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The state of this community

Ziker

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Hello everyone,

Since this is a discussion forum I'd like to start one. But before I go into details let me share some of the background so you know where I'm coming from.

Most of you here won't remember me, because back in the days I was active mainly on Polish forums (Torg.pl) and Otfans. This has been more than 10 years ago mind you!

What I have seen back then was a vibrant community full of people willing to help others, share and otherwise make improvements so that we could all enjoy OpenTibia - the thing that was meant to offer experience as close to Tibia as it could at the time.

These times seem to be gone, what I observed over the last couple of days of being here is mostly throwing blame, flame wars and complaints, a bunch of spoiled people who are upset by the state of this community. The same people who put it in this state in the first place!

Let me tell you something about open source, contribution-led projects. You actually need to contribute, give back. I suppose it's been long since most of you started, too long to remember how you got where you are now, what made it possible for you to make money from your currently shiny, flawless servers.

It's thanks to those ambitious, skilled people who started this (most of which are no longer here from what I can see) and kept on going with the support of what once was an open and eager to work towards the common goal community.

I genuinely wish I never logged back in here those couple of days ago, because what I have seen since then made me simply sad.

You all have your perspective, opinions, point of views - all of which I respect truly. I can also that if this continues, this community is doomed to fail - you won't have the foundation you benefit from now, because no one will want to contribute anymore and the maintainers of TFS, OTC and other tools will move on too. Think about how much more time, effort and money it's gonna cost you to maintain your servers and keep them up to date with Tibia's features if the community is gone. Without the community the players will be gone too. You may get away with it for now, but one day you may all regret it. It'll no longer be profitable. Tibia is growing (in resources), it's able to increase the pace at which things change. Will you be able to keep up with all the changes to ensure that your servers are still more attractive to people, only with the team you have at your disposal (because everyone else is gone)?

I'm not here to point fingers though, I'm speaking to the community as a whole. I came here a couple of days ago thinking that I benefited from this community greatly in the past and while I wasn't able to contribute as much as I'd want back then, I'm surely able to do it now - 10 years after I once left, bringing in 10 years of commercial software engineering experience. But what I've seen so far threw me off completely. I don't need to prove anything nor I need to contribute to FOSS in order to learn. It was more about the community, people, working together once again.

That being said it feels like it's not the place one would want to put their skills and knowledge to use. It's sad.

These are my few observations, you can do whatever you want with it. Ignore it, throw shit at me, whatever.
 

Blackstone

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I don't agree with the way you view veteran users. We all have different priorities now.
And still at least for me, I am always here to help if someone asks for feedback. I also release maps whenever it is worth sharing.
Many others try to do that and it would be ignorant to not respect the best efforts.

Back then the community was flowing, yes. But it was way more toxic as well. It's just getting inactive.
For me it has all went down even more, when the reaction system was added.
No one ever comments. Double posting is illegal. And people got too lazy to write down their feedback because it's now as easy as pressing "Like".

That has many reasons. We all grew up and do have less time. Others now run their business out of it nowadays.
The forum is not really evolving anymore. Some also staff members lack time and motivation.
Suggestions they do not want to work on are being ignored. Others are ironically executed right away if they like it themselves.
Rules are not enforced in a common way across the platform. Trust has faded over the years and can not be rebuilt without change.
There is also no competitor to Otland. We all know we can't go anywhere else and therefore change stagnates even more.
And even that is okay. I am here for some of the people that are around and really want to contribute something.

A bunch of spoiled people who are upset by the state of this community.
Ironically by starting this thread and your arguments you are just one of the people you complain about.

I genuinely wish I never logged back in here those couple of days ago, because what I have seen since then made me simply sad.
We're all frustrated and with frustration comes depression and less time investment. Additionally we now have families and work fultime.
It's not easy for everyone nowadays but why do you not bring us the change you expect us all to do?

It all applies to you as well. Why would we feel or act differently if you're not willing to contibute anything?

You're right with most of the stuff you mentioned. But individuals can not change anything if some basic conditions are not given.
I think the reason why we are not completely dead by now is the few veteran users who want to move forward.
I wished I could just let go but some of the users around here became part of my life and I will probably always come back as long as they do.
But yeah. It's sad for everyone who has been around for years.
 
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Xikini

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I must be privileged.. cuz I literally never see blame, flame wars or complaints.
I basically only stick around in support/requests and jobs though.

Occasionally come around discussion, resources and chit chat.. but again, still don't see any of what you're describing.

So if any of that exists, it's probably in server gala?

--

As for giving back.. that has definitely slowed down.. on the custom end of the spectrum.

Frankly, it's hard to give back at this point, since past people have already shared all the cool and custom scripts.
Probably the only thing you could create at this point is npc's with quests for people to install or updating old scripts to work for the newest engine.

On the flip end, you can't really contribute and give-back as much anymore since the quality expected of the scripts has reached pinnacle levels.
Back in the day, errors in scripts were expected. Everyone was learning together. Players didn't mind the occasional bugged quest/monster/npc. It was simply funny.

Now though.. you need to release something exceptionally unique, or a giant system without any bugs or flaws.
And on that front, if it's unique, most server owners make it for themselves, to separate themselves from other servers.
---

So yes, the community is more or less fractured, because the main base server is basically as completed as it can get, and acts like real Tibia. Most server owner don't release back to the community, for the reason stated above, and thus, we see no improvements or contributions on the forum because nobody wants to lose their edge in the player market.

On the base engine there are still problems to fix, and you can help that along on github, here, where most updates are.
Progress is still being made, albeit at tortoise speed to the common naive, since most things being fixed are extremely minor, or improvements to the base server code that nobody ever looks at.

Honestly, the main thing we need to work on as a community is probably OtClient. It barely functions, is a right mess, and has hundreds of bugs.
We either need a completely new one, built from the ground up, or some god tier developer to pick up from where it was left off and polish it.

There is an alternative to the OtClient, where someone did fix it up and made a few bug fixes, and is now selling it for like $3000 or something along those lines. It's honestly kind of comical. Good on them for making a profit from the void left by the current OtClient, but god damn, they are a scumbag for doing so.

--

Not sure why I rambled on for so long, since we get 1-2 of these threads monthly. xD
Take it or leave it, that's my general consensus of the forum state.
 
OP
Z

Ziker

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I don't agree with the way you view veteran users. We all have different priorities now.
And still at least for me, I am always here to help if someone asks for feedback. I also release maps whenever it is worth sharing.
Many others try to do that and it would be ignorant to not respect the best efforts.
I meant no disrespect to anyone who actually tries their best, there are obviously people who still work in the spirit of openness and sharing. What's troubling me is the proportions between people who share and those who do everything for their own gain.
That has many reasons. We all grew up and do have less time. Others now run their business out of it nowadays.
Absolutely correct, and so did I. I'm simply saying that if you decide to join an open (open source) community you shall consider giving back too. A few seems to do, while others just come to get what they need (knowledge, software) and either leave without leaving something for those after them or they stick around and keep taking more and more, expecting more and more.
Ironically by starting this thread and your arguments you are just one of the people you complain about.
But am I really? Have you seen me wandering around the forum, asking people when the next version of TFS is going to be released and why so late? I don't expect anyone to do anything. And I can see why people do that - they're frustrated, rightly so. Tools and projects aren't moving forward fast enough. But that's on people who're sitting there, waiting for things to be given to them on a silver platter and those who improve things but refuse to share their work. That leaves the handful of people who actually contribute to lose the sense of community and their motivation.
It all applies to you as well. Why would we feel or act differently if you're not willing to contibute anything?
For once I'm not part of this community. I came here in hopes that I could re-join it and contribute, but what I've seen so far isn't encouraging at all.

In general I appreciate your post, it'd all be true if I were part of this community. Perhaps it's unfair of me to come in and snoop around with that sort of attitude. Perhaps it's not my place to say all these words, but I felt compelled to do so regardless. At least to point out what I feel is wrong here and where it's going and maybe give some people something to think about. It's just that, a sign of warning from someone who's been in different FOSS communities and seen then fall (lost of maintainers, switching over to non-commercial, non-permissive licenses or closed-source projects) because people wouldn't contribute back.

---
So if any of that exists, it's probably in server gala?
Not really, I haven't looked there to be honest. I did go through discussions forums and TFS development.
Now though.. you need to release something exceptionally unique, or a giant system without any bugs or flaws.
And on that front, if it's unique, most server owners make it for themselves, to separate themselves from other servers.
Not really looking for unique, if anyone wants to diverge from Tibia experience it's their choice. If they're happy to share it it's even better. But I have seen many different complaints about things in TFS not working (haven't looked at OTC, but if it's at 10.98 protocol then that's a big problem?) as they should, in comparison to Tibia. I think there is plenty of room for improvements, both in terms of gameplay / behaviour as well as performance.
Take it or leave it, that's my general consensus of the forum state.
I wish these choices were valid, but in my opinion there's nothing to take as things stand - there isn't an open community here.
 

Xikini

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Not really, I haven't looked there to be honest. I did go through discussions forums and TFS development.

Not really looking for unique, if anyone wants to diverge from Tibia experience it's their choice. If they're happy to share it it's even better. But I have seen many different complaints about things in TFS not working (haven't looked at OTC, but if it's at 10.98 protocol then that's a big problem?) as they should, in comparison to Tibia. I think there is plenty of room for improvements, both in terms of gameplay / behaviour as well as performance.

I wish these choices were valid, but in my opinion there's nothing to take as things stand - there isn't an open community here.
TFS 1.3 and OtLands branch of OTC are both at 10.98, last I looked.

As far as the complaints about behaviour and game-play.. can you link me to some of these posts?
I'm literally ignorant to this, since I just spend my time helping people as a hobby and never play.

-- Edit

Was sent the links via pm.
Thanks. 👍
 
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Saphron

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I feel the same, I dont even post much anymore. Its not that the people are toxic now, people are always toxic but he way rules are enforced on Otland encourages such attidue.

At least thats my opinion.

Also:
Servers that clearly are stealing work from other servers or games can be advertised here and you cannot even mention that the sprites seen are you own property because the post will be deleted and you will be warned. Its not worth to share anymore (sprites especially) because people dont give a shit about your work, nor do the moderators. You will not be on any credits, no one will know its yours. Thats why I dont share anything anymore and put all of my effort into Medivia. And most spriters did the same, they simply abandoned this forum and focused on their main projects. Thats why you rarely see anything new popping up in showoff from those "best" spriters around.
 
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ralke

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There's problems on author rights, like @Saphron said, but it is counterproductive since in general there are always tools such as MapTrackers, sprite editors, in development, that seek to "hack" the work of some. And if anyone can use them, they surely will. But I agree, definitly spriting forum has become more a learning forum that a sharing one.

Otherwise. I haven't seen other OTserver community that has a better support forum than otland (guess it is the most viewed sub-forum) and that's the reason I feel OTland is a solid forum.

Xikini said:
I must be privileged.. cuz I literally never see blame, flame wars or complaints.
Agreed with this. Only saw some discussions about TFS future and OTclient conflicts, but as I said, OTland as a supporting forum is a 10/10, maybe they will stuck in development but that's not a reason to say the community is dead. It is necessary to value the effort made by those who are in charge of developing.

Ziker said:
For once I'm not part of this community. I came here in hopes that I could re-join it and contribute, but what I've seen so far isn't encouraging at all.
Is simple, if you come here to learn, you will feel unconditionally motivated to retribute once you have learned. If you come to help develop, you surely be appreciated by the community. My opinion is that the most encouraging thing, in the end, is to see how the community learns and grows with your contributions. Do not forget that this community is in a constant learning process, those who today do not know how to program, may be the ones who develop in the future, who knows?

Blackstone said:
That has many reasons. We all grew up and do have less time. Others now run their business out of it nowadays.
Agreed. The people I have seen the most play Tibia in my country, Chile, are already over 30 years old, I played since I was little and so I ended up coming to OTland.

Ziker said:
I wish these choices were valid, but in my opinion there's nothing to take as things stand - there isn't an open community here.
The 90% of the PM I receive in the forum are from young people who do not know anything about LUA or basic configurations, everyone ends up grateful when explaining how simple their solutions are. Of course, I started the same and if today I can help people from OTland it is thanks to the good support work that is carried out in the forum.

Regards!
 
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Peonso

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OP says he is not here to point fingers but do it anyway, then say he doesn't want to help. At least he is not ingenous to say he has some magic solution. Amazing and mindblowing analysis, probably high IQ.
 
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oen432

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I Dont Season 8 GIF by Friends
 

Saphron

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yawns

These threads are getting boring. To be honest.

It's 2021, not 2010. At least your not asking the community to pool for money, I got to give you that.

Haha yeah its funny considering that people are actually leaving, not contributing and just lurking, checking out some threads from time to time leaving a like.

I have been active member for many many years, helped tons of spriters and aided many projects. Its important to talk about such things because in near future this community may collapse, for sure now its divided, I wonder what will come next.
 

pink_panther

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I feel like the only people complaining about the "state" are the one that just want to be able to download peoples hard work without having to learn anything :|

If you want to LEARN how to do things, more than happy to help.

If you're just asking people to give you their distros and custom content without wanting to learn anything.... <insert fart noise here>
 
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Peroxide

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For me it has all went down even more, when the reaction system was added.
Double posting is illegal. And people got too lazy to write down their feedback because it's now as easy as pressing "Like".

This, bro. This hits me, I remember the day when people would comment over a map piece or something for a decent amount of posts. It was genuinely nice to see feedback and what people thought of the map etc. Now you don't get any feedback and all you're told is 'x user reacted to your post with like' It's one of the reasons I stepped back from mapping.

@Ziker I agree with you in the fact that the community is not what it once was and Blackstone is 100% correct, I hope you don't think this about the veteran users who have actually stayed through the decade and are still here today, I am one of them and it's a sad thing that's happened but such is life. People move on and people get new priorities, I have no doubt some of the people who were here are parents now, way too busy with their children's lives to worry about "giving back" to a next to dead community, I myself am way too focused on work and real life to devote so much time to Open-Tibia. I do hope one day it makes a massive U-turn and is booming again, perhaps, hopefully.

When it comes to releasing content I tend to stay away from that because of how many leechers there are that don't give back so perhaps I'm part of the problem when it comes to that side of things
 

strutZ

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For me its more a motivation thing... I don't have a server anymore so I'm not developing things to share I try to help when i have time outside of work but with a family to balance as well its not really possible.

When i can release stuff again i certainly will.
 
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