Should OtLand Open New OtServerlist site?

[Beo]

Hey, I have a wild, crazy idea.

How about instead of targeting one person who built a website to list otservers, because it's the easy option, why not blame the shit, greedy community of open tibia?

As many of you have said, there is no reliable way to prevent spoofing. Sure you can put things in place, but the shitty server owners will still find a way around it. This isn't a otservlist problem, it's a community problem.

Sure, xinn takes cash for promoted servers, why should his platform allow server owners to earn cash, but he can't earn a little side money after hosting it for 15 years?

Most of the people complaining in this thread haven't provided a single thing to the open tibia community and recently I've only seen them putting themselves on a pedestal while trying to drag everyone else down.

 

[Evil Puncker]

@xinn
Dunno why people ask for this voting system, the most popular servers will be even more popular... (haters vs real big player base).

I just wanted to ask you about adding few simple things:

• possibility to set "custom" exp rate, which doesnt follow rl tibia pattern
• "OTC" in client filter instead of forcing us to pick "n/a"
• new filter with simple info, BOTS: YES/NO - if they are allowed or not.

finally good suggestions instead of the pepega "add voting system", I hope @xinn add better filtering like this

 

[Source]

Last time I'm wasting my time with you if you keep it low effort like that.

1) This isn't a thread about Nightwolf and whether he commits logical fallacies or not.
2) It's not my job to do your research, if you want to present evidence for something you should actually post links to whatever you're trying to prove instead of saying "just look in other threads!"...
3) This topic doesn't interest me even a little bit. Pointing out how somebody that commits multiple logical fallacies in each post ends up whining about someone else allegedly committing logical fallacies, now that's a lot of fun sometimes (for a short while, and then it gets boring).

Everytime Night Wolf brought up a credential was to back up a proposal or his point of view, and he did that instead of actually going through why the proposal is good or would work. If you can't check what was already being discussed here in this same topic I don't see the point.

Ok, if you say so. All I've seen is him mentioning once or twice in this thread that he's an AI researcher for a multi-billion dollar company.
Seems worth mentioning imo, seeing that the average OT developer generally doesn't have any credentials, and a lot of them make very bold claims constantly as if they're experts on everything, along with a lot of trolls, etc.
I don't see the problem with mentioning his credentials once in a thread just to emphasize for people who has no idea who he is (and who themselves think they're the king of everyone and everything) that he actually has some relevant credentials/expertise on a given topic.
What's the issue?

How you can see a falacy where there are no arguments show your lack of interpretation skills. Nor middle paragraph, nor his last sentence are arguments, I'm not backing any statements with it. I was stating facts to give context for the last paragraph, where I develop my argument.

Are you by any chance a vegetarian, since you like salad so much?

Out of nonwhere people are claiming Xinn should riskly revamp his smoothly on going business without presenting any feasible incentive. Which clearly leads to think it's for their on sake. And I remember the fact that they could do it themselves and that those who tried got no success. How the hell you see a strawman here?

Out of nowhere, "riskly", no incentive, no success, therefor no strawman. Got it.

 

[Peonso]

I find myself using this rating system way more than I ever used otservlist and the online count... if I expect fake user reviews then I head into the reviews and read them for myself.. looking at only the ones users will up vote.

I cant see how this isnt a win over the current system? I would like love to see this implemented in OTland tbh and the advertisement section overhauled.

3 points..
1. user reviews are very easy to fake but tend to be very easy to identify..
2. online count spoofing is very easy to fake but can be easy or very hard to identify given the skill of the developer.
3. otservlist and online count are the reason we have 'dedot' mentality.

need to create a better system favoring good developed OTS and not just the ones who know how to spoof incognito..

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In the end I dont think any change is possible until OTS start to remove online count.

Would you risk your steam account to game the review system and lose it? That is your answer. Why people simple don't do it instead of demanding Xinn? He has no incentive to do so, people that go to his website seek the information he presents.

 

[Night Wolf]

Would you risk your steam account to game the review system and lose it? That is your answer. Why people simple don't do it instead of demanding Xinn? He has no incentive to do so, people that go to his website seek the information he presents.

and that's yet another bold claim.
This simply doesn't add up with the other sentences you wrongly mentioned as well (no competitors, no complains).
I never asked to revamp the list nor making a new default sorting option, all I suggested was new fields and new sorting options (I explicitely told they didn't needed to replace default sorting that we currently have).

The incentive is: making a better list since current system is exploitable and force all owners to adapt their servers into it. Understanding how your business can adapt to your customers needs instead of them adapting to you.

I don't know how to put it any other way, if you don't understand those basic points then anything else we can discuss is meaningless.

 

[Peonso]

Please don't reply, that's just to make an didactical exemple for all the readers.

1) This isn't a thread about Nightwolf and whether he commits logical fallacies or not.

Forum discussions often deviate to other topics interlocutors find relevant, that just natural. Xinn and Night Wolf himself went that route and I joined, and you to follow on your free will. Voicing this to sound reasonable actually sounds dumb, because relates to nothing.

2) It's not my job to do your research, if you want to present evidence for something you should actually post links to whatever you're trying to prove instead of saying "just look in other threads!"...

As I replied, you didn't even needed to search the other thread. An undenyable one:

It's easier to just say "I don't have time" or "I don't want to have any work" than to try and be dishonest with yourself and your users.
As for the off-topic discussion about anti cheating, I don't know why everyone here in this community just assume that I'm saying things out of nowhere when I already proved that I have the background and I'm constantly monitoring big projects in Kaggle. Not like my 2008 account wouldn't mean I'm here long enough or that I'm old and experienced enough... but common, I'm a machine learning researcher...

Most of his posts he made a claim, don't provide back up data to prove it and let it slip some sort of credential, might be subtle for you, but check his first post on this thread also, he left Xinn a suggestion, plain one with no reasoning, and deviate the topic leaving credentials everywhere.

3) This topic doesn't interest me even a little bit. Pointing out how somebody that commits multiple logical fallacies in each post ends up whining about someone else allegedly committing logical fallacies, now that's a lot of fun sometimes (for a short while, and then it gets boring).

We can see, the wall of text is a proof of how uniterested you are. Probably the more you write the more you show how less interested you are.

Ok, if you say so. All I've seen is him mentioning once or twice in this thread that he's an AI researcher for a multi-billion dollar company.
Seems worth mentioning imo, seeing that the average OT developer generally doesn't have any credentials, and a lot of them make very bold claims constantly as if they're experts on everything, along with a lot of trolls, etc.
I don't see the problem with mentioning his credentials once in a thread just to emphasize for people who has no idea who he is (and who themselves think they're the king of everyone and everything) that he actually has some relevant credentials/expertise on a given topic.
What's the issue?

I thought that wasn't what the thread was about and you had no interest at all in the topic. You made those claims to look dumb when you dig on the subject again? Anyway, your so sought quote was given before and already reply to that.

you by any chance a vegetarian, since you like salad so much?

"Arguing with a fool is like playing chess with a pigeon: no matter how good you are, the bird is going to knock over the pieces, shit all over the board, and strut around like it won."

Out of nowhere, "riskly", no incentive, no success, therefor no strawman. Got it.

Me qualifying the argument doesn't make it something else. It's literally me attacking the argument. For it to be a strawman I would need to be attacking something else no one said, which is not the case.

 

[Source]

"Arguing with a fool is like playing chess with a pigeon: no matter how good you are, the bird is going to knock over the pieces, shit all over the board, and strut around like it won."

You're right, we should just ignore you.

 

[Peonso]

and that's yet another bold claim.
This simply doesn't add up with the other sentences you wrongly mentioned as well (no competitors, no complains).
I never asked to revamp the list nor making a new default sorting option, all I suggested was new fields and new sorting options (I explicitely told they didn't needed to replace default sorting that we currently have).

The incentive is: making a better list since current system is exploitable and force all owners to adapt their servers into it. Understanding how your business can adapt to your customers needs instead of them adapting to you.

I don't know how to put it any other way, if you don't understand those basic points then anything else we can discuss is meaningless.

That's why I might took you by the general "want voting system", you quote me replying against it sounds like that is your team. You quote Xinn talking about it, saying you were the only one you saw suggesting it. If it's not the case better. But it's really not the case, my claims are bold??

Just remember I rejoined because you were talking about falacies. And however you frame your point, the structure still looked like: Otservlist should have "this format" -> because my credentials.

 

[Night Wolf]

From Xinn I can understand the defensiveness, replying here is a method to back himself sending the message: "Hey I'm watching out, you can't say I don't care" but at the same time doing nothing to actually address those problems. But from you? What's your interest in defending a point against more options to help other servers that are not copy paste from Global?

Also, I didn't though I would need to give any proof of concept than those 2 things:

• andersonfaaria/antibot (https://github.com/andersonfaaria/antibot)
• Feature - Spoof system (https://otland.net/threads/spoof-system.270445/)

You can also find some people reporting my old server (Empire) by spoofing. We never really opened the server as it's been in development all along (we made a open beta once and that's when we bought the countdown from Xinn because we wanted people to take it seriously and try to harm the server for us to find the issues.)

You quote Xinn talking about it, saying you were the only one you saw suggesting it.

Yes, I have NEVER seen anyone suggesting this other than me. If anyone else has suggested this in the past, I didn't saw it.
What's wrong with that claim?

 

[Peonso]

From Xinn I can understand the defensiveness, replying here is a method to back himself sending the message: "Hey I'm watching out, you can't say I don't care" but at the same time doing nothing to actually address those problems. But from you? What's your interest in defending a point against more options to help other servers that are not copy paste from Global?

Also, I didn't though I would need to give any proof of concept than those 2 things:

• andersonfaaria/antibot (https://github.com/andersonfaaria/antibot)
• Feature - Spoof system (https://otland.net/threads/spoof-system.270445/)

You can also find some people reporting my old server (Empire) by spoofing. We never really opened the server as it's been in development all along (we made a open beta once and that's when we bought the countdown from Xinn because we wanted people to take it seriously and try to harm the server for us to find the issues.)


Yes, I have NEVER seen anyone suggesting this other than me. If anyone else has suggested this in the past, I didn't saw it.
What's wrong with that claim?

You got me wrong, I'm not defending Xinn's cause. I don't like he has the monopoly, probably the person that milked more money from otservers ever and can put a price on who succeds or fail. But I do think he is right in not wanting to listen to people that claim they know how he could do better. And people that want a change wanting it to come from Xinn are totally delusional, he has no incentive to do so. Also voting lists makes no sense at all, I would bet money no one can pull anything that resemble Steam system for otservers, it's not feasible.

Regarding your question, I still not sure if you are vouching for a "voting list" or not. Related anyway Shove otservlist.org up your.... (https://otland.net/threads/shove-otservlist-org-up-your.254797/)

 

[LordCompi]

Hey, I have a wild, crazy idea.

How about instead of targeting one person who built a website to list otservers, because it's the easy option, why not blame the shit, greedy community of open tibia?

If you mean community of hosters then I fully agree

 

[Night Wolf]

@Peonso I think you got it all wrong, let me put in simpler terms:
- I don't want Xinn to change, I'm saying that he'll have to adapt to what's yet to come. I'm giving leverage by saying: "look, I'll finish my spoof system and it will certainly be a chaos in your business, I don't want to be disruptive, all I'm saying is that there are opportunities that we can do better. This way you can both keep your business running as usual and we can have a better otservlist"
I'm also saying "from those opportunities, those are the ones I think would be easy to implement, and those are the ones that I bet you'll try to do to avoid implementing stuff, and they won't work because of this".

So yeah, I can foresee those probable outcomes:
A) Xinn listen to the community and we keep working together.
B) Xinn goes full ditactor and tells people they will now be required to send more data for his analysis, I'll keep adapting my spoof and we will do this mice/cat chase until he understands my point.
C) Xinn will have to rely on reports and manual checking for spoof
D) Xinn won't care at all and all the servers will use spoof until the point the list won't make any sense
E) People won't use spoof and just a few servers will be detected by manual report (highly unlikely as I already pointed out how the current ranking system make otadmins adapt to reach the top)
F) Xinn will close the otservlist (highly unlikely option either)

I bet B and C are the most likely to happen, but I'm no oracle so let's see. If I turn out to be correct, the work he'll have to put to deal with it will be way more than simply adapting alternative sorting options.

 

[Peonso]

B & C are the reality since ever. TFS code literally was changed to fit Xinn rules, which I wouldn't argue against though. Xinn is on this game since ever and proved he could adapt as needed. I'm not in the position to judge what will be comming, but I expect Xinn to still lead otserv advertising market forever.

Look at this thread, someone asks for a new lists, topic twists to "you fucking corrupt dictator xinn, give us the list we want, bend the knee", instead of trying to figure out some alternative to Xinn's list.

 

[Night Wolf]

B & C are the reality since ever. TFS code literally was changed to fit Xinn rules, which I wouldn't argue against though. Xinn is on this game since ever and proved he could adapt as needed. I'm not in the position to judge what will be comming, but I expect Xinn to still lead otserv advertising market forever.

Look at this thread, someone asks for a new lists, topic twists to "you fucking corrupt dictator xinn, give us the list we want, bend the knee", instead of trying to figure out some alternative to Xinn's list.

The best alternative would be for him to do the changes anticipating the damage. Depending on what he did I could even drop the idea of investing my time in finalizing that.
In any other context I would agree with you, but for the first time ever we are having a mix of stuff happening together that can be a game changer for the community.

• Xinn and other exploiters are being exposed and discussed about
• TFS has lost a lot of dedicated developers and we now have other alternatives that are performing better in certain aspects (optimized tfs, otservbr global). As those grow and get more visibility, I highly doubt saiayns or otservbr will bend towards otservlist will. It's highly likely that the competitors that xinn himself made by choosing to deal things the harder way will dethrone him.
• New initiaves to re-do a lot of stuff we have been using from the core
• Technology (specially ML) advancements.
• New devs in the community.
• New communities

The future looks awesome, it's either adapt or die from now on. That goes for otadmins, devs and any other project in this community.
Ofc those things take time and we will only see such results next year probably, but they are happening right now.

 

[Peonso]

@xKrazyx gonna add some data here. Valve takes 30% revenue share of the games on the platform. Valve forbiddes developers to ask for reviews within game. User Reviews (Steamworks Documentation) (https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/store/reviews)

Valve finally takes on Steam user review score manipulation

www.eurogamer.net

Valve bans developer after employees leave fake user reviews [Updated]

Insel Games CEO encouraged employees to write reviews for its own game.

arstechnica.com

Review bomb - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Do you really think that could fit OTServ in any way or that Xinn or anyone else would be able to pull anything like that?

 

[xKrazyx]

@xKrazyx gonna add some data here. Valve takes 30% revenue share of the games on the platform. Valve forbiddes developers to ask for reviews within game. User Reviews (Steamworks Documentation) (https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/store/reviews)

Valve finally takes on Steam user review score manipulation

www.eurogamer.net

Valve bans developer after employees leave fake user reviews [Updated]

Insel Games CEO encouraged employees to write reviews for its own game.

arstechnica.com

Review bomb - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Do you really think that could fit OTServ in any way or that Xinn or anyone else would be able to pull anything like that?

im not saying xinn has to implement it and im not saying use that exact rating system steam is using.
all im saying is a better environment/system is needed than the current ones we have.

Otland advertisement is cool and I think it works in some ways but it could be improved.. players will respond to 3 threads behind of an old war OT I havent run in years...

And review bombing is fixed by a number of things you can do, such as the things valve is doing. I would gladly donate to OTLand each month if it meant keeping my advert thread clean from BS.

The combination of xinns otservlist, the online list/ online count has killed so many awesome OTS who dont spoof I have lost count. - 'ded ot' mentality.

I think in general OTS need to move away from releasing the online count and the online list as it creates the 'ded ot' mentality.

This may be a combination of the lack of interest in Tibia/OTS over time but I have rls in Missouri out of all places who still play Medivia and OTs. Its just a genre that will never die imo. The issue now is people are lazy and need a server thrown in their face to play it now days. Which is why I advocate for an offical Otland facebook group or discord where people can go to find servers. You can use otland donations to promote the fb group.

In my personal experience when I run my OT I receive more positive reviews than negative.
I would like the numerous amount of reviews to correlate to something players who haven't played my server can see easily see without having to read through 200 reviews.. Why? It would create a new variable to look at for the vast amount of people who only look at the online count due to how we've played OTS the last 15 years.

Take my last OT launch for instance.
200-250 real players last launch without OTServlist but had to listen to players say my ot was 'ded' because it didnt have 500-1000 spoofs online and it wasnt on otservlist. They were comparing it to other rediculously spoofed OTS. xD Same with Tibiantis go read their thread, beause of the non mc/spoof environment they have players saying 'dedot'. And I highly respect the work theyve put in.

In my personal opinion I think its time OTS move away from the online list..
Stop releasing player names and online counts, force the game to be natural by adding players to vip. every player has the ability to see whos online through vip

So many big name online RPGs do not release online counts/all online player names. theres a reason 95-99% of other games dont do it

I think it would be a much more healthier environment if servers received their players by the reputation of the game servers content.. not the variable thats in their online count.. (much different than actual number online which is important and as ive stated in previous posts why the online count means nothing anymore)

Server population should be translated into categories rather than numbers

Population - Low / Medium/ High / PACKED

And this may not be the answer but I think change in some way needs to be made, otherwise posts like 'otservlist is corrupt' and 'make a new otservlist' will continue to come out...

Everything im talking about I can do myself I suppose.. I just think it would be nice to improve things for other players and developers. Like I said ive seen a lot of OTS die from 'ded ot' mentality. Including yours(Peonso) to be honest.. I played one of your old school OTs a while back and everyone quit do to your online list. 40 ppl logged in at launch but everyone spammed 'ded ot' I was one of the last ones online.. and I would have kept playing if ppl stayed logged in.. even 20.. (not the japan one) it was a good OT. I enjoyed my time.

 

[Kuzyn]

@xKrazyx
There is a crazy loop started some time ago. X server is going to start but people are waiting for launch to see how succesful or not it is going to be in terms of online counter. They see ~100 ppl at start and say "meh, will die soon, lets go somewhere else". And nobody knows how many players/passive spectators are doing the same thing - waiting for a miracle(?), instead of login in to the game and check it out. And it goes again with next server. Thats what I see on fb groups.

And as you said, people are looking for interesting servers, e.g. 7.4/7.6 because everyone is whining for old protocols and they see 50 online during a day and they dont want to play because in their heads this server is unplayable.

 

[Ochman]

Which is actually pretty funny, because 100 people online (people and online, not characters and not as whole player base) is actually all you need for old school protocols to be successful. Everything more than 100 is just good addon to the game but does not change gameplay that drastically. (You already have problems with great spots and so on).

Anyways, I thought that maybe OTLand could give us an API to use to link OTLand users to external sites? Just simple OAuth? I do not think it's do-able but maybe OTLand is willing to provide it?
Then OTLand accounts have more credibility than a freshly created account on otservlist, and it would help with reviews since let's be honest, in most cases we can see whose active here on forum and whose opinion matters rather than some hour-long account endlessly bashing server for being banned for botting.

 

[LordCompi]

Let's spoof some top for money

Xinn 10 yrs ago today
This is my humble opinion.

 

[Ochman]

But how is it relevant to this topic?
Even funnier when posted by account from 2012 and it's your first post, where did you get this account from