguard quests were made).
You log in. No one tells you anything other than the controls. You just go, explore, find your own way to play.
HUGE amounts of things happened, I found new areas, some people knew the orc language from doing research, huge teams of people were crowded around mino hell roping up orcs and minos to fight them one at a time. (Sometimes they would purposely trap you with the roped monsters and get you killed, still all part of the fun) etc.

Hidden quests were everywhere, hidden areas behind trees, in graveyards, even hidden pick holes. The game just plays completely different than WoW.
Tibia has almost nothing to do with leveling, that's just what some people choose to make the game about.

Leveling is just one of the many things you can achieve in tibia. And even if you make leveling your "goal". The way tibia works, you can even win wars with level 100s vs players of level 200-500.
As long as you can combo more than they can heal, you can kill anyone in the game. Which doesn't require you to be the same level. And because of Magic Walls and body blocking it allows you to use strategy to win wars.

Low-level noob characters could KILL the highest levels in the game if they all comboed. So when people found this out, they made a bunch of low-level noob characters and used an outside program to log them all in and attack. Inventing the mage-bomb.

Know why mage-bombs aren't on other MMORPGs? Because if you are even 10 levels lower than someone, they are a GOD compared to you. And all of your abilities do no damage.

Oh and if you wanted to actually PLAY the game with a friend? IMPOSSIBLE. It is LITERALLY impossible to play any MMORPG with a friend or two. Know why? Because if you log out and go to work, and then they keep playing. You'll come home and they will be level 40 and you are level 30. And now you cannot play together anymore. (Some MMORPGs have attempted to make systems that allows lower-levels to piggy-back with higher-levels but it has never really worked well).

This means, if you have around 30 people that plays games together (like I do) you basically are all playing a single-player game. At least until you reach level-cap.

But on tibia. EVERY PERSON I KNOW that plays the game effects me. I can loot something at level 100 that a level 40 wants, and sell it to him. If I'm being attacked. I can ask ALMOST ANYONE on my VIP list to come help. If 3 level 250 Mages are attacking me, I can have people from level 50 and higher come help and they literally would be helpful. Even if you just hit 100 per turn, it still helps.

Tibia is rather amazingly balanced for team-fights. Even if i'm on a level 200 mage. I can't solo a level 50 mage unless he runs out of supplies or misses a heal, or I get a super-lucky UE. And if he notices his HP goes low each turn, he can just pop manashield and be invincible until he runs out of potions.

To say tibia plays like any other MMO, is basically saying you have either never played tibia before. Or you have never played any other MMORPG before.

 

[whitevo]

o wow, ima read entire wall of text tomorrow, gona take a hazey break now xD

But from the first few sentences I can already see you trying to defend something with arguments.. what doesn't make sense for this context because GOD DAM YOU CHANGED THE TOPIC AGAIN!! xD

Hopefully we see Peonso, who tries to answer to this NEXT TOPIC

And then I bring my conclusion again about the topic change and what do I agree with and with what not xD

 

[Flatlander]

o wow, ima read entire wall of text tomorrow, gona take a hazey break now xD

But from the first few sentences I can already see you trying to defend something with arguments.. what doesn't make sense for this context because GOD DAM YOU CHANGED THE TOPIC AGAIN!! xD

Hopefully we see Peonso, who tries to answer to this NEXT TOPIC

And then I bring my conclusion again about the topic change and what do I agree with and with what not xD

I actually brought it back to the topic in my last post.

The thread owner said old-school tibia no longer works because we all have jobs. And honestly I think low-rate is better than high-rate when you have a job. (Because if you're level 100 and your friend is level 250, you can still PvP and do quests and stuff together, but if you are level 200 and your friend is level 800 like on some high rate servers, you can't even play with them at all)

 

[Peonso]

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

C'mon dude, you oversimplified 3d games rich in mechanics, and is highlighting Tibia mechanics as if they are exclusives and best thing ever. Have you ever played WoW? It's the second most played game in the world, losing just for League of Legends, still have 7 million SUBSCRIBERS despite being ELEVEN years old. You can't even compare it with other MMOs in terms of sucess, it's in an different tier. I'm now kind for advocating for WoW being a good game, because you turned it into a "Tibia is good vs. everyother level cap RPG sux" war. When my point was never that. Try to directly address this and this. Go watch a random Tibia cast and see how the player is facerolling the content, see how the content nearby seems it was actually balanced to be challenging for a player 200 levels lower. Try to find a video of a player in WoW facing low level content, it's really rare. I'm insisting in this issue because that's the only point I'm holding you actually adressed, and your point is that in any game players can go kill lower level content.

Now you may say "Oh once you hit the level cap and have the best gear, then you PvP and its balanced PvP because EVERYONE has the exact same level and gear and skills and abilities and everything because EVERYONE has reached the level-cap and worked to get the best gear."

Well congratz, perfectly balanced PvP isn't hard when everyone is exactly the same. And its also boring.

Look at what you are saying. WoW PvP boring... it has 10 classes (that have actually different mechanics), 2 different holes, huge skill cap and complexity, challenging as hell. Tibia PvP when has skill involved is just about trapping or not being trapped, else you spam nukes and heals, everyone is invencible unless overnumbered by a huge amount. Not that you can't find it fun, but well, it's personal taste. You know that people like oldschool war servers, healing and attacking share cooldowns, now you face choices, it adds an skill element, you have to mannually aim, another skill element, players of similar levels can actually kill each other in small groups, no dumb overnumber shit. But war servers works with a level cap, everyone has same level (in the range of 50-100) and gear. When you break that rules you got mages one shotting shit, SSA abuse, unkillable knights, lowerlevel feeding and shit.

Oh and if you wanted to actually PLAY the game with a friend? IMPOSSIBLE. It is LITERALLY impossible to play any MMORPG with a friend or two. Know why? Because if you log out and go to work, and then they keep playing. You'll come home and they will be level 40 and you are level 30. And now you cannot play together anymore. (Some MMORPGs have attempted to make systems that allows lower-levels to piggy-back with higher-levels but it has never really worked well).

This means, if you have around 30 people that plays games together (like I do) you basically are all playing a single-player game. At least until you reach level-cap.

But on tibia. EVERY PERSON I KNOW that plays the game effects me. I can loot something at level 100 that a level 40 wants, and sell it to him. If I'm being attacked. I can ask ALMOST ANYONE on my VIP list to come help. If 3 level 250 Mages are attacking me, I can have people from level 50 and higher come help and they literally would be helpful. Even if you just hit 100 per turn, it still helps.

I played both Tibia/OTServ and WoW a lot and what you actually described was totally inverse for me. I was always overleved by my friends and other players when I played Tibia, I couldn't join them as group since they faced content too strong for me, or when I joined was not like I was having a meaningful contribution and that bored me. In WoW my experience was totally different, once I reached the level cap I could join my own friends and other random players to do daily quests, dungeons, raids and some PvP. Yeah, while you don't reach the level cap you can just interact with players in a narrow level range, and sometimes it seams a single player game, but it was how I felt while playing Tibia nearby all the time.

 

[owned]

I played both Tibia/OTServ and WoW a lot and what you actually described was totally inverse for me. I was always overleved by my friends and other players when I played Tibia, I couldn't join them as group since they faced content too strong for me, or when I joined was not like I was having a meaningful contribution and that bored me. In WoW my experience was totally different, once I reached the level cap I could join my own friends and other random players to do daily quests, dungeons, raids and some PvP. Yeah, while you don't reach the level cap you can just interact with players in a narrow level range, and sometimes it seams a single player game, but it was how I felt while playing Tibia nearby all the time.

You should probably go back to playing WoW then. You realize you can make a WoW server? Maybe that'd be a better fit for the community you're trying to target. I can promise you, you will have no success in this field whatsoever.

 

[J.Dre]

Found my 3D glasses

 

[Peonso]

You should probably go back to playing WoW then. You realize you can make a WoW server? Maybe that'd be a better fit for the community you're trying to target. I can promise you, you will have no success in this field whatsoever.

Because you say so? Please leave me alone, after you confessed you stalked my profile for 12 hours I started to fear you.

 

[Flatlander]

C'mon dude, you oversimplified 3d games rich in mechanics, and is highlighting Tibia mechanics as if they are exclusives and best thing ever. Have you ever played WoW? It's the second most played game in the world, losing just for League of Legends, still have 7 million SUBSCRIBERS despite being ELEVEN years old. You can't even compare it with other MMOs in terms of sucess, it's in an different tier. I'm now kind for advocating for WoW being a good game, because you turned it into a "Tibia is good vs. everyother level cap RPG sux" war. When my point was never that. Try to directly address this and this. Go watch a random Tibia cast and see how the player is facerolling the content, see how the content nearby seems it was actually balanced to be challenging for a player 200 levels lower. Try to find a video of a player in WoW facing low level content, it's really rare. I'm insisting in this issue because that's the only point I'm holding you actually adressed, and your point is that in any game players can go kill lower level content.



Look at what you are saying. WoW PvP boring... it has 10 classes (that have actually different mechanics), 2 different holes, huge skill cap and complexity, challenging as hell. Tibia PvP when has skill involved is just about trapping or not being trapped, else you spam nukes and heals, everyone is invencible unless overnumbered by a huge amount. Not that you can't find it fun, but well, it's personal taste. You know that people like oldschool war servers, healing and attacking share cooldowns, now you face choices, it adds an skill element, you have to mannually aim, another skill element, players of similar levels can actually kill each other in small groups, no dumb overnumber shit. But war servers works with a level cap, everyone has same level (in the range of 50-100) and gear. When you break that rules you got mages one shotting shit, SSA abuse, unkillable knights, lowerlevel feeding and shit.



I played both Tibia/OTServ and WoW a lot and what you actually described was totally inverse for me. I was always overleved by my friends and other players when I played Tibia, I couldn't join them as group since they faced content too strong for me, or when I joined was not like I was having a meaningful contribution and that bored me. In WoW my experience was totally different, once I reached the level cap I could join my own friends and other random players to do daily quests, dungeons, raids and some PvP. Yeah, while you don't reach the level cap you can just interact with players in a narrow level range, and sometimes it seams a single player game, but it was how I felt while playing Tibia nearby all the time.

I have played WoW, Everquest 2, Age of Conan, Tera, Wildstar, many other notable MMORPGs.

Can you let me know when you first starting playing tibia? That would actually really help with this discussion.

Because believe it or not, tibia has changed to be more like other MMORPGs (worse), because they saw the success of other casual games (like WoW) where there is no deathloss, its incredibly dumbed down for the casuals, and there is no conflict between players. (Which means players hardly ever interract with each other)

Which might explain why you felt tibia felt like a single-player game, because now instead of every server having 400 players on a much smaller map. It has 300 players on a map twice as large, so everyone can have their own hunting area. Plus you don't get anything if you kill someone due to blessings, so there are hardly any random Pkers anymore. It's just a completely dead and desolate world now compared to what it was 5+ years ago.

It used to be, that basically anywhere you go on tibia, you'd MEET people, multiple people. Every town had 30-50 people just hanging out. There were at least 2 people in every popular spawn (Unless someone was using their power to kick everyone else out). So you'd meet people and you would talk to them. Why talk to them do you ask? Because they can kill you, steal your loot, annoy you while you hunt, and all sorts of other terrible things. So you would try to be friends to everyone you met. And sometimes, they were actually cool people, and you made new friends.

Other times, you would end up with mortal enemies, and those enemies would last forever.

Also, I think WoW PvP is boring because it is usually in a controlled environment. When people are being pked on tibia, their heartbeat rises, some people start shaking, adrenaline courses through your veins, and its exciting as all hell. Playing WoW PvP is basically like playing League of Legends. If you win cool, if you lose whatever, if someone on your 3v3 team sucks call them a noob. Next match plz.

To me, that's boring. To me, Tibia's current PvP is boring. It was fun when most people didn't have AoL and blessings only protected experience. And AoLs cost 50k, so if you died with AoL you lost 50k INSTEAD of your backpack and POSSIBLY other items. (half the time you wouldn't even drop 50k worth of items if you died back then, so no one used AoLs except the higher levels that had Softboots/MPA/Etc)

WoW used to be better too, when it was actually difficult, it is worse now because it was also dumbed down for the casuals.

We have a difference of opinion. Yes WoW has lots of players. So does Football Manager 2015. Does it mean it's a good game? Well that's an opinion.

People who stream games, aren't the type of people that do crazy stupid stuff. They just grind the most effective easy content. Which is why watching MMORPG streams is so incredibly boring (yes even raids). So whether you watch someone play Tibia or WoW. Most likely you'll be watching some sort of Grind.

 

[Peonso]

I have played WoW, Everquest 2, Age of Conan, Tera, Wildstar, many other notable MMORPGs.

Can you let me know when you first starting playing tibia? That would actually really help with this discussion.

I played Tibia from 7.11 to 8.1 +-, started august 2003, I think it's more or less the time they implemented the quest system. And WoW nearby entire Wrath of the Lich King and Cataclysm.

 

[Flatlander]

I played Tibia from 7.11 to 8.1 +-, started august 2003, I think it's more or less the time they implemented the quest system. And WoW nearby entire Wrath of the Lich King and Cataclysm.

Anyways, We simply like different games. I like open world MMORPGs that have Open-World PvP and heavy deathloss.

You seem to like instanced MMORPGs that have a level cap and raiding.

Honestly I don't care if there is a level-cap. I just like open-world PvP and heavy-deathloss. And games with a Level-Cap usually have soul-bound items, almost no deathloss, and usually 90% of the zones are non-pvp.

 

[owned]

Because you say so? Please leave me alone, after you confessed you stalked my profile for 12 hours I started to fear you.

Ahh caught me, wasted 12 whole hours watching your profile. Wait did I confess that? Oh wait no I didn't. As a result of your ignorance, you drew that conclusion. When in reality I clicked your picture 2 minutes after I posted, then again when I logged back on.

Do you really think you're the first person to come around here and think of a level cap system? You're way to naive to understand that people play tibia because it is the way it is. You take away everything that is tibia you might as well start your own new game design.

 

[Peonso]

Anyways, We simply like different games. I like open world MMORPGs that have Open-World PvP and heavy deathloss.

You seem to like instanced MMORPGs that have a level cap and raiding.

Honestly I don't care if there is a level-cap. I just like open-world PvP and heavy-deathloss. And games with a Level-Cap usually have soul-bound items, almost no deathloss, and usually 90% of the zones are non-pvp.

I like both, they got both good and bad points, that's true. I just don't see those features forcely packed together, why not a open-world PvP and heavy-deathloss level capped game? Haha.

Ahh caught me, wasted 12 whole hours watching your profile. Wait did I confess that? Oh wait no I didn't. As a result of your ignorance, you drew that conclusion. When in reality I clicked your picture 2 minutes after I posted, then again when I logged back on.

Do you really think you're the first person to come around here and think of a level cap system? You're way to naive to understand that people play tibia because it is the way it is. You take away everything that is tibia you might as well start your own new game design.

That fixation is becoming frightening. Please leave me alone dude, you aren't even distinguishing jokes anymore, you are taken them seriously and even explaining yourself.