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You guys do not understand why OTs are dying.

Don Vic

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Hello, oldschool OT player/creator/whatever here.

Sometimes I lurk the forum to see whats up and I’ve seen many “btthurt” posts about OTs dying, and the reasons, and no one has pointed the real reason.

I’ve seen the same “reasons” being pointed over and over:

-People got lazier
-Greediness
-People grew up
Etc..

The reason why people keep on making the same ots, baiak, Rl, etc its because making those types of Ots are way EASIER.

You guys are missing the point. Ots in the beggining were easier to make, way easier, XML was limited but easy, mapping? Was easier, if you wanted to test a map in your computer you only had to put your on the server folder and run it, and you could test it locally. Try to do that today with a 10+ version map, its a real pain in the...

Everything got harder for new people, of course ots are not attracting new talent, they get overwhelmed with the amount of stuff that they have to learn.
You guys find all of this easy because most of us we have been playing and creating ots since the 7,6 era or below. And learning then was easier, and from there we have learnt new stuff among the way, and now we see compiling as something not so tedious, but imagine being told to do this in 8.0?

If you are the person wanting to do something about this, about making the Open Tibia scene grow again as in its best years, you have to understand is that the key is in making everything “user friendlier” as possible. Make new ways to add new sprites less time consuming and way easier. Make ways to make testing maps in newer versions easier. Etc

The less steps something requires, the better.

Why do you guys think companies like Apple, or Amazon are so succesfull? Because their products are Easy and Intuitive.

Sometimes is better to simplify things and to make them more accessible, thats how you can get new people to get into this and to learn and later they will get into the complicated stuff. But don’t throw them into the sea of complication and overinformation.

The next Open Tibia revolution should be focused on finding ways in making things easier and faster, so new talent arrives and we get new ots with new ideas.

Making custom ots has to become simpler.

Hope this helps.

Yours Sincerely,
An Unknown Person who got tired of waiting.
 

Nekiro

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People that want to host theirs ots arent end-users like apple customers or any other successful brands customers. We aren’t selling anything so your comparision is invalid. Open Tibia is also not about making you easy to host a server, why would it be? If you would pay for the resources here you could brag about making stuff click to run. You have to invest time in anything you are trying to achieve, why would here be different?
The reason why people are making same ots all over again is not that it’s easier, it’s literally premade stuff and shared by someone who took time to make that thing, so others can download and run. Custom otses are not premade, are they? If you want something unique and custom, you have to do it yourself.
 

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imagine being told to do this in 8.0
yeah I remember
download this preconfigured dev-cpp and hit compile
things were so easy back in the days

@Nekiro
The point is that we used to download ots with compiled exe, ready database (xml or s3db), simone map editor and we had account manager so we didn't even need a website.

Now the entry level of knowledge is way higher than in the past. Running TFS for a newbie now is way harder than before.

From the perspective of a newb/noob user you have to:
  • find a repo
  • download the server
  • either compile or download some appVeyor (assuming you can find it as a new user)
  • wait hours for visual studio to install (assuming the installation won't fucking freeze like it did in my case) and yeah visual studio because a beginner won't be running linux
  • potentially find a way how to unstuck visual studio installer
  • wait hours for vcpkg to finish (assuming you run it because that shit can legit freeze and stop if it doesn't get admin permissions)
  • fix all problems with compilation (if you decide to continue that path)
  • find 10.98 client somewhere
  • set up the server software (apache, mysql, etc - probably xampp because old tutorials tell them so)
  • set up the database
  • fix pma issues (inability to login after securing the pma because files didn't change)
  • set up an aac (newb won't be using queries to skip it)
  • fix aac problems
  • make an account
  • figure out how to set god access in the database
  • run the server
  • cry or ragequit because setting all that shit up for the first time takes hours or even days
  • realise that your scripting skill will never catch up with servers that have prey system and other newest clients shit
so what people do instead of bothering with all this shit?
they download br rl tibia datapack, skip compiling, set up a website and database and run
new people don't innovate anymore because they would need to know the ancient arcana (being around so fucking long to be fluent in all the shit we know already)
 
Last edited:

ZowN

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Do you specifically mean OTS making? Because the larger problem imo is the amount of players that PLAY OTS, not the amount of creators.
If OTS had more players then more creators would appear as a result and more creators would put more effort because there would be more money to be made.

Now you can put 2-3k+ hours into a somewhat custom project and expect anywhere from 30-200 players and slightly higher if you are become the top 5 most popular. And there's only very few people who has the time AND will to do that. I'd say that is the biggest issue, it's an old game, many people have left it in their past.

So what if there was 30+ great server out there when noone there to play them.
 
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Don Vic

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People that want to host theirs ots arent end-users like apple customers or any other successful brands customers. We aren’t selling anything so your comparision is invalid. Open Tibia is also not about making you easy to host a server, why would it be? If you would pay for the resources here you could brag about making stuff click to run. You have to invest time in anything you are trying to achieve, why would here be different?
The reason why people are making same ots all over again is not that it’s easier, it’s literally premade stuff and shared by someone who took time to make that thing, so others can download and run. Custom otses are not premade, are they? If you want something unique and custom, you have to do it yourself.
In a way, we are selling the otscene to new people so they get into it, and there is new talent, therefore new custom ots and new ideas. And the best way to sell this is to make It easy-to-do.

Maybe thats the problem; “Open Tibia is also not about making you easy to host a server”

Why cant we work to make it easier?


You know what I realized, most of the baiak servers has something in common: it is very hard to find two identical ones, they usually have some differences like in spells, map details, etc. And the reason for this is that baiaks attract usually new people who want to learn, the same way Evolutions attracted a lot of people in 8.0+. I believe that the problem is not that they want to download and run, the problem is that they go to baiaks and rls because they are the bests ots to learn from, they can play with them, touch stuff, and learn on the go. Because they are user friendly.

i agree that in order to have something unique and custom, you have to do it yourself. And we have to find new ways to make things easier, and less time consuming so the new talent can learn more efficently.
Post automatically merged:

Do you specifically mean OTS making? Because the larger problem imo is the amount of players that PLAY OTS, not the amount of creators.
If OTS had more players then more creators would appear as a result and more creators would put more effort because there would be more money to be made.

Now you can put 2-3k+ hours into a somewhat custom project and expect anywhere from 30-200 players and slightly higher if you are become the top 5 most popular. And there's only very few people who has the time AND will to do that. I'd say that is the biggest issue, it's an old game, many people have left it in their past.

So what if there was 30+ great server out there when noone there to play them.
Tibia Rl is doing well currently, and im sure it will continue to do well. There are a lot of new Tibia players thst will eventually find the Ot scene, and if they only see the same ots over and over again they wont get interested.

we really need new talent, a new generation with fresh new ideas, not just a custom rpg ot with exp 1x new items and dungeons. We need things that completly change the game, the same way Poke ots did, tlprt otd did, DBZ ots did, etc.

If we start getting a new surplus on good ots, im sure that a lot of oldschool ot players would try them out, as well as outsiders.

Remember when Otpokemon came out? The first one, it attracted a huge amount of pokemon players, not tibia players, pokemon players. Things like that can be achieved with new ot ideas, crossovers, etc.
 

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Tibia Rl is doing well currently, and im sure it will continue to do well. There are a lot of new Tibia players thst will eventually find the Ot scene, and if they only see the same ots over and over again they wont get interested.

we really need new talent, a new generation with fresh new ideas, not just a custom rpg ot with exp 1x new items and dungeons. We need things that completly change the game, the same way Poke ots did, tlprt otd did, DBZ ots did, etc.

If we start getting a new surplus on good ots, im sure that a lot of oldschool ot players would try them out, as well as outsiders.

Remember when Otpokemon came out? The first one, it attracted a huge amount of pokemon players, not tibia players, pokemon players. Things like that can be achieved with new ot ideas, crossovers, etc.
That's just an assumption and tibia was still way more popular back when pokemon ot came out compared to now. I don't believe in this assumption, look at ranger's arcani. If that server only attracted 150 players on launch after years of exposure, alpha/beta test etc... Even if many people wouldn't enjoy it and stay to play the reality is that only 150 players even gave it a try on launch.

And I'm sure the amount of time they spent on that project didn't even amount to 1$ hourly pay. Not many people have the money saved up to go pay-free for such a long time.
 

zbizu

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RA's problem was years of exposure

they missed the biggest hype. People already put it in a box of "the big RPG projects that never start" and forgot about it. Many other players that were expected to come were also coming from other sites. It was mostly Polish fanbase, but one of biggest Polish OT forums died around 1 year ago so that also affected the launch outcome.
 

ZowN

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RA's problem was years of exposure

they missed the biggest hype. People already put it in a box of "the big RPG projects that never start" and forgot about it. Many other players that were expected to come were also coming from other sites. It was mostly Polish fanbase, but one of biggest Polish OT forums died around 1 year ago so that also affected the launch outcome.
So you're saying that if RA was a project that started 1 year ago, and had the same launch date, they would have more players?
Or do you mean that because OTS was bigger before, that would result in an increase of players?

Although I agree with my second statement, I really doubt the first one.
 
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Don Vic

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That's just an assumption and tibia was still way more popular back when pokemon ot came out compared to now. I don't believe in this assumption, look at ranger's arcani. If that server only attracted 150 players on launch after years of exposure, alpha/beta test etc... Even if many people wouldn't enjoy it and stay to play the reality is that only 150 players even gave it a try on launch.

And I'm sure the amount of time they spent on that project didn't even amount to 1$ hourly pay. Not many people have the money saved up to go pay-free for such a long time.
Yeah It was, but it was getting stuck, during those years if I remember well we had a problem with Evolution servers, there were too many, and all with minor differences. Then Poke ot came, I remember seeing in the youtube trailer the comments and most of them were from people who didnt even know about Tibia, asking how they could player the game. After one year or two we went from having 1 pokemon ot, to having 3 pages of only poke ots in Otservlist.

Ranger Arcanys problem was that they hyped for too long, this happens to videogames as well, if you wait too long for a release you end up loosing interest, in my opinion I like what some big companies like Nintendo, EA, Bethesda, does, they present a gameplay/trailer few months before release and they create hype, from there they hype it till release.

Also, ranger arcany is not for everyone, its a great Ot, but it has its niche, if we get a big amount of medium to high quality ots that covers different themes like rpg, sports, anime related, crossovers, new revolutionary stuff, etc, the chances of attracting people with different profiles will most likely increase
 

zbizu

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So you're saying that if RA was a project that started 1 year ago, and had the same launch date, they would have more players?
Or do you mean that because OTS was bigger before, that would result in an increase of players?

Although I agree with my second statement, I really doubt the first one.
They would have more players if the period from teasers to full launch was shorter
and yeah, they would have more players if they launched earlier

eg. by focusing on the story and adding game mechanics update by update, they would launch 1 year ago
they make a detailed server and do a lot of client stuff, but that's just slowing them down in the release date imo
 

3alola1

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Hello, oldschool OT player/creator/whatever here.

Sometimes I lurk the forum to see whats up and I’ve seen many “btthurt” posts about OTs dying, and the reasons, and no one has pointed the real reason.

I’ve seen the same “reasons” being pointed over and over:

-People got lazier
-Greediness
-People grew up
Etc..

The reason why people keep on making the same ots, baiak, Rl, etc its because making those types of Ots are way EASIER.

You guys are missing the point. Ots in the beggining were easier to make, way easier, XML was limited but easy, mapping? Was easier, if you wanted to test a map in your computer you only had to put your on the server folder and run it, and you could test it locally. Try to do that today with a 10+ version map, its a real pain in the...

Everything got harder for new people, of course ots are not attracting new talent, they get overwhelmed with the amount of stuff that they have to learn.
You guys find all of this easy because most of us we have been playing and creating ots since the 7,6 era or below. And learning then was easier, and from there we have learnt new stuff among the way, and now we see compiling as something not so tedious, but imagine being told to do this in 8.0?

If you are the person wanting to do something about this, about making the Open Tibia scene grow again as in its best years, you have to understand is that the key is in making everything “user friendlier” as possible. Make new ways to add new sprites less time consuming and way easier. Make ways to make testing maps in newer versions easier. Etc

The less steps something requires, the better.

Why do you guys think companies like Apple, or Amazon are so succesfull? Because their products are Easy and Intuitive.

Sometimes is better to simplify things and to make them more accessible, thats how you can get new people to get into this and to learn and later they will get into the complicated stuff. But don’t throw them into the sea of complication and overinformation.

The next Open Tibia revolution should be focused on finding ways in making things easier and faster, so new talent arrives and we get new ots with new ideas.

Making custom ots has to become simpler.

Hope this helps.

Yours Sincerely,
An Unknown Person who got tired of waiting.
Thanks for calling me "btthurt" but I said some of what you have said in your post

But if you want to know the real reason ? it is like playing Medal of honor and then you find that call of duty is more interesting. then you leave the old game, that what is happening now it is not only the ots dying the whole game is dying now, in 2006-2010 tibia.com site was like 60k people online now you can see only 4-9k hardly .

I don't want to say that people is growing up because games is for every one but the game is too old now it is like 21 years old and cipsoft destroyed it and the alot of elder devol also doesn't care about the game anymore. it is not about the type of server or how the server is fucking awesome, it is about the people who play the server.so face it
 

ZowN

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Tbh if getting started to make an OTS is that difficult then you might as well just already give up. Because it ain't getting easier afterwards. Especially if you want a server that is anything but download & run.

Sure "ObjectBuilder" is tedious, time-consuming and lack tools. RME could integrate new tools like that recent post someone made with a list of stuff he wanted to buy.
But aside from that, what is there really to be unsatisfied about? And if those two tools are what's preventing you from making a server then I really don't think you'd make a server even if that wasn't the case.

Scripting LUA is extremely easy to get into, setting up a server is extremely easy, even full videos out that you basically just have to "Monkey see, monkey do". Source editing is something you have to learn on your own, that's just how it is.

Actually now there is one thing I could think of, and that is OTClient. OTClient really lacks documentation and tutorials.
 
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Don Vic

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Thanks for calling me "btthurt" but I said some of what you have said in your post

But if you want to know the real reason ? it is like playing Medal of honor and then you find that call of duty is more interesting. then you leave the old game, that what is happening now it is not only the ots dying the whole game is dying now, in 2006-2010 tibia.com site was like 60k people online now you can see only 4-9k hardly .

I don't want to say that people is growing up because games is for every one but the game is too old now it is like 21 years old and cipsoft destroyed it and the alot of elder devol also doesn't care about the game anymore. it is not about the type of server or how the server is fucking awesome, it is about the people who play the server.so face it
Didn’t meant to offend anyone with the “btthurt” statement, just emphasize a point.
Tibia has actually improved in the past 2 years, also the player count has increased, obviously is not like 2007 but its improving, right now there are 11,662 players online. Ot servers could take advantage of this and lure some players from Rl Tibia and viceversa.

I agree, we grew up, most of us left. But that doesn’t mean new generations can‘t enjoy it, and get into ots, look at minecraft, if it wouldnt be for their custom servers and mods it would be dead, but today, is always in the top 5 of most downlaod and play games in each platform. And minecraft was launched in 2009.
 

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So you suggest us to not deliver any quality?

The only reason some servers are 'user friendly' is because:

  • It is a no brainer to step in teleports with a level door and a certain unmodified monsters, classes, items etc.
  • There requires no thinking, barely (if any) puzzles, riddles.. One sided path spawns....
  • if the map isn't RL it is downloaded/pasted and overused so many times as certain systems scripts that's been copy/pasted, that it all got saturated.
Which even may lead to issues if your a server that do not want to make use of saturated systems (e.g. teleports and/OP donations/or allowing bots and mc's).

I thought the average OT player is a 'pro', as the tibia/ot community is already matured for the most part? With pro i mean knowledged about tibia's basics/concept/in depth details.. but in the end it seems not to for many... but that's maybe also the reason due to 'years of cheap ots'. That do not have a quest log or do not use minimap marks, or having valuable commands etc.

There needs to be pampering for sure and then you will still have confused players who decide to skip tutorial island and all hints the game is giving so far xD. Not to mention the toxics....

All the work custom/unique servers do to make it more user friendly is much more then any shitty teleport server.



Animera
 
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Don Vic

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So you suggest us to not deliver any quality?

The only reason some servers are 'user friendly' is because:

  • It is a no brainer to step in teleports with a level door and a certain unmodified monsters, classes, items etc.
  • There requires no thinking, barely (if any) puzzles, riddles.. One sided path spawns....
  • if the map isn't RL it is downloaded/pasted and overused so many times as certain systems scripts that's been copy/pasted, that it all got saturated.
Which even may lead to issues if your a server that do not want to make use of saturated systems (e.g. teleports and/OP donations/or allowing bots and mc's).

I thought the average OT player is a 'pro', as the tibia/ot community is already matured for the most part? With pro i mean knowledged about tibia's basics/concept/in depth details.. but in the end it seems not to for many... but that's maybe also the reason due to 'years of cheap ots'. That do not have a quest log or do not use minimap marks, or having valuable commands etc.

There needs to be pampering for sure and then you will still have confused players who decide to skip tutorial island and all hints the game is giving so far xD. Not to mention the toxics....

All the work custom/unique servers do to make it more user friendly is much more then any shitty teleport server.



Animera
Never said, to not deliver quality, i actually mean the opposite. We Oldschoolers are leaving the game slowly, we really need fresh blood, and the type of new people who want to learn. And the best we can do is to soften the path for them. The entry level of knowledge necessary to make a custom ot is too high, i was just comparing how it was back in the day to today.
A lot of the new creators will learn over time and get into the more complicated stuff, but at first ots shouldnt be so hard, so it doesnt overwhelm the potenial new talent. This new talent will deliver in the future quality ots if they start learning.
Post automatically merged:

Tbh if getting started to make an OTS is that difficult then you might as well just already give up. Because it ain't getting easier afterwards. Especially if you want a server that is anything but download & run.

Sure "ObjectBuilder" is tedious, time-consuming and lack tools. RME could integrate new tools like that recent post someone made with a list of stuff he wanted to buy.
But aside from that, what is there really to be unsatisfied about? And if those two tools are what's preventing you from making a server then I really don't think you'd make a server even if that wasn't the case.

Scripting LUA is extremely easy to get into, setting up a server is extremely easy, even full videos out that you basically just have to "Monkey see, monkey do". Source editing is something you have to learn on your own, that's just how it is.

Actually now there is one thing I could think of, and that is OTClient. OTClient really lacks documentation and tutorials.
”Tbh if getting started to make an OTS is that difficult then you might as well just already give up. Because it ain't getting easier afterwards.”
Its supposed to be like that, normally when you learn a new skill or anything else, you start with the basics and overtime you get into the most complicated stuff, why make it so complicated for the basic stuff? Lets make it easier and more efficent, all of us might benefit from it.
 

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Never said, to not deliver quality, i actually mean the opposite. We Oldschoolers are leaving the game slowly, we really need fresh blood, and the type of new people who want to learn. And the best we can do is to soften the path for them. The entry level of knowledge necessary to make a custom ot is too high, i was just comparing how it was back in the day to today.
A lot of the new creators will learn over time and get into the more complicated stuff, but at first ots shouldnt be so hard, so it doesnt overwhelm the potenial new talent. This new talent will deliver in the future quality ots if they start learning.
Post automatically merged:



”Tbh if getting started to make an OTS is that difficult then you might as well just already give up. Because it ain't getting easier afterwards.”
Its supposed to be like that, normally when you learn a new skill or anything else, you start with the basics and overtime you get into the most complicated stuff, why make it so complicated for the basic stuff? Lets make it easier and more efficent, all of us might benefit from it.
There is literally a step-by-step video, takes like 10 minute to get a server up and running. It doesn't get much easier than this. It's literally equivalent to copy & paste.
 
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Don Vic

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There is literally a step-by-step video, takes like 10 minute to get a server up and running. It doesn't get much easier than this. It's literally equivalent to copy & paste.
Yeah, but im not talking about that, im talking about different tools, others tutorials, like for example qhat you said, otclient related.
Remeres could be improved as well, etc

there is a lot of room for improvement that could lure a lot of people. This is how the Ot scene started, we kept on getting tools to simplificate stuff, i remember finding programs to make new spells easier, or for creating creatures, etc. Stuff like that could help
 
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This is not a war ZowN, we are debating on identying the problem so we can all work together for a solution.

I’ve been retired of Tibia and Ots for many years and it really breaks my heart to see its current state. This is a game with an enormous potential, and the Ot community is amazing we achieved such great things that it saddens me to see were it is heading. I think there is a great opportunity now, as Tibia is slowly recovering thanks to battleye and new mechanics that makes it less grindy and more Otlike, and we could either take this opportunity or see this die complelty
 

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Problem with rangers arcani was that they launch bugged server with cash-grab premium shop there was around 500 unique players in first two days most of them simply lost interest in waiting for bug fixes also rangers arcani is NON-PVP tibia server do u see any non-pvp server around? Would call it open-beta not official start tbh

Also a lot of ppl already explored most content and stuff during high rate test server so it was boring for them
 
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