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The state of this community

OP
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yawns

These threads are getting boring. To be honest.

It's 2021, not 2010. At least your not asking the community to pool for money, I got to give you that.
I appreciate your comment, I can only imagine how long you had to deal with people posting things like mine. Please accept my apologies for your inconvenience! As for money, it's a rather delicate topic, but quite the contrary - I'd love to see people contribute more for the sake of the sense of community rather than seeking financial gratification. But that's just me, speaking with a perspective where money from OT - believe me or not - is something I couldn't care less about.

I'd love to see this community thrive, but you're right, it's not 2010 anymore and perhaps the sense of nostalgia took over when I wrote my post.
OP says he is not here to point fingers but do it anyway, then say he doesn't want to help. At least he is not ingenous to say he has some magic solution. Amazing and mindblowing analysis, probably high IQ. That the sort of retard we need here.
Please fear not, my IQ is just fine, so are my analytical skills. But I appreciate your concern pal, thanks!

As for the real issue, I didn't point a finger at any single person, merely stated my opinion about this community. Which I feel entitled to given that at least some of the people here (who moved from other boards and communities) benefited from the work I've done in the past too. And don't get me wrong, I see nothing wrong with that, I've made my contributions exactly for the benefit of others, except I didn't imagine so many of these people actually starting to ignore the community the moment they became competent enough and didn't need other's help anymore. This is simply sad, but something to come to terms with I suppose.
I feel like the only people complaining about the "state" are the one that just want to be able to download peoples hard work without having to learn anything :|

If you want to LEARN how to do things, more than happy to help.

If you're just asking people to give you their distros and custom content without wanting to learn anything.... <insert fart noise here>
I'm not quite sure how to interpret this post. But I'm going to assume that you have read the thread along with all my replies carefully and you're referring to the general complaints:

You're right, people who complain about where this community is are those who can't do things themselves. I think there are two main reasons for that:
  • some of them came here with a promise of an open community, willing to help and show them the ways (from the feedback I've seen so far it seems like they have all the help in the Support forums, kudos to those who actually help them)
  • some feel entitled to demand things from the community, because they're not interested in digging in, learning and they came here with an idea that if so many people host their own servers and make plenty of money it can't be that hard. So they voice their frustration, because in reality it's not easy and requires hell of an effort, even if you have all the pieces readily available

But in case you didn't read carefully and you're referring to myself then let me assure you: I'm after no distros nor content here, I've learnt enough back in the days and even more during my professional career to not need any help if I ever wanted to have my very own server. I never did though nor I do now, unless I was asked to help someone with a project I felt excited about. And that would only be for the sense of accomplishment and not some benefits.

@Peroxide That's right on point and like I said already - I didn't mean to offend anyone who actually contributes or who contributed a lot in the past and stopped for the reasons you just named. I agree with you completely and this is pretty much what I wanted to say in my initial post (other than stating the obvious and pushing people to think about it and perhaps offer viable solutions?). People genuinely interested in helping the community were forced to stop sharing, because other people who COULD contribute are more interested in their own gain. And I don't blame you nor anyone who stopped contributing, I'm completely on your side. This is exactly the reason why I decided not to start contributing after what I've seen and heard. I'm with you on that and just like you I hope to see it blooming once again in the future.
 
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xsaint

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For me its more a motivation thing... I don't have a server anymore so I'm not developing things to share I try to help when i have time outside of work but with a family to balance as well its not really possible.

When i can release stuff again i certainly will.

Should join me over at Viserion. :')

On topic though; I agree with most of what you said. I feel the mapping community here while it may be smaller now days it does give back a lot, there are loads of fully completed maps, pieces that are insanely detailed for free, theres mapping discords with download sections. But I have no real say into the other side of Otland, I've just heard the programming side is very focused on charging for work and everyone want want wanting.
 

Ascuas Funkeln

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Same as @Xikini, i spend near 100% time on Otland in support section and i dont see this problems, ofc there are more lurkers than contributors but this is normal even in real life, there are many threads like this one :|
You go with the times or you drown with dreams and nostalgia, simple.
And "back then those were the days". No, the times for young people are the same as for us when we were young, we are old and these feelings are really nice memories from youth.~The Bitch Nostalgia...
 

Nekiro

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What I can say. Time is money, you either have it both or none, so you spend the first to get the second. As you can't live without the second even if you have the first. This sums up why "veterans" don't contribute that much anymore, we are not kids that live under parents roof.

Openly saying you wont contribute, because you wont is not nice and helping either. Stop complaining, start doing, help the community grow instead of putting it down even more with threads like these, this is not helping at all. If you claim you have, so much experience in programming or similar then utilize it and help the community move forward, TFS needs contributors and contributors aren't paid they are donating their time to benefit whole even if 2/3 is only taking taking and never giving back.

You wasted a noticeable amount of time to write this and reply to this, you could spend this time on better things, like helping in support board or coding and releasing things or even hopefully donating to our wiki, which isn't complete. I'm not sure what you would like this community to be nowadays to stop feeling "discouraged (?)" to contribute, if you wont take the step, nothing will ever change and this applies to every person thinking this way.
 

pink_panther

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There's a difference between helping people learn, and lazy people just expecting YOU to do their coding.

An "open source" community doesnt entitle you to other peoples custom work. It's still very open, there are more than enough resources to help you get started and to help you learn.

If learning is something you dont want to do, you're the problem, not the community.

Open Source also doesn't mean you just download 1 zip file, extract it and have a full running server, web site, etc. Making this thread once a month just to whinge isn't helping anyone do anything.

Also, don't just complain that this place isn't the same as it was 12 years ago. No place is, that's a ridiculous expectation.
 
OP
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What I can say. Time is money, you either have it both or none, so you spend the first to get the second. As you can't live without the second even if you have the first. This sums up why "veterans" don't contribute that much anymore, we are not kids that live under parents roof.
I appreciate your point of view, I really do. However, other replies, as well as my personal experience, add to that. I think a significant factor is lack of reward (by which I mean the growth and advances of the community in terms of contributors, shared content, etc. - all these seem to be in decline, at least compared to what I've seen before). You're definitely right that money & time is one of the reasons, but this is not the one you can mitigate in viable way, whereas being more open to giving back is something that can be changed. And I'm not referring to you personally, in my short time here I managed to get a grasp of your admirable efforts.

Openly saying you wont contribute, because you wont is not nice and helping either. Stop complaining, start doing, help the community grow instead of putting it down even more with threads like these, this is not helping at all. If you claim you have, so much experience in programming or similar then utilize it and help the community move forward, TFS needs contributors and contributors aren't paid they are donating their time to benefit whole even if 2/3 is only taking taking and never giving back.
This is nowhere near what I said. I said I won't contribute, because this community seem to be falling due to the split between the few who contribute, the majority that has not enough knowledge / skills to contribute (yet) and those in-between who don't seem to care about the other two groups and simply want to take without giving back (that 2/3 you mentioned). It's just not a healthy community and not one you want to get yourself into, wouldn't you agree?

If I had a solution that would make the 2/3 reconsider their stance without the harm for "newbies" I'd give it up straight away. I do not and my intention was to start a conversation on how this can be changed moving forward. Instead I inadvertently triggered another discussion which does make me sad. I'd rather focus on how could the leaders of this community encourage the ones who are just here for their own benefit to change their thinking and consider the fact that this is the community that feeds them, that it's in their best interest to nurture it and that a strong, vibrant community is what will keep them afloat.

I'm aware that contributors and maintainers aren't paid. This is the idea behind open source. Even though I don't have much time to spare myself (family, children, work) I'd be happy to contribute to a healthy project and I'll risk saying that I believe there are more people just like me out there. They either never voiced their opinions or gave up after seeing what I saw. Regardless, I'll try to dedicate some time to look at the most pressing issues. Since you're knees deep in it, what would you say that is?

You wasted a noticeable amount of time to write this and reply to this, you could spend this time on better things, like helping in support board or coding and releasing things or even hopefully donating to our wiki, which isn't complete. I'm not sure what you would like this community to be nowadays to stop feeling "discouraged (?)" to contribute, if you wont take the step, nothing will ever change and this applies to every person thinking this way.
You're right about that. I could have spent this time on better things. Like helping in support board or cooking a nice meal. What would I like it to be? Well: open, undivided, respectful, transparent. That'd definitely stop me from feeling discouraged. Rather than talking about why TFS, OTC and other tools are in the state they're in (I never raised it here, since I can see exactly why) I'd like to see discussions on how the change can be influenced. I obviously have no influence, but I believe people who maintain and heavily contribute do. Because if they're gone this train is most likely to stop. I'd try to talk to see whether things can get better by triggering a mentality shift in some.

There's a difference between helping people learn, and lazy people just expecting YOU to do their coding.

An "open source" community doesnt entitle you to other peoples custom work. It's still very open, there are more than enough resources to help you get started and to help you learn.

If learning is something you dont want to do, you're the problem, not the community.

Open Source also doesn't mean you just download 1 zip file, extract it and have a full running server, web site, etc. Making this thread once a month just to whinge isn't helping anyone do anything.

Also, don't just complain that this place isn't the same as it was 12 years ago. No place is, that's a ridiculous expectation.
I still have no idea who / what you're referring to, so I'll leave it as is.
 

Ramirow

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I would like to share my thoughts on this subject, since I feel I could've been more active based on the years I have on this forum.
Most people probably don't even recognize me and that's simply because I don't socialize much, and I don't post much either.

I started using this forum when I was a kid basically, by downloading things and copy-pasting scripts shared without even posting a single word in the thread, with time I started learning a couple of things but never made a script worth sharing, even to this day my contributions are basic at best in terms of original content. Even if I didn't post something, those people works made me learn a lot, I never studied programming, never wanted and probably never will as I think it's not something I can do.

It takes time away, time not many people has (I'm not a kid anymore) and if they do, maybe they would like to do something else. Everyone's life is completely different now than 10 years ago and I think everyone here will agree with that.

The community around here is great, never seen those flame wars you talk about, what I do think is that original content has been slowly dissapearing, but it may be just because of time constrains or lack of motivation. On that matter, when you do post something, leechers will always be there, I was one, that doesn't mean those people in the future won't contribute at least a tiny bit, I was a leecher out of ignorance as I didn't understand a single thing about computers let alone Lua or C++ (and even couldn't speak much english).

As a final note, it may seem this topic is about people who contribute/people who don't but it's more than just black and white sometimes.
Cheers.
 

Silba

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Again we are reminded that this community is a toxic and dying cesspool. Following exactly the same trajectory as every other community and hobby, except there's not enough fresh meat to offset the decline. Every time a thread like this gets posted the comments turn more and more potential fresh meat away and reminds the 'good' people why they left/became inactive in the first place.

The barrier of entry feels like it's the highest it's ever been and it probably is too, support is literally full of non answered questions, mostly about the same things because "google it bro" or "search bro". Yet when you search or "google it" you find the same 500 threads with no answers and it actually takes a considerable amount of effort, sometimes hours of digging through posts to find an answer that someone could've posted but chose not to in about 15 seconds.
I've came to realise that this community is quite blind(clearly evident by many comments in this thread), which is actually very normal and as above this is usually offset with new people coming in and bringing a fresh point of view and new ideas and content, unfortunately that is not the case here right now.

If you are in a position to contribute, you should. Contributions help other people contribute, it gives them confidence at the very least.
 

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This community is thriving, alot of support is being given in support board, lots of servers are launched on a weekly basis, lots of contribution is being made on github. There are several people (me included) who code and contribute and help for free. (I also spend some money for this community).

I wonder if people are to blind to see that? TFS development is now almost back to 2015 pace for the first time since 2015... We are at 39 pull requests (25 of which are merged) last 30 days. Lots of support threads are solved here, lots of scripts requests are being solved.

I don't know about you, but I am looking forward to helping out other people, coding and contributing for the community for the next decade as well. And as long as there is a couple other people like me, this community won't die.

Even if 95% is just leechers, I'll be happily coding for the community, farming likes, goodwill and best answers. I know I'm not the only one, look at the awesome people who answer support board, look at the awesome people who submits and review pull requests. This is the community, it is not toxic or dying.

The rest is just an audience, and that is fine as well. (It would be good if they could be a little less toxic though, but most of them are not. You are just hearing those who screams the loudest).

You don't have to do anything, but at least for me, a like goes a long way. :)
 

Levi999x

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This community is thriving, alot of support is being given in support board, lots of servers are launched on a weekly basis, lots of contribution is being made on github. There are several people (me included) who code and contribute and help for free. (I also spend some money for this community).

I wonder if people are to blind to see that? TFS development is now almost back to 2015 pace for the first time since 2015... We are at 39 pull requests (25 of which are merged) last 30 days. Lots of support threads are solved here, lots of scripts requests are being solved.

I don't know about you, but I am looking forward to helping out other people, coding and contributing for the community for the next decade as well. And as long as there is a couple other people like me, this community won't die.

Even if 95% is just leechers, I'll be happily coding for the community, farming likes, goodwill and best answers. I know I'm not the only one, look at the awesome people who answer support board, look at the awesome people who submits and review pull requests. This is the community, it is not toxic or dying.

The rest is just an audience, and that is fine as well. (It would be good if they could be a little less toxic though, but most of them are not. You are just hearing those who screams the loudest).

You don't have to do anything, but at least for me, a like goes a long way. :)

Well said!
I try to help as much as possible and I like that
ofc there are many leechers but thats fine
everyone used to be a leecher in some way :D
have a great day OTLand and lets go for another 10 years of open tibia
 
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@Nekiro and @Znote have already said. When possible, contribute!
I don't have much exp in cpp/lua. But when possible, I am solving some problems on git, or giving some suggestions.
 
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Ranzar

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thing is, for me, and i guess for a lot of people, the entry bar is kinda high (?) if you don't have some sort of background, i'd love to contribute to otclient and make it better and force tfs to advance, but i don't understand anything at all, either otclient or tfs itself, so i just end up getting frustrated and do nothing, even lua is giving me trouble
 

Infernum

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even lua is giving me trouble

both are not complete, but good enough to get started with the scripting side of tfs if you actively want to learn
 

Ranzar

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both are not complete, but good enough to get started with the scripting side of tfs if you actively want to learn
yep, i read through them already, i also use tfs' wiki on github, but still a lot of it isn't filled and i get lost
the other day i was experimenting with npcs and their responses trying to have all their voices in an array and i had 0 luck, it just didn't work and i don't understand why, that's what gets me frustrated, i don't know if i'm doing it wrong, if it's just no possible, etc but i don't have a reference or something to help
 

Infernum

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yep, i read through them already, i also use tfs' wiki on github, but still a lot of it isn't filled and i get lost
the other day i was experimenting with npcs and their responses trying to have all their voices in an array and i had 0 luck, it just didn't work and i don't understand why, that's what gets me frustrated, i don't know if i'm doing it wrong, if it's just no possible, etc but i don't have a reference or something to help
that's what the support board is for
just don't use it to be a help vampire asking people to write code for you, instead, ask HOW to do things and WHY things work the way they do
you'll learn in no time doing that
 

Ranzar

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i think there's still a big problem with documentation, that i would love to help fix if i knew how to, i really want to get there eventually, but i'm not a fast learner when it comes to programming
 

xKrazyx

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This community is thriving, alot of support is being given in support board, lots of servers are launched on a weekly basis, lots of contribution is being made on github. There are several people (me included) who code and contribute and help for free. (I also spend some money for this community).

I wonder if people are to blind to see that? TFS development is now almost back to 2015 pace for the first time since 2015... We are at 39 pull requests (25 of which are merged) last 30 days. Lots of support threads are solved here, lots of scripts requests are being solved.

I don't know about you, but I am looking forward to helping out other people, coding and contributing for the community for the next decade as well. And as long as there is a couple other people like me, this community won't die.

Even if 95% is just leechers, I'll be happily coding for the community, farming likes, goodwill and best answers. I know I'm not the only one, look at the awesome people who answer support board, look at the awesome people who submits and review pull requests. This is the community, it is not toxic or dying.

The rest is just an audience, and that is fine as well. (It would be good if they could be a little less toxic though, but most of them are not. You are just hearing those who screams the loudest).

You don't have to do anything, but at least for me, a like goes a long way. :)
I agree with Znote

IMO there are different issues I think need to be resolved here.. its not just as simple as people are working now and have families.

Biggest issue with OTS currently have come about IMO due to the online list and otservlist. (which is slowly going away as less servers use otservlist)
ot lists and the online count have created an environment where if playersonline < 100, or even < 500, players arent going to join your server, because thats just the mentality that has developed over the years.. Compounded by the issue Xinn picks and chooses who he bans based on how hard he wants to actually research. Look at how long Marcus was using otservlist lol I remember a time you didnt care how many players were on a server back during OTFans, but granted there were more people.

I call this 'dead ot mentality'. You could have the best server on planet earth, but if you dont have an online count by means of advertising, or you do not spoof, youre not going to get the players. Its totally possible for a server to still make it, however, youre going against servers that are spoofing 1000+ chars.. so youre going to have to develop an infrastructure that supports a lot of MCs to boost your player count, or join the same deal other servers are doing ..which not everyone knows how to do(spoof)..Not everyone has the money for advert.. ive seen too many GREAT servers die to this over the years...
(im not sure why so many tiptoe around this conversation ^ xD)

OTS as a whole should start to remove the Online List. Many RPG's do not have online counts for a reason.. It would create for a much better environment where servers are known for their content, not the online count. Try to find big name RPGs that release an online list like tibia... not going to find many.

Then you have the different communities within OTLAND
1. 8.6 crew
2. latest tibia updates crew 10.9+
3. old school crew 7.4-8.0

Im apart of number 3.. I will probably never do any sort of development that isnt either towards my own custom server, or 7.4-7.72. Why? Because I only have so much time, same for a lot of others here im sure, which is why less development has been public on an engine that isnt catered for them.

I also think the rules here on OTLand are enforced without much consistency among different board moderators. I dont have anything against staff here whatsoever and appreciate them, thats just my opinion based on experience and observation.

3 big issues that have always been in the back of my mind on this site since 2016...

1. The Online List + Otservlist kills servers (Less servers use it now so its less of a big deal, but 'dead ot' mentality still remains due to the online list)
2. The community is split between different versions (7.4, and 8.6+)
3. Custom Stable Client (This is being solved thanks to Kondra and other devs)

If the first two are solved, I think you would see a much better environment around here.

I think creating 3 official repositories.. 1 for 10.9+, 1 for 8.6, and one for 7.72 ... or 2... 1 for 7.4-7.72, 1 for 8.6+ would go a long way
If there was an official 7.4-7.72 repo, you better believe id help with it. I dont help now with the official repo cause I frankly dont give a shit about tibia 8.7+.

@Blackstone I gravitated towards your nice response, I think some of that could be explained by ^.
I hope I gave somewhat of a constructive response xD
 
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SCREECH

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Also:
Servers that clearly are stealing work from other servers or games can be advertised here and you cannot even mention that the sprites seen are you own property because the post will be deleted and you will be warned. Its not worth to share anymore (sprites especially) because people dont give a shit about your work, nor do the moderators. You will not be on any credits, no one will know its yours. Thats why I dont share anything anymore and put all of my effort into Medivia. And most spriters did the same, they simply abandoned this forum and focused on their main projects. Thats why you rarely see anything new popping up in showoff from those "best" spriters around.

Not true for everyone.

I was slammed for using Medivia/Zezenia sprites INSTANTLY when I posted early concept work for my project, due to being scammed by the widely known Lexarr. At the time of posting those screenshots (now deleted), I wasn't aware of Zezenia or Medevia's existence at all, never heard of em, so it was a super big surprise getting flooded by DMs and PMs on Discord from the likes of Mark Wolf n other known people, calling me a thief etc and slamming my thread.

It was quickly redacted, as I removed the sprites from our threads etc as well because it's not like I WANTED to use any stolen stuff, so the air was cleared and the 7 people who were attacking me (including their staff who tried to even call some public stuff their own and I shot them down instantly) rightly f'd off and apologized.

NONE of those people's messaged on my thread got deleted, nor did any of them get warned. Which is fine, because all they were doing was reacting to someone seemingly stealing their work, but still goes to prove that the Mods are still SOMEWHAT actively good at keeping things................................idk. Something.
 

Znote

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I will probably never do any sort of development that isnt either towards my own custom server, or 7.4-7.72. Why? Because I only have so much time, same for a lot of others here im sure, which is why less development has been public on an engine that isnt catered for them.
If I would host a retro server, I would definitely be interested in a downported version of TFS, that has cool stuff like Revscriptsys and other engine features. No matter which protocol, I'm sure stuff like proper guildhall support, Asynchronous HTTP API with lua bindings, Parse packet in Lua, yelling behavior would be beneficial, along with tons of other stuff we have in our pending pull request queue.

If I was you, I would spin up a test server and help review and test pull requests, so it gets merged, so it later can be downported and adapted to the server you are interested in. Even if the main repo is not specifically targeted for your use-case, it will benefit you in the end. (unless you are forcing yourself to be stuck on an old obsolete distribution).

if there are pull requests you arent interested in (like protocol specific ones), then just ignore them, and help solve the ones you do care about. The advantage of open source is the ripple effect, once code gets released, it can be ported and adapted to specific use-cases, and will in the end benefit you more than one might think.

I think creating 3 official repositories.. 1 for 10.9+, 1 for 8.6, and one for 7.72 ... or 2... 1 for 7.4-7.72, 1 for 8.6+ would go a long way
If there was an official 7.4-7.72 repo, you better believe id help with it. I dont help now with the official repo cause I frankly dont give a shit about tibia 8.7+.

This would just make things slower and harder for us developers. We would need more testers, and developers who are actually interested in those protocols. Old protocol developers come and go, and when they do they tend to make a downport. Nostalrius has done that, Nekiro has done that. But most of otland dev team isn't interested in maintaining 3 separate repos.

But nothing is stopping you from doing that. And I will happily encourage anyone to set up and maintain a downported version of TFS, especially when done properly. @Nekiro did this, but I imagine it is challenging to constantly keep up with a master branch. I'm sure when TFS 1.4 is released, people are going to downport it, so the more updates you can contribute to TFS now, the more features will be available when the next big downport happens.

Nekiro maintained a clean downport of 7.72 and 8.6 actively for 4 months, any retro dev could have forked and continued this. I guess they were too busy keeping their modifications private and let it die. I think perhaps this is a challenge within the retro community, many devs here argue with each other and compete against each other when what they should be doing is collaborating (for the sake of their dev scene).

But its not too late, 1.4 will most likely bring a new attempt at a retro repo. It won't be official, but it will probably be recommended for that scene.

But unless retro developers change their mindset and embrace the open source, its going to become another short period one-shot that dwindles into obsolescence. (Then again, obsolescene is kindof the charm for retro devs? :p)
 
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