Should OtLand Open New OtServerlist site?

[BahamutxD]

Why are player numbers even a thing?

People will tend to play only in the populated servers, leaving the 99% rest of servers empty. No matter how good some may be.

 

[Source]

@kay;
@LordCompi;
@Kuzyn;
@Source;
@Night Wolf;
Give me a reliable way to find out how many real people are playing a server and I'm onto doing otservlist alternative without it being some relict of the past.
Because I do agree with most of your accusations towards xinn, but how can you expect that he manually goes to each server, checks it, and says something like "Well, this looks like a spoof, let's mark it this way". And don't even try to say "it's obvious", because if you cannot prove it - is it really?

Should OtLand Open New OtServerlist site?

@xinn, another logical fallacy, this one is called argumentum ad hominem. You didn't replied any of my inqueries, you are just trying to discredit my argument using old and out of context posts. My server failed because of me, that's true. But what I said is also true. Both things can coexist. I...

otland.net

The problem we have with top list Of ot server list

@xinn Ok, lets address one point at a time. I have to start by asking a question since the parts of my posts that you're responding to, and the way you're responding, makes absolutely no sense: Why would you assume here that I don't know about the max 4 MC rule when I literally mentioned it...

otland.net

The problem we have with top list Of ot server list

@xinn Ok, lets address one point at a time. I have to start by asking a question since the parts of my posts that you're responding to, and the way you're responding, makes absolutely no sense: Why would you assume here that I don't know about the max 4 MC rule when I literally mentioned it...

otland.net

The problem we have with top list Of ot server list

@xinn Ok, lets address one point at a time. I have to start by asking a question since the parts of my posts that you're responding to, and the way you're responding, makes absolutely no sense: Why would you assume here that I don't know about the max 4 MC rule when I literally mentioned it...

otland.net

 

[Peonso]

@xinn, another logical fallacy, this one is called argumentum ad hominem. You didn't replied any of my inqueries, you are just trying to discredit my argument using old and out of context

Just because I like the subject (falacies and argument structure), you can't really argue that because you made yourself your argument. Your logic behind your point were throwing credentials, "I know better and people should trust me because: look at my awesome curriculum!" Which in the end is a falacy in itself, Argument from authority - Wikipedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority) at it's best.

Otservlist should have "this format" -> because my credentials.

Then he questions how your only public driven project in this community context was a failure and how you claim to know how to solve a multimilion dollar problem in the gaming industry but actually never solved it for any of those multibilion dollar companies. Seems like Ad Hominen, but in reality he is tackling your central and basilar argument, yourself.

 

[szatan1x]

you had 15 years to make a good list, instead better wrote "xinn did nothing for 15 years" funny

 

[Source]

Just because I like the subject (falacies and argument structure), you can't really argue that because you made yourself your argument. Your logic behind your point were throwing credentials, "I know better and people should trust me because: look at my awesome curriculum!" Which in the end is a falacy in itself, Argument from authority - Wikipedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority) at it's best.

An "argument from authority" fallacy has become basically the most misunderstood/abused fallacy in recent times (especially among young people who have no idea what they're talking about on the Internet in particular ("I'm right because I call your argument a fallacy!")), and it's really only a fallacy when "authority", especially without any credentials to back it up, is used as the only appeal to someone's argument, i.e. "Nightwolf is right BECAUSE he's an authority" or "Xinn is right BECAUSE he has the best OTS list website and is therefor always correct!!!", that's the fallacy, not "Nightwolf actually has relevant credentials on the topic and therefor listening to him might be a good idea", that's not an argument from authority fallacy.
See:

• Argument from authority - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority#Appeal_to_false_authority)
• Credentialism and educational inflation - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credentialism#Credentialism_and_professionalization)
• Argument from authority - RationalWiki (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority)

A non-fallacious argument from authority grounds a claim in the beliefs of one or more authoritative source(s), whose opinions are likely to be true on the relevant issue. Notably, insofar as the authorities in question are, indeed, experts on the issue in question, their opinion provides strong inductive support for the conclusion: It makes the conclusion likely to be true, not necessarily true. As such, an argument from authority can only strongly suggest what is true — not prove it.

 

[Night Wolf]

Just because I like the subject (falacies and argument structure), you can't really argue that because you made yourself your argument. Your logic behind your point were throwing credentials, "I know better and people should trust me because: look at my awesome curriculum!" Which in the end is a falacy in itself, Argument from authority - Wikipedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority) at it's best.

Otservlist should have "this format" -> because my credentials.

Then he questions how your only public driven project in this community context was a failure and how you claim to know how to solve a multimilion dollar problem in the gaming industry but actually never solved it for any of those multibilion dollar companies. Seems like Ad Hominen, but in reality he is tackling your central and basilar argument, yourself.

In Brazil we have an expression called 'Passar pano' which roughly translates to "mopping the floor". You say it when someone else is defending a point/friend even though he's wrong.


I don't know if you're just trolling or what, but my point was never about myself. I've said plenty of times that the list is exploitable, there are several examples of servers who did it too and besides existing proof, I have also proved it through logical deduction. Do you want me to prove it mathematically and geometrically too for you to be convinced?

I've never talked about credentials, I just mentioned that I'm a researcher but not in the sense of argumentation from authority, but rather to make it clear that I'm no layman in the subject and that I could explain in depth but it would require my audience to have certain understanding that I'm not sure they have atm. Xinn could take this reply to take into more depth on how he analysis the data rather than argumenting:
"I have charts and all bans are automatic, if I explain how this work I'll give more power to those trying to spoof". He himself already proved I'm right because his defenses rely simply on people not finding out what are the rules of the game....

My public driven project in community is happening right now, and the fact that you're here discussing it should mean something hahaha
I already stated what needs to be done and why logically it would work, now with the basics they can try to follow the direction or ask Kaggle experts for help. It simply isn't challenging enough for me as I already did it to Tibia (which has tons of more complex layers because MMORPGs >>>> FPS in terms of complexity).
I already work for a multibillion company and solve a lot of problems of it, I just don't care about Valve or Riot (or games/games company in general).

 

[Peonso]

it's really only a fallacy when "authority", especially without any credentials to back it up, is used as the only appeal to someone's argument, i.e. "Nightwolf is right BECAUSE he's an authority" (...) that's the fallacy

That's literally what we have here, go check all Night Wolf posts, all from the thread Xinn linked also. And you clearly see how he use his credentials to back up why he is right. That's the only reason he brought them up insistently all the time.

Xinn has a product that works for him, for a huge public and for his clients. He is on it for 15 years. He has no competiton. He has tons of data regarding this specific niche no one can even grasp.

Still you have dozen people here that think he should revamp it totally, turn it into something clearly way more abusable, since they know better, for which reason anyway??? Ohhh to please themselves. As if Xinn is responsable to fill that niche they think exists. Did you had any success trying?

 

[Ahilphino]

I already work for a multibillion company and solve a lot of problems of it, I just don't care about Valve or Riot (or games/games company in general).

You mention this in every other post XDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

Duuuude stop writing articles about sucesful ot projects that u are jealous of, they probably make 10x more than some random developer does from a poor country

 

[Night Wolf]

That's literally what we have here, go check all Night Wolf posts, all from the thread Xinn linked also. And you clearly see how he use his credentials to back up why he is right. That's the only reason he brought them up insistently all the time.

Xinn has a product that works for him, for a huge public and for his clients. He is on it for 15 years. He has no competiton. He has tons of data regarding this specific niche no one can even grasp.

Still you have dozen people here that think he should revamp it totally, turn it into something clearly way more abusable, since they know better, for which reason anyway??? Ohhh to please themselves. As if Xinn is responsable to fill that niche they think exists. Did you had any success trying?

No one talked about revamping, have you even read what I've said?

Post automatically merged: Aug 20, 2020

You mention this in every other post XDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

Duuuude stop writing articles about sucesful ot projects that u are jealous of, they probably make 10x more than some random developer does from a poor country

Good criticism -> Jealousy
Argumentation ->Logical fallacy
Background -> Argument of authority

What's next? Flat earth? xD

 

[Source]

That's literally what we have here, go check all Night Wolf posts, all from the thread Xinn linked also. And you clearly see how he use his credentials to back up why he is right. That's the only reason he brought them up insistently all the time.

I'm not gonna go research whether Nightwolf has commited logical fallacies in other threads, I'm really not that interested, but if you would quote him here I would maybe respond.

Xinn has a product that works for him, for a huge public and for his clients. He is on it for 15 years. He has no competiton. He has tons of data regarding this specific niche no one can even grasp.

You're committing at least one logical fallacy here, [removed link] -> "He has tons of data regarding this specific niche no one can even grasp."

Still you have dozen people here that think he should revamp it totally, turn it into something clearly way more abusable, since they know better, for which reason anyway??? Ohhh to please themselves. As if Xinn is responsable to fill that niche they think exists. Did you had any success trying?

Straw man - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[xKrazyx]

I'd see this as just examples. But I agree that more options in general, not just the ones you mentioned but even more than that, should be given to OT owners. This does not mean that you need to be able to sort by all or that all those options need to be shown by default in the list, be creative.


Well, a reliable way is hard to find for anything. Noone can expect someone to do this manually in this kind of "business".
The question is: is it worth it?
Don't understand me wrong, I'd love to see it. Competition is always good.
But is it worth your time and effort to try and do that in the OT Community? If you have fun doing it and wanna do it for personal reasons, go for it! But out of the need might not be advantageous for you personally. It might sound egoistic, but you should always think of yourself and if it's good for you.


I can only repeat what I said earlier. I agree with xinn that reviews are not a good idea. For the simple reason that it's way too much work to maintain. You do not want to have that work. Noone does. Same thing as I mentioned above.
I actually had the idea to do this myself years ago. Actually in a bigger way. Having separate rating from normal users and people trusted with their reviews. Kind of like that game rating website does it nowadays. I can't remember the name right now and it's not worth the effort looking it up.
But a question would also be: Do people look at those rating? Does it really matter? Is it worth the effort?
For games it isn't. People look at it, but statistically that is not what ultimately decided whether they buy a game or not. So would this work for OTS?
Anyone is welcome to try. I actually think it would be great to have it simply to see if it works, if it's worth the effort, if you can trust people more than you'd think (in my experience no). But I'm not gonna ask for it. I cannot expect anyone else to do it if I don't want to.

I find myself using this rating system way more than I ever used otservlist and the online count... if I expect fake user reviews then I head into the reviews and read them for myself.. looking at only the ones users will up vote.

I cant see how this isnt a win over the current system? I would like love to see this implemented in OTland tbh and the advertisement section overhauled.

3 points..
1. user reviews are very easy to fake but tend to be very easy to identify..
2. online count spoofing is very easy to fake but can be easy or very hard to identify given the skill of the developer.
3. otservlist and online count are the reason we have 'dedot' mentality.

need to create a better system favoring good developed OTS and not just the ones who know how to spoof incognito..







In the end I dont think any change is possible until OTS start to remove online count.

 

[Peonso]

No one talked about revamping, have you even read what I've said?

You did, and everybody else here. Your first post on this thread quoting Xinn. You don't see it as a fundamental change, but changing sorting methods to favor custom servers (does Sir Knighter think he is not favored somehow?), that wouldn't please Xinn public nor clients, but only dead server hosters, is a revamp. And one that Xinn has no incentive to pursue, again, it doesn't please his public or clients. You can claim that the way it works is cruel and make them failing a self fulfilling prophecy, and with that I could agree, but still, not a Xinn problem, nor something he should bother with if he doesn't want, he doesn't own them anything.

 

[Night Wolf]

You did, and everybody else here. Your first post on this thread quoting Xinn. You don't see it as a fundamental change, but changing sorting methods to favor custom servers (does Sir Knighter think he is not favored somehow?), that wouldn't please Xinn public nor clients, but only dead server hosters, is a revamp. And one that Xinn has no incentive to pursue, again, it doesn't please his public or clients. You can claim that the way it works is cruel and make them failing a self fulfilling prophecy, and with that I could agree, but still, not a Xinn problem, nor something he should bother with if he doesn't want, he doesn't own them anything.

I never seen anyone in this forum suggest this besides me, it doesn't mean you would need to replace the current system, just allow newer sorting methods and fields to be given for custom servers. You never tried to even discuss this topic, instead you kept in defensive and explicitely told that those who didn't adapt should seek other ways to advertise their server.

Xinn has a product that works for him, for a huge public and for his clients. He is on it for 15 years. He has no competiton. He has tons of data regarding this specific niche no one can even grasp.

@xinn while I fully appreciate that you took time to answer all my post, I can't simply agree with some arguments that you presented.
But it's fine, it's good and democratic to have different point of views and respect those differences and I shall do this as you pointed: It's your business, your decisions. My goal was to shed a light upon my suggestion because I certainly know what I'm talking about and I didn't even had to waste my time telling you this, I could just parse all servers and check how their data deviates to create a similar distributive normal function.
It's obvious to me, and should be to you as well that this ways of working are simply based on fakeable premises. Or do you just expect to rely only on manual checking all servers?

All info he can get from servers is total amount of players and player/level list. For some servers he also receives unique ips count, but that's also just a number in the end. With so little and so fakeable information, how do you say 'tons of data' that 'no one can even grasp'?. It's nonsense...

Post automatically merged: Aug 20, 2020

Also all the information he has are all public, I can just make a crawler to look for port 7173 (if I'm not mistaken) and keep collecting info of servers, If I make normal distributions to match the ones he has (AS I ALREADY DID IN THE PAST), the only way he can detect is through manually checking (if I allow it) or manual reports from players.

 

[Kuzyn]

@Ochman
Why do you even tag me in this context? xD
@LordCompi
There is no 100% clear way to check if online players are real. You mentioned checking the website, for example on our server we do not have anything related to server on www. Everything is shown in client (highscores etc.). So sometimes it will help but in some cases not and I would like to be not banned because of missing info on website.

 

[Peonso]

All info he can get from servers is total amount of players and player/level list. For some servers he also receives unique ips count, but that's also just a number in the end. With so little and so fakeable information, how do you say 'tons of data' that 'no one can even grasp'?. It's nonsense...

I said tons of stuff about you on OtLand already, but for sure never claimed you are dumb, far from it, please put a bit more of effort. The data Xinn collected running his bussiness during 15 years =/= information presented on his website.

 

[Night Wolf]

I said tons of stuff about you on OtLand already, but for sure never claimed you are dumb, far from it, please put a bit more of effort. The data Xinn collected running his bussiness during 15 years =/= information presented on his website.

That's just the historic and I highly doubt this to be a reliable information since lots of servers close and open everyday. Probably he wouldn't be collecting data all along because in the past he didn't even picked the player/level list, just the total amount. So you're arguing based on a supposition....

 

[Peonso]

That's just the historic and I highly doubt this to be a reliable information since lots of servers close and open everyday.

Seems valuable to me, that the default user, from that he probably already picture most used spoofing tatics, and even probably know for how long he can milk a spoofer before banning him.

Probably he wouldn't be collecting data all along because in the past he didn't even picked the player/level list, just the total amount. So you're arguing based on a supposition....

Fair to argue that, but we run into the infinite regress problem. From all that Xinn already show and argued I think it's fair to take that as premise. If you don't agree I'm not digging into that, cut that from my paragraph, I think my point standstill even if you disregard that piece of information.

 

[Saphron]

@topic

yes.

 

[Night Wolf]

I get your point, but what I'm saying is that with one week of data considering crawling every server you already have enough historic to understand how things work.

Well, I'll do some exercises and will provide the necessary evidence to back my claims

 

[Peonso]

I'm not gonna go research whether Nightwolf has commited logical fallacies in other threads, I'm really not that interested, but if you would quote him here I would maybe respond.


You're committing at least one logical fallacy here, argument from ignorance -> "He has tons of data regarding this specific niche no one can even grasp."

Straw man - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Last time I'm wasting my time with you if you keep it low effort like that.

Everytime Night Wolf brought up a credential was to back up a proposal or his point of view, and he did that instead of actually going through why the proposal is good or would work. If you can't check what was already being discussed here in this same topic I don't see the point.

How you can see a falacy where there are no arguments show your lack of interpretation skills. Nor middle paragraph, nor his last sentence are arguments, I'm not backing any statements with it. I was stating facts to give context for the last paragraph, where I develop my argument.

Out of nonwhere people are claiming Xinn should riskly revamp his smoothly on going business without presenting any feasible incentive. Which clearly leads to think it's for their on sake. And I remember the fact that they could do it themselves and that those who tried got no success. How the hell you see a strawman here?