Tibiantis - reversed old Tibia project - discussion thread

[kay]

Did I say tibianic had it recently...? I said tibianic already did what you are proposing.

They did not. All they did was removing quests. But that couldn't change the fact most of the EQ-items were useless (even more useless than originally), so there was zero demand anyway. That's not the same. Not to mention Tibianic was x2 exp (until 70 lvl afair) and double regen, so overall gameplay was much faster.
Plus it was in the time Tibianic was in very early development stage, with alot of bugs that forced restarts, and few people playing. Should they tried that later when starting x1 server (Spectrum or Destiny) it could have been way different.

We are talking abt ur version, right? Where ank wont exist? moot point.

I was referring to why team hunts are pointless in modern "7.4".

I really think you are overestimating how much people actually team hunted. The only vocation in that setup that gains from teamhunts is knights. Once you had ur EQ it was back to regular play. Most smart knights just let the non powergamers loot the items while they pg'd elsewhere.

Because in that setup only knights need them (for weapons). That's what I'm saying
If those loot items were useful for other vocations as well, they would have hunted for them more.

That forugla spot wasnt around at this point. This was pre doyle, pre any update tibianic.

"Until more ppl got levels do to all those quests" --- Quests didnt have rewards on this version. Not sure why you put this in lol

I was speaking about Spectrum world here. Quests did exist, and it was post-doyle.

Even with the new advantage of you buffing armor, it still wont be an issue. Yes, your armor would be better than the tibianic meaning less possible waste etc. Except the issue is, skilling fixed that same issue. Weather you took 12 dmg from a guard using golden armor, or 15 using a dsm, that 3 hp isnt enuf to make a diff. Even if it was closer to 5 instead of 15 (closer to ur new values) it has the exact same impact, nothing.

Secondly,nobody is going to use their armor in pvp unless its GAME CHANGING dmg reduction. An additional 5-10 dmg isnt gonna change ur survival. Your gonna say "But if 10 ppl sd u, thats 50-100 dmg less". Yep, this is true but that doesnt take into account the RNG of the sd dmg itself and their spell dmg range which generally,is a much bigger and wider range than an increase of 6-7 armor.

With the new armor values the difference between plate armor, plate legs, steel helmet, scarf vs MPA, g-legs, demon helmet, steel boots is 3-40 (21.5 on average). I wouldn't say that's nothing.
Sure it has a great drawback of using best eq in fights but burst 50 + SD 250 vs burst 30 + SD 230? Looks pretty rewarding to me.
Yesterday when people logged in our test server, some guys even complained about it being OP after having tested bolts/melee damage on full-set.
I don't think it's OP, taking all other factors into accout, but rewarding and worth a consideration - yes.

 

[Xyvero]

They did not. All they did was removing quests. But that couldn't change the fact most of the EQ-items were useless (even more useless than originally), so there was zero demand anyway. That's not the same. Not to mention Tibianic was x2 exp (until 70 lvl afair) and double regen, so overall gameplay was much faster.

Because in that setup only knights need them (for weapons). That's what I'm saying
If those loot items were useful for other vocations as well, they would have hunted for them more.

Items only benefit knights. There are no eq items that are truly "worth it" for mages or paladins. Especially paladins. If you intend to put in custom items,then I cant have an opinion cuz idk what your idea would be. Even the blue robe is worthless if you know how to powergame and you dont kite like a retard.

If you arent putting in custom items, my point remains. Im not hating on the idea, I just dont think its going to be as impactful as you do.

With the new armor values the difference between plate armor, plate legs, steel helmet, scarf vs MPA, g-legs, demon helmet, steel boots is 3-40 (21.5 on average). I wouldn't say that's nothing.
Sure it has a great drawback of using best eq in fights but burst 50 + SD 250 vs burst 30 + SD 230?
Yesterday when people logged in our test server, some guys even complained about it being OP after having tested bolts/melee damage on full-set.

With using good equipment, means using AOL. Becomes a potential 100k loss instead of 50k, and it makes most ppl afraid to take rs and therefore less likely to atk with the goal of killing the player and therefore less helpful in pvp. Ppl ar ealways scared of RS. Another reason I never ever used any good eq in any serv on war. Makes no sense, even if the dmg were to be as you are saying, its not worth it. Especially if you can make the server clear of Mcs, bots, etc. If cash always mattered then there would never be anybody rich enough to truly afford aol and bless consistently in a good war where both sides are dieing.

 

[kay]

With using good equipment, means using AOL. Becomes a potential 100k loss instead of 50k, and it makes most ppl afraid to take rs and therefore less likely to atk with the goal of killing the player and therefore less helpful in pvp. Ppl ar ealways scared of RS. Another reason I never ever used any good eq in any serv on war. Makes no sense, even if the dmg were to be as you are saying, its not worth it. Especially if you can make the server clear of Mcs, bots, etc. If cash always mattered then there would never be anybody rich enough to truly afford aol and bless consistently in a good war where both sides are dieing.

At this point your war backpack is often of aol value (or close to) anyway.

And sure it has a drawback, as I said. If something is to give an advantage it must have a drawback as well.
Still nobody forces you to use better items. You can play your way, while someone else will go to war with the best gear and receive visibly less damage thanks to that. Simple as that.
Nowhere I claimed those changes will make everyone care about equipment. It is meant to be rewarding for those who do. As opposed to original where they don't benefit from it nearly nothing. Now it becomes more of one's own preferences dilemma and that was the point.

 

[Paszq]

Hey @kay , as @Xyvero mentioned it, are you going to change equipment progression of paladins and mages?

Because before Pits of Inferno update (IIRC) all you had as a paladin was a crossbow, and all other upgrades were capacity-based. You weren't getting hit most of the time if played correctly, so you basically maxed out around level 15 when you got a scale armor and a crossbow. And then you spent your time on Dwarf Guards until level 60.

I am sure you are aware of this, so I am wondering what solution you've got!

 

[Xyvero]

At this point your war backpack is often of aol value (or close to) anyway.

backpack has to be worth more than 50k for it to make sense to use it. And still, even more so on this type of lowrate, there wont be uber expensive bps till lv 150+ wars. You know that as well as I do. And since you use supplies as the battle goes on, your backpack is degrading meaning you are only using the aol for your boh or eq. Not your bp.

And sure it has a drawback, as I said. If something is to give an advantage it must have a drawback as well.
Still nobody forces you to use better items. You can play your way, while someone else will go to war with the best gear and receive visibly less damage thanks to that. Simple as that.
Nowhere I claimed those changes will make everyone care about equipment. It is meant to be rewarding for those who do. As opposed to original where they don't benefit from it nearly nothing. Now it becomes more of one's own preferences dilemma and that was the point.

At the end of the day though, the drawback has to be equal to the gain. I dont think the gain would be worth it, unless you somehow implemented custom items. Cuz only eks need EQ.

 

[DocSixty'Nine]

as always u forgot about truly rpg players who hate to kill somebody else than himself especially by monsters, i'm sure that they're going to get the best set no matter what voc they'll choose
also it should be obvious that every player gonna try to get better equipment, idk how many are going to grind best possible set
people like you and probably me will always choose money instead of items cuz of playing in team;
just let players play and watch out for bug abusers, botters and everything should work fine

 

[Adposatnr]

backpack has to be worth more than 50k for it to make sense to use it. And still, even more so on this type of lowrate, there wont be uber expensive bps till lv 150+ wars. You know that as well as I do. And since you use supplies as the battle goes on, your backpack is degrading meaning you are only using the aol for your boh or eq. Not your bp.



At the end of the day though, the drawback has to be equal to the gain. I dont think the gain would be worth it, unless you somehow implemented custom items. Cuz only eks need EQ.

yeah sure paladin wont benefit at all from better gear...

you can also use spears for maximum profit which u can later spent on pg

 

[Xyvero]

yeah sure paladin wont benefit at all from better gear...

you can also use spears for maximum profit which u can later spent on pg

this literally proves nothing lol. That could have been a sorc or Druid in that eq and it proves nothin lol. Only diff is they wouldn’t have 81 shielding. Gratz for irrelevant point..

paladin can get sane exp naked as with full rare set. Same for mages.

Knight can not.Knight depends on eq to lower waste and weapon to increase exp

 

[Roddet]

this literally proves nothing lol. That could have been a sorc or Druid in that eq and it proves nothin lol. Only diff is they wouldn’t have 81 shielding. Gratz for irrelevant point..

paladin can get sane exp naked as with full rare set. Same for mages.

Knight can not.Knight depends on eq to lower waste and weapon to increase exp

Its not about just getting exp but profit aswell, a paladin on orc fortress wont profit using bolts, just the waste
So therefore, end-game gear aor better ones has their benefits for every voc

 

[Aczkolwiek]

a paladin on orc fortress wont profit using bolts, just the waste

lol, what? u know about lootbags, right?

 

[Under Influence]

Lootbags? Just halberds from zerkers are enough for paladins to profit in Orc Fortress.

 

[Xyvero]

Its not about just getting exp but profit aswell, a paladin on orc fortress wont profit using bolts, just the waste
So therefore, end-game gear aor better ones has their benefits for every voc

You are kidding right ? XDDDD Literally 12 halberds will buy you 2000 bolts. You 100% will loot 12 halberd in first 100. Not counting chains, axes, gps, and orc leader rares

Also, if you are saying paladins should use EQ and hunt as a knight at the end game, then there is a bigger flaw in your viewpoint than your incorrect profit thoughts on orc fort.

 

[Roddet]

You are kidding right ? XDDDD Literally 12 halberds will buy you 2000 bolts. You 100% will loot 12 halberd in first 100. Not counting chains, axes, gps, and orc leader rares

Really? 12 halberd on first 100?

Also, if you are saying paladins should use EQ and hunt as a knight at the end game, then there is a bigger flaw in your viewpoint than your incorrect profit thoughts on orc fort.

I never said that, i just said the end-game gear has their "benefits" at some point or circunstance and yeah, i think ive expressed wrong myself by telling u wont profit using bolts but gear can be useful to any other vocation, not just for knights as you can see on the video, that was my point.

 

[Paszq]

I never said that, i just said the end-game gear has their "benefits" at some point or circunstance and yeah, i think ive expressed wrong myself by telling u wont profit using bolts but gear can be useful to any other vocation, not just for knights as you can see on the video, that was my point.

It can only be called "benefit" if purchase price of EQ and time are not factors in the equation. You spent 1kk gold on gear, now you can go to Orc Fortress or another place with weak enemies, and you can save a bit of mana. It won't be a benefit for a very long time - and by the time it would be profitable, you'd probably be much much higher level if you were just using distance fighting, therefore profitability of crossbow usage would rise even higher.

And the difference between Full set and, ex. Knight Set is so low (regarding damage received) that it will REALLY be funny numbers. Just carry a Dragon Shield and couple of Spears if you really really want. It will give more or less the same benefits.

Bottom line - yes, gear could be "useful" in some very specific circumstances, but not at all worth its price. Even for knights, let alone for paladins or mages.

 

[Recreant]

I still think that mages will run around in the same gear as they always used to, prioritizing capacity over armor anyways. Steel helmet/blue robe/plate legs or crown helmet/blue robe/knight legs in order to save money for runes. The difference isnt all that impactful anyways.

 

[kay]

It is quite funny that here I'm forced to advocate for how useful it is, whilst on tibiantis discord - for how little viable. Because people who logged on our test server and tried it, said that it indeed seems impactful - some even claimed OP, where I had to argue.
For me, that kinda means it is quite reasonable. Our target wasn't to force everyone to always use the best EQ. We only wanted to make it an option, so that you still can choose whether you prefer that or worse but cheap EQ as before. As opposed to the original, where I guess 95% would agree upgrading armor was completly useless. Now it has become more 'controversial' as we can see, which is good and should already increase demand on those items on the market a bit.
The exact arm values are not final and might yet be tweaked, but the general idea seems to work.

And the difference between Full set and, ex. Knight Set is so low (regarding damage received) that it will REALLY be funny numbers. Just carry a Dragon Shield and couple of Spears if you really really want. It will give more or less the same benefits.

Not true, with the new values full set (MPA, g-legs, demon helmet) blocks 24-47 dmg, where knight set (knight armor, legs, warrior/crusader helmet) 15-39. That's 13.5 dmg less on average EVERY HIT. In many cases it'll work better than perma might ring or elven amulet. Even in PvP since ue, sd and burst dmg are physical.
It's all true that it's costly and you may find it not worth the effort/cash, or risk in PvP. But if you think 13.5 dmg less is nothing, then consider using rook gear instead of knight set in your OF hunt, and you'll see

You guys should also consider that apart from supplies you later have nothing to spend your cash on. In that case it's always worth to make your character stronger, even if its cost won't pay back in a short time. After the attributes update in Medivia many people spent insane cash (dozens of milions gp) on that. It would often take very long time to pay back (if ever), so why did they do that? To get stronger, simply. You play to progress and develop your character. Sure, exping is the most effective way to get stronger so you'd usually be better spending your money on that, but if you can do both, then there's no reason not to.

 

[Xyvero]

It is quite funny that here I'm forced to advocate for how useful it is, whilst on tibiantis discord - for how little viable. Because people who logged on our test server and tried it, said that it indeed seems impactful - some even claimed OP, where I had to argue.

I’m sure some ppl do think that. Just like some ppl think they know how to pg or pvp while never having fought a serious low rate war. Point is, just cuz some ppl think it matters doesn’t mean it does if the ppl aren’t valid opinions. Look at the exp guides posted in earlier pages. Dragons at lv 50 as a mage. Tibia is 15 + years old and ppl still don’t get it.

Not true, with the new values full set (MPA, g-legs, demon helmet) blocks 24-47 dmg, where knight set (knight armor, legs, warrior/crusader helmet) 15-39. That's 13.5 dmg less on average EVERY HIT. In many cases it'll work better than perma might ring or elven amulet. Even in PvP since ue, sd and burst dmg are physical.
It's all true that it's costly and you may find it not worth the effort/cash, or risk in PvP. But if you think 13.5 dmg less is nothing, then consider using rook gear instead of knight set in your OF hunt, and you'll see

You mean the knights will benefit. Paladins who don’t take enough dmg won’t benefit much. Maybe over the course of an entire hunt they would save a few runes or mana but long term it would be negligible

You guys should also consider that apart from supplies you later have nothing to spend your cash on. In that case it's always worth to make your character stronger, even if its cost won't pay back in a short time. After the attributes update in Medivia many people spent insane cash (dozens of milions gp) on that. It would often take very long time to pay back (if ever), so why did they do that? To get stronger, simply. You play to progress and develop your character. Sure, exping is the most effective way to get stronger so you'd usually be better spending your money on that, but if you can do both, then there's no reason not to.

Medivia ? U mean the game that cash is sold for rl cash? The server with huge inflation of runes and money ? A lot of ppl spent money and wasted it too. Not everything they got was worth the cost.

 

[kay]

I’m sure some ppl do think that. Just like some ppl think they know how to pg or pvp while never having fought a serious low rate war. Point is, just cuz some ppl think it matters doesn’t mean it does if the ppl aren’t valid opinions. Look at the exp guides posted in earlier pages. Dragons at lv 50 as a mage. Tibia is 15 + years old and ppl still don’t get it.

It does matter, because it's enough to raise the demand. From that point of view it's irrelevant who's right, everyone will play his own style anyway.

Medivia ? U mean the game that cash is sold for rl cash? The server with huge inflation of runes and money ? A lot of ppl spent money and wasted it too. Not everything they got was worth the cost.

Yea, it's a different scale, but the point of making the character stronger stays. Pretty sure there are people who would choose "perma might ring" with aol and the risk over some cheap set even as mages.
I'm not saying everyone, not even the majority, but I do think you underestimate what difference it is 15-20 dmg less every hit on average in PvP, cause it really is alot, especially for a mage/pally.

 

[Xyvero]

It does matter, because it's enough to raise the demand. From that point of view it's irrelevant who's right, everyone will play his own style anyway.

Sorry but, when ppl with bad knowledge of the stock market, say that this stock or that stock is right, u dont listen just cuz "they have their own style". There is right, there is wrong. One 'style' is better. That style has always been to save cash by not buying EQ (as mage and pally) and instead spend the same cash into supplies for lvs.

What happens when demand raises?

Price raises. So at the end of the day, it wont be any more money saved most likely. You could easily write a code to show a graph that the increase in dps saved would increase the cost of the item inequally favoring the seller over the buyer. Meaning, sure it saves u hp but it also costed u more. So even longer to pay for itself. As the above guy explained about paying 1kk for MPA. It would take LONG LONG LONG TIME for the dmg saved from that MPA to be worth the price when a DSM would still save relatively similar for 1000% less the price.

1 single mpa, or 900k + a dsm. What is better? Its clear. MPA being better now, would cost more. DSM as well, but theyd always be in ratio. The armor value would have to be AEONS ahead for the MPA for any1 intelligent to ever want the MPA over cash + dsm.

Yea, it's a different scale, but the point of making the character stronger stays. Pretty sure there are people who would choose "perma might ring" with aol and the risk over some cheap set even as mages.
I'm not saying everyone, not even the majority, but I do think you underestimate what difference it is 15-20 dmg less every hit on average in PvP, cause it really is alot, especially for a mage/pally.

I agree it is a lot. However, since EQ will be more expensive, and since mages are already so smushy it wont matter. You also factor in the part about capacity and it becomes even more obvious why mages dont wear good EQ in wars. You want enough so you can mitigate some bolt/meele dmg but not enough that u cant supply urself.

Taking your example for mages into account.... Neither plate armor nor scale armor have increased their armor value. So we have to use knight armor vs scale armor as an example :

The increase in +1 armor for knight armor, vs scale armor. The scale armor has 15 less cap wich means 12 or 13 extra Uh runes. I am 100% positive, those 13 uh runes will be far better than that +1 armor. Now you say the other armors are better and thats true, but now you are entering the realm of too heavy eq for the mage to ever function. At the end of the day, the mage will save more by bringing 12 more uh runes than investing into better EQ that weigh more. Also the fact that the Knight armor can be sold for 5k+ (assuming price would raise to 7-8k but no guarentee) wich means they could have a few more bp MF in their dpot or an extra bp of sd. Both options are betterfor the mage than the +1 armor.

 

[rlx]

In all this discussion you forgot about people who seek for rare items not only for benefit, but for showoff (house decorations) and satisfaction.