• There is NO official Otland's Discord server and NO official Otland's server list. The Otland's Staff does not manage any Discord server or server list. Moderators or administrator of any Discord server or server lists have NO connection to the Otland's Staff. Do not get scammed!

About Anti-Trump people turning violent

"You have 10 million people in Sweden with a 60% tax rate." still can't find it even on that source, which is pretty weird
 
gunz said:
@Flatlander
Sorry for misleading, I didnt mean countries that leads the table. I meant countries that are considered as best for living and has much more higher taxes than your theory says. You should check best countries for living table.

https://lifestyle9.org/worlds-best-country-to-live-in-2013/
Click to expand...

I would rather have freedom than "High Living for All"

For example let's invent a country called "Averagistan" - Where everything is Above Average for everyone:
What if there was a country, that build perfectly identical housing, for everyone. And you all has perfectly identical furnishings, and perfectly identical computers, and internet, and TV and everything was Pre-Made to be the "best in the world" by Averages terms.

Every Citizen of this nation would live in the "best standard of living" compared to every other country, but there would be no CHOICE.
What if I wanted to live in a terrible house, but buy an amazing car?
What if I wanted to live in a terrible house, ride a bike, and have the most advanced computer room in the country?

Well if I made these choices, the standards of living for the country would drop below the "highest average" so I wouldn't be allowed. No freedom.


Taxes take away freedom when they are spent on social services.
I should be able to CHOOSE if I want healthcare or not, and CHOOSE if I want to pay for other people's healthcare.
Instead I have a guy with a gun, show up and say "You must buy healthcare, and you must pay for other people's healthcare."

Now, you might say "I like that a guy with a gun forces everyone to buy healthcare, I think that makes the world a better place."
But I think this is a dangerous game we play. Forcing people to do things against their will, for "the good of the nation" is a very scary concept and should be watched very carefully.

tokenzz said:
"You have 10 million people in Sweden with a 60% tax rate." still can't find it even on that source, which is pretty weird
Click to expand...

Google "population of Sweden"
Then google "tax rate of sweden"

the google SUGGESTION shows both of these.
The reason it is hard to find is it is a accumulation of a lot of different numbers.

Corperate taxes, sales taxes, pension taxes, property taxes, social taxes, blah blah.

For Example:
Farmer grows 1 Ton of Potatoes: -- Farmer is taxed when he sells the potatoes.
Transport is taxed when it transports the Potatoes to the new owner (Grocery Store)
Grocery Store taxes consumer when it sales the potatoes (sales tax)
Grocery Store is taxed on it's profits (corperate tax)
Employees at Grocery Store are taxed when they receive their paycheck (income tax)

You can't just look at 2 or 3 numbers, there are a wide range of ways governments hide taxes so it "seems" low when it is actually high.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
taxed around 24.5% from my wages for social help.
e.g. people who are on benefits go and get dental care.. for free, go and get money.. for free (around £140 every 2 weeks) because 90% of them just do not want to work.

I work 40 hours a week, and I cannot afford all my bills + dental care even because of paying for every other fucker in my country.

I agree with @Flatlander completely. I'd rather not be taxed, or be taxed less and pay for my own shit.
 
Flatlander said:
--LGTB, I think you over-react about everything, and are a highly-emotional reactionary group that tries to get insane things done by crying the loudest, so fuck you. No one cares if you are Lesbian, Gay, Trans, or whatever, but don't try to change society to match your fucked up world view.

//End of Rant
Click to expand...

First of all, I completely agree with you that people should accept the fact that Donald Trump won, we all have our own opinions, he fought for his and he won.
I personally was rooting for Bernie and I don't agree with alot that Trump is saying. But like you said, he won, and that's it, it's pointless with people being violent now.

However, it's really sad that you have this opinion of LGBTQ people, and that we are all "crybabies". This is a TED Talk video that I believe speaks for us all LGBTQ people, this is what we want, watch it if you want, don't if you don't. I personally recommend it, it's so good:

The PULSE shooting was the (worst mass shooting?) in the US, targeting LGBTQ people. It occured in a place where LGBTQ people was feeling safe, were LGBTQ people harmful in any way? Absolutely not, they were just out there, having fun and celebrating. Was this shooting even classified as a hatecrime? Nope.
Also, you do realize that without gay-marriage etc. LGBTQ people do lose some rights since they're not married? We don't give a fuck if you like it or not, we want our rights.
When these kind of stuff still happends, where LGBTQ people are targeted, expect LGBTQ to be loud and have stuff to say about it.
 
@Flatlander
The reason I joined the conversation was your sentence where you said "If someone does not use college service, he dont have to pay for them." That shocked me.

So, based on your theory, if child is born to poor family that does not have money for college or even worse, healthcare, the child's future is already written because you can say it won't get college education even if it would be able to.

I have some points that will probably be absolutely out if your theories. I am from Slovakia but I have some friends that study high school or university in Denmark:
- they get everything for free
- some of them are even paid from government of Denmark (mostly for good marks)
- their parents did not pay any taxes in Denmark and will never do
- they are accepted by society as regular danish citizens
- after they finish study, they return home and won't pay anything back

All of them have been given a chance to get an education no matter how many money they had. That's the point. Everyone in EU can apply to any university in EU with no charge.
 
Nikodada said:
First of all, I completely agree with you that people should accept the fact that Donald Trump won, we all have our own opinions, he fought for his and he won.
I personally was rooting for Bernie and I don't agree with alot that Trump is saying. But like you said, he won, and that's it, it's pointless with people being violent now.

However, it's really sad that you have this opinion of LGBTQ people, and that we are all "crybabies". This is a TED Talk video that I believe speaks for us all LGBTQ people, this is what we want, watch it if you want, don't if you don't. I personally recommend it, it's so good:

The PULSE shooting was the (worst mass shooting?) in the US, targeting LGBTQ people. It occured in a place where LGBTQ people was feeling safe, were LGBTQ people harmful in any way? Absolutely not, they were just out there, having fun and celebrating. Was this shooting even classified as a hatecrime? Nope.
Also, you do realize that without gay-marriage etc. LGBTQ people do lose some rights since they're not married? We don't give a fuck if you like it or not, we want our rights.
When these kind of stuff still happends, where LGBTQ people are targeted, expect LGBTQ to be loud and have stuff to say about it.
Click to expand...

I apologize I will retract my statement.

I did not mean "ALL LGBTQ people are crazy emotional fanatics".
But there is a dangerous movement in your community, and none of you normal people speak out against it.
For example, New York it is ILLEGAL to not call someone by their "gender identifying pronouns". Which means if I call you "Hey man" or say "He said this" you can be fined up to $250,000 if you refuse to say "Ze said this" or "I do not like Zer."

I also see people say "We aren't allowed to get housing, or get jobs, or get healthcare." This isn't true, LGBTQ people have all the rights of normal citizens, you cannot have your rights taken away from you simply because you think you are a different gender. Just like you can't have your rights taken away just because you are a Foxkin.

Sadly, Gender Identity Disorder IS a thing, it was known as a mental disorder for many years, but now we are forced to just say "OK, fine you are a man trapped in a woman's body, if I say anything else I will lose my job and be demonized as a hateful person."

The next thing will be "OK, Fine, you are a fox trapped in a Woman's Body, I would object and say I don't beleive that Foxes are reborn as humans, but if I do I will lose my job and be demonized as a hateful person."

Gay and Lesbian - Fine.
People who are born as a hermaphrodite - Fine.

People who think they were born a man but want to be a woman - I believe you have Gender Identity Disorder and need psychiatric help.
These are my opinions, but no one is allowed to voice these in public without a tidal wave of hate coming towards them.

Ben Shapiro said something similar to a trans man/woman named Zoey and he grabbed him by the neck, threatened to put him in the hospital, and everyone said "Well you shouldn't have said he was delusional."
 
gunz said:
@Flatlander
The reason I joined the conversation was your sentence where you said "If someone does not use college service, he dont have to pay for them." That shocked me.

So, based on your theory, if child is born to poor family that does not have money for college or even worse, healthcare, the child's future is already written because you can say it won't get college education even if it would be able to.

I have some points that will probably be absolutely out if your theories. I am from Slovakia but I have some friends that study high school or university in Denmark:
- they get everything for free
- some of them are even paid from government of Denmark (mostly for good marks)
- their parents did not pay any taxes in Denmark and will never do
- they are accepted by society as regular danish citizens
- after they finish study, they return home and won't pay anything back

All of them have been given a chance to get an education no matter how many money they had. That's the point. Everyone in EU can apply to any university in EU with no charge.
Click to expand...
their parents may not have paid taxes (which i doubt o_O)
but someone had to pay for their schooling, not everything is "free"
 
Xeraphus said:
their parents may not have paid taxes (which i doubt o_O)
but someone had to pay for their schooling, not everything is "free"
Click to expand...
Yes, you're right :).

It is little bit more complicated because of EU. (so at the end, some money from taxes of their parents reach Denmark because of EU laws)

The point is that school is free for them and everyone can apply for it and if they are accepted, they can start study no matter of money status.
 
gunz said:
@Flatlander
The reason I joined the conversation was your sentence where you said "If someone does not use college service, he dont have to pay for them." That shocked me.

So, based on your theory, if child is born to poor family that does not have money for college or even worse, healthcare, the child's future is already written because you can say it won't get college education even if it would be able to.

I have some points that will probably be absolutely out if your theories. I am from Slovakia but I have some friends that study high school or university in Denmark:
- they get everything for free
- some of them are even paid from government of Denmark (mostly for good marks)
- their parents did not pay any taxes in Denmark and will never do
- they are accepted by society as regular danish citizens
- after they finish study, they return home and won't pay anything back

All of them have been given a chance to get an education no matter how many money they had. That's the point. Everyone in EU can apply to any university in EU with no charge.
Click to expand...

It is heartless, but I believe a better country is built upon making responsible citizens.

Currently we have people having TONS of children when they do not have the income to support it, because they know the government will just pour free money into their pockets.

If they knew "Hey, if I have a child, we may all starve to death" people would be forced to be more responsible.

It is heartless, but my ideas can be simply stated as:
"If you don't work, you don't eat"

We will all watch movies, of some rich white guy being shipwrecked on an island, and he finds a tribe of people, and he tries to take some food and they slap it out of his hands and says "If you don't work, you don't eat." This man then might be a crybaby and not work, sit in a corner, but sooner or later he comes out of hiding and starts working, and becomes part of the community, and people begin to respect him and we all cheer "Yay, great movie, white rich guy learned the value of a hard days work."

But as soon as you put this in context of a family, you all disagree.

Man and woman don't work hard, or are lazy, or are poor, but they can manage and feed themselves.

They then have a child, and can't feed it, and we all say "That is terrible, that child should not starve because of their parents, give them money."
Then that family has 4 kids, quits working, and lives off the welfare of the state, and you have NO WAY OUT. Our choice is, "let them starve, or give them free money."

They hold us hostage by our morals. It's basically a hunger strike. "I refuse to be responsible, and I will put myself in a bad situation, and if you don't feed me I will die and you will feel bad."
Well sorry, I might feel bad, but I won't enable your reckless and immoral ideals of forcing me to pay for your survival.
 
Flatlander said:
It is heartless, but I believe a better country is built upon making responsible citizens.

Currently we have people having TONS of children when they do not have the income to support it, because they know the government will just pour free money into their pockets.

If they knew "Hey, if I have a child, we may all starve to death" people would be forced to be more responsible.

It is heartless, but my ideas can be simply stated as:
"If you don't work, you don't eat"

We will all watch movies, of some rich white guy being shipwrecked on an island, and he finds a tribe of people, and he tries to take some food and they slap it out of his hands and says "If you don't work, you don't eat." This man then might be a crybaby and not work, sit in a corner, but sooner or later he comes out of hiding and starts working, and becomes part of the community, and people begin to respect him and we all cheer "Yay, great movie, white rich guy learned the value of a hard days work."

But as soon as you put this in context of a family, you all disagree.

Man and woman don't work hard, or are lazy, or are poor, but they can manage and feed themselves.

They then have a child, and can't feed it, and we all say "That is terrible, that child should not starve because of their parents, give them money."
Then that family has 4 kids, quits working, and lives off the welfare of the state, and you have NO WAY OUT. Our choice is, "let them starve, or give them free money."

They hold us hostage by our morals. It's basically a hunger strike. "I refuse to be responsible, and I will put myself in a bad situation, and if you don't feed me I will die and you will feel bad."
Well sorry, I might feel bad, but I won't enable your reckless and immoral ideals of forcing me to pay for your survival.
Click to expand...

The past already showed it doesnt work. I am sure if you would spend like 1 year in Denmark or similiar country you would change your mind. :)
 
gunz said:
The past already showed it doesnt work. I am sure if you would spend like 1 year in Denmark or similiar country you would change your mind. :)
Click to expand...

It doesn't work, right.

Other than the fact that America is built upon the idea of the "American Dream" which is the idea that if you come here, work hard, you can be successful.

The idea of Denmark is "If you come here, and do nothing, you can live a cushy mediocre life."

Sorry I don't like that, I want the best, and brightest people of the world to move to my country because they know that we reward hard work, good ideas, and success, and we punish bad ideas, and lazy people.

Lazy people can all move to Denmark and other socialist countries. I'd rather have a country of hard working, smart, and inventive people.

If you want free colleges? Make a charity and have people voluntarily donate towards that idea.
Want free healthcare for the poor? Make a charity and have people voluntarily donate towards healthcare.

But, you should not send people with guns to everyone's house to FORCE them to donate to causes you think are justified. That to me, is immoral behavior.

Now, a country is generally a place of like-minded people. The citizens of Denmark agreed upon the idea of Free College and Free Healthcare and they agree that it should be taken out of Taxes. But that does not mean it would be a moral, and good thing, to force all other countries to do the same.
 
Flatlander said:
It doesn't work, right.

Other than the fact that America is built upon the idea of the "American Dream" which is the idea that if you come here, work hard, you can be successful.

The idea of Denmark is "If you come here, and do nothing, you can live a cushy mediocre life."

Sorry I don't like that, I want the best, and brightest people of the world to move to my country because they know that we reward hard work, good ideas, and success, and we punish bad ideas, and lazy people.

Lazy people can all move to Denmark and other socialist countries. I'd rather have a country of hard working, smart, and inventive people.

If you want free colleges? Make a charity and have people voluntarily donate towards that idea.
Want free healthcare for the poor? Make a charity and have people voluntarily donate towards healthcare.

But, you should not send people with guns to everyone's house to FORCE them to donate to causes you think are justified. That to me, is immoral behavior.

Now, a country is generally a place of like-minded people. The citizens of Denmark agreed upon the idea of Free College and Free Healthcare and they agree that it should be taken out of Taxes. But that does not mean it would be a moral, and good thing, to force all other countries to do the same.
Click to expand...
Excuse me? Did you actually call socialist countries lazy?
And you claim that smart people go to the US because their hard work is valued?

Give me a break, ignorance really is bliss.
 
Flatlander said:
I do not like Trump, I don't care if you like him or not.

But, in a democracy, we use the freedom of speech to voice our opinions and work out issues.

To anyone who thinks being violent is a good solution, or are proud that they assault people who support Trump, this message is for you.

If you are in the US, this is a democracy. We use the freedom of speech, and voting, along with the constitution and bill of rights to help make laws and elect our representatives.

Even if you didn't like Hillary, you could have still voted for your House Representatives and Senators to support your ideals and help with Checks and Balances. But, PEOPLE (not republicans) voted in a Majority Republican House, Majority Republican Senate, and President-Elect Trump.

You can protest, you can voice your concerns, but being violent about this is immoral. We don't live in a Dictatorship, you aren't going to stage a coup d'état and put someone else into the White House. You are protected by our laws and you have the rights of free speech and freedom to protest. You do not have the right to be violent. You also don't have the right to "get what you want" when it is against the law.

Trump will be the president for the next 4 years. Figure out what went wrong, make changes, and try again next election.

Why was your candidate a very corrupt woman? Why didn't more people vote 3rd party so they had a platform? (You need 15% and they get on stage, then they can start taking an effect).

Imagine if instead of Hilary, Michelle Obama was the candidate? She'd have beaten trump no problem. Bernie probably could have beaten Trump as well (even though I don't agree with his Policies)

Instead of throwing a violent tantrum now, work to fix yourselves for the next election.

Also, to anyone who thinks Trump is going to start deporting legal citizens, you are an idiot.
--Muslims, you are fine, he doesn't want to deport you or care that you are in the US, he wants rational background checks on new muslims (such as Refugees) entering the country to avoid the rampant issues and terrorism happening in European countries.
--Mexicans, you are fine, he doesn't care about you unless you got here illegally, and even then he doesn't have the means to deport you unless you are doing illegal activities inside the US.
--LGTB, I think you over-react about everything, and are a highly-emotional reactionary group that tries to get insane things done by crying the loudest, so fuck you. No one cares if you are Lesbian, Gay, Trans, or whatever, but don't try to change society to match your fucked up world view.

//End of Rant
Click to expand...
Very well put.
 
Zatjin said:
Excuse me? Did you actually call socialist countries lazy?
And you claim that smart people go to the US because their hard work is valued?

Give me a break, ignorance really is bliss.
Click to expand...

Socialist systems themselves allow lazy people to get free stuff by definition.
That is BUILT IN to the system.

You have a bunch of amazing citizens, working hard and doing their best to be successful. And then they are taxed, and a large percentage of their income is given to people that did not work for that money.
That is the entire "Idea" of a socialist system. It is Forced Charity.


--If you have a system, that rewards success and has no welfare, you will have hard working, and successful people migrate to take advantage of that system.

--If you have a system that gives out free welfare, you will have people migrate to take advantage of that system.
 
@Flatlander
You mean american dream that:
- produce biggest amount of homeless people
- produce the same pollution as China (which is almost 4-times more population)
- produce 2.5x more pollution than Europe with same population and same quality of life (or even worse) than Europe
- the half of parlament say the global warming is not a problem, even new elected president say that - everything for business
 
Flatlander said:
Socialist systems themselves allow lazy people to get free stuff by definition.
That is BUILT IN to the system.

You have a bunch of amazing citizens, working hard and doing their best to be successful. And then they are taxed, and a large percentage of their income is given to people that did not work for that money.
That is the entire "Idea" of a socialist system. It is Forced Charity.
Click to expand...

And America's system is way better, no mercy for the ones that don't have a lot of resources.
I'd rather pay taxes so I get free hospitals, free dental care, state built roads and what not than a country based on privatization so I have to pay to get an x-ray.
And the way I see it, we get better infrastructure by doing it so in my opinion it's a win win situation.

Oh @gunz brought up an interesting topic.
Norway will actually benefit from your president now. We will sell you a lot of oil because your president wants to use oil instead of alternatives which are good for the environment.
 
gunz said:
@Flatlander
You mean american dream that:
- produce biggest amount of homeless people
- produce the same pollution as China (which is almost 4-times more population)
- produce 2.5x more pollution than Europe with same population and same quality of life (or even worse) than Europe
- the half of parlament say the global warming is not a problem, even new elected president say that - everything for business
Click to expand...

I never said America was perfect.
We have a media that fights for ratings, instead of truth.
We have a population that is highly religious, and has a fear of science if it contradicts what is in the bible.
We have a gas/oil industry that feeds people lies and makes them fear alternative energy sources. (Personally I think we should just build tons of Nuclear Power Plants and use Tesla Solar Roofs+Power Walls)


But, we also have many great things.
We top the charts in Charity.
http://mashable.com/2015/01/01/most-charitable-nations/#TENvmzl7gkqN
We give the most foreign aid in the world to other countries. (Total, not by GDP, we give 0.19% of our GDP)

I still argue that we have the best "idea" of how things SHOULD be.
Fixing the issues you stated does need to happen, but the "freedom to believe what you want" is also important.

We can't just "force" people to believe in evolution, or climate change. We have to convince them with facts, which isn't as easy with religious people. They have been ignoring facts their entire lives.
 
Back
Top