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Moving towards OTC

What should we do


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So what we could do, is make the best OTClient bot possible, and then EVERY server will have huge botting problems, unless they switch to using a custom client or OTClient with bot protection.
Tada, that's the way to make everyone switch to OTClient or custom clients.
That's exactly what has already been happening. Existing OTClient bots are destroying Tibia clients. And not only the original, custom clients too. For every successful classic Tibia OT with custom client in the past year, someone has been able to make a working OTClient for people to bot with. To improve OTClient by ruining servers that prefer to play with real clients is not the way to go.

Because having a lot of "testers" using your client and reporting bugs, and issues is a great thing. It doesn't matter how they use the product, it only matters that they ARE using the product.
Is that what you told CIP before they lost half their players? :rolleyes:

Every single person I know that plays tibia uses bots.
Honestly, people who Bot usually contribute more to servers than manual players.
And, the people who are best with bots, are usually the smartest people in the community that offer the best feedback about your server.
Well, that explains everything then.
Should we make the best we can with OTC?
Nope, just LET'S GOGO MAKE MOAR BOTS LOL.
 
Well, that explains everything then.
Should we make the best we can with OTC?
Nope, just LET'S GOGO MAKE MOAR BOTS LOL.

Well I do agree with him that alot of users bot, but my main point was not to create a better bot.
But since so many users use bots and OTC dosen't have a good working bot it's not a bad things to invest some time into candybot aswell.
Sadely we return to the main point, if no one invests time into OTC there is also no reason to invest time into candybot either.

But if the bot is better then other "pay to use" bots, then we might be able to pull some users over to OTC.
Just try to make it; stable, easy to use and script.
 
But if the bot is better then other "pay to use" bots, then we might be able to pull some users over to OTC.
At the very least, having the bot built into the client would allow the server owners to control what aspects of the bot they wish to allow. This could be very good for servers because we could allow the utility aspect of botting (you must admit that there are a lot of tedious tasks in tibia) but we can remove the cavebots/warbots/ect...

One thing I am still unsure of is how difficult it will be to prevent players from adding their own "candybot" to your OTC and overwriting any bot limitations you implement. I haven't messed around with OTC at all but after speaking with Flatlander, he seems to think it would be possible. If that is true, I could see OTC being both useful to server owners and enjoyable by most players.
 
At the very least, having the bot built into the client would allow the server owners to control what aspects of the bot they wish to allow. This could be very good for servers because we could allow the utility aspect of botting (you must admit that there are a lot of tedious tasks in tibia) but we can remove the cavebots/warbots/ect...

One thing I am still unsure of is how difficult it will be to prevent players from adding their own "candybot" to your OTC and overwriting any bot limitations you implement. I haven't messed around with OTC at all but after speaking with Flatlander, he seems to think it would be possible. If that is true, I could see OTC being both useful to server owners and enjoyable by most players.

Well as of right now you can just dump the files into "mods" and start the client.
There should be a way to change this in the source code, something BOT_LOAD?

But as with everything, if they have the source code they can just change it out and use it, that is why classicus etc do so many changes - to make it harder for them.
Same goes for all bots, if it was easy Cipsoft would not have the major bot problem xD
 
One thing I am still unsure of is how difficult it will be to prevent players from adding their own "candybot" to your OTC and overwriting any bot limitations you implement. I haven't messed around with OTC at all but after speaking with Flatlander, he seems to think it would be possible. If that is true, I could see OTC being both useful to server owners and enjoyable by most players.

its a pretty simple feature actually
 
if it was easy Cipsoft would not have the major bot problem xD
Well for example, if you move everything from OTC to source so there are no mods/lua scripts/ect and then make your OTC for your server alone. Making a bot for it would be similar to making a bot for real tibia. I feel like bot developers aren't going to put effort into creating a bot for an OT server that has ~100 players. They get much more profit from creating a bot for an actual game of ~10,000 players.

Thinking about it more, I believe this is going to be another case where we will just have to make it as annoying/time consuming as possible for people to bot, and hope that there aren't many players willing to put the time and effort into figuring out how to get around it. With that said, I have this running theory I would really like to put to the test full scale where if you create something that doesn't feel like it should be botted, people >usually< will not bother trying to. I've dabbled in this already in a few servers I've created where fishing is extremely repetitive and tedious, so I made the fishing rods auto use themselves on the last spot you fished. Feedback regarding that feature was quite positive for the most part so I really do think if you design an entire server with that concept in mind, it might be really enjoyable and will capture the interest of more people and less computers.

tldr;
Make the OTC for your server as unique to your server as you can. (To discourage people attempting to modify their OTC to work on your server)
Make macro usage in your server as pointless as you can. (Anything tedious should either be redesigned less tedious, or have a built in feature that acts like a macro for that task)
Make activities in your server less repetitive/tedious as you can. (When all else fails, making the player want to play your server rather than having their pc do it should be the end goal)

In the end you should have less people attempting to cheat, and even less successfully cheating. That is my theory anyway!
 
Make macro usage in your server as pointless as you can. (Anything tedious should either be redesigned less tedious, or have a built in feature that acts like a macro for that task)
Make activities in your server less repetitive/tedious as you can. (When all else fails, making the player want to play your server rather than having their pc do it should be the end goal)

In the end you should have less people attempting to cheat, and even less successfully cheating. That is my theory anyway!

Agreeded!

https://otland.net/threads/ideas-to-stop-botters-from-server-side.238844/
 
Well for example, if you move everything from OTC to source so there are no mods/lua scripts/ect and then make your OTC for your server alone. Making a bot for it would be similar to making a bot for real tibia. I feel like bot developers aren't going to put effort into creating a bot for an OT server that has ~100 players. They get much more profit from creating a bot for an actual game of ~10,000 players.

Thinking about it more, I believe this is going to be another case where we will just have to make it as annoying/time consuming as possible for people to bot, and hope that there aren't many players willing to put the time and effort into figuring out how to get around it. With that said, I have this running theory I would really like to put to the test full scale where if you create something that doesn't feel like it should be botted, people >usually< will not bother trying to. I've dabbled in this already in a few servers I've created where fishing is extremely repetitive and tedious, so I made the fishing rods auto use themselves on the last spot you fished. Feedback regarding that feature was quite positive for the most part so I really do think if you design an entire server with that concept in mind, it might be really enjoyable and will capture the interest of more people and less computers.

tldr;
Make the OTC for your server as unique to your server as you can. (To discourage people attempting to modify their OTC to work on your server)
Make macro usage in your server as pointless as you can. (Anything tedious should either be redesigned less tedious, or have a built in feature that acts like a macro for that task)
Make activities in your server less repetitive/tedious as you can. (When all else fails, making the player want to play your server rather than having their pc do it should be the end goal)

In the end you should have less people attempting to cheat, and even less successfully cheating. That is my theory anyway!

Well what you are saying is that every server should make a diffrent client, thats good if you really want to make it harder for botters, but as you said it's really not worth it for the hoster either to make a new client for 100 players.
This client should "replace" the standalone client when time comes so if bot creators still wanna make bots for OTC they can, or users can use candybot.

You do have a couple of good points, but I still think - if people wanna bot they will.
They might like the auto fishing thing, but unless you implement a cavebot system they will still use bots.
Same with auto attack etc, they want it to be easy and I get it, some people don't have the skills to play without bots :p
 
Well what you are saying is that every server should make a diffrent client, thats good if you really want to make it harder for botters, but as you said it's really not worth it for the hoster either to make a new client for 100 players.
This client should "replace" the standalone client when time comes so if bot creators still wanna make bots for OTC they can, or users can use candybot.

You do have a couple of good points, but I still think - if people wanna bot they will.
They might like the auto fishing thing, but unless you implement a cavebot system they will still use bots.
Same with auto attack etc, they want it to be easy and I get it, some people don't have the skills to play without bots :p
The bot protection feature of OTClient cancels any request made without a keybind pressed, then gives a terminal warning saying "BOT PROTECTION IS ENABLED" or something.

For example. If you made a bot that walked around with OTClient, it would have to LITERALLY press the keys on your keyboard to move, or click the mouse.
Most bots (if not all bots) currently running for tibia simply send the packets needed to perform the task. I am pretty sure BOT_PROTECTION in otclient stops this.

But now you may ask "Hmm, what if someone else compiles the OTClient without BOT_PROTECTION enabled and uses a bot on my server?"

If we want all servers to use the same exact client, and we allow everyone to have the source code to the client, then yes it is possible to bot with OTClient because anyone can just re-compile their client.

If you want an OTClient that everyone uses, and no one can bot on, you can't give out the full source code. If you include your BOT_PROTECTION features in your source code, people can just remove it, or even if it is a protocol they could fake it.
 
The bot protection feature of OTClient cancels any request made without a keybind pressed, then gives a terminal warning saying "BOT PROTECTION IS ENABLED" or something.

For example. If you made a bot that walked around with OTClient, it would have to LITERALLY press the keys on your keyboard to move, or click the mouse.
Most bots (if not all bots) currently running for tibia simply send the packets needed to perform the task. I am pretty sure BOT_PROTECTION in otclient stops this.

But now you may ask "Hmm, what if someone else compiles the OTClient without BOT_PROTECTION enabled and uses a bot on my server?"

If we want all servers to use the same exact client, and we allow everyone to have the source code to the client, then yes it is possible to bot with OTClient because anyone can just re-compile their client.

If you want an OTClient that everyone uses, and no one can bot on, you can't give out the full source code. If you include your BOT_PROTECTION features in your source code, people can just remove it, or even if it is a protocol they could fake it.

Yeah and because of that it might be better to have the open source(as I planned), then let others modify the client as they wish.
I never planned to make some anti bot client, if you ask me - if people wanna bot, let them.
Would be better to help those who don't bot :p

But ye, im just planning to get some life into OTC again, not making the ultimate client to myself :p
 
but as you said it's really not worth it for the hoster either to make a new client for 100 players.
I think what you mean to say is...

It's not really worth it for people hosting real maps to make a new client for 10 players.
-or-
People copy pasting real maps don't have the knowledge to create their own client.

Either way my answer to that is, I don't really care. If they don't want to put time into the creation of their server, they likely don't care about botters anyway. If they do, they are going to have to put some work in to fight them. There is never going to be a foolproof copy paste solution to bots.

In addition, anyone making a custom server using the OTC is going to want to add their own stuff to the client anyway. The second you want to add something new, the entire concept of a "standard client" becomes completely irrelevant since players will require your new client to play regardless. For that reason, there is and always will be a benefit to making a new/custom client for a custom server. It allows you to have so much more control over how your server looks/works rather than being limited by the standard client.
 
I think what you mean to say is...

It's not really worth it for people hosting real maps to make a new client for 10 players.
-or-
People copy pasting real maps don't have the knowledge to create their own client.

Either way my answer to that is, I don't really care. If they don't want to put time into the creation of their server, they likely don't care about botters anyway. If they do, they are going to have to put some work in to fight them. There is never going to be a foolproof copy paste solution to bots.

In addition, anyone making a custom server using the OTC is going to want to add their own stuff to the client anyway. The second you want to add something new, the entire concept of a "standard client" becomes completely irrelevant since players will require your new client to play regardless. For that reason, there is and always will be a benefit to making a new/custom client for a custom server. It allows you to have so much more control over how your server looks/works rather than being limited by the standard client.

Well both, but you are correct. I don't care either.
Im not trying to make some anti-bot client that I will release or sell, I and hopefully more ppl will work on a client that everyone can use when the standalone client is discontinued.
If you wish to make an anti-bot client then go ahead, but as ive said before im just trying to get more attention to OTC if it helps by fixing up the bot, well sure.
We all have our own way of thinking, some might prefer bots some might not, it's up to the user itself.
 
Are you guys serious? Bot is the less necessary thing which should be worked on right now. Maybe we can implement in the OTC a couple of built-in features which will replace the place for Bot's, but working in a full content Bot is ridiculous.
Things which could be added without being so OP and waste a lot of time.
1. Auto Target
2. Auto Heal ( you can configure a quantity of health/mana for use something )
3. Auto Loot
4. Auto Pathing ( you already can do it, but should be able to travel long distance with waypoint )
5. Auto Say ( like saying every configured time on trade )
 
Are you guys serious? Bot is the less necessary thing which should be worked on right now. Maybe we can implement in the OTC a couple of built-in features which will replace the place for Bot's, but working in a full content Bot is ridiculous.
Things which could be added without being so OP and waste a lot of time.
1. Auto Target
2. Auto Heal ( you can configure a quantity of health/mana for use something )
3. Auto Loot
4. Auto Pathing ( you already can do it, but should be able to travel long distance with waypoint )
5. Auto Say ( like saying every configured time on trade )
are you sure all these things are client sided?
Some of the things are very easy to do as LUA scripts inside datapack itself.
auto loot - takes ~15minutes
auto heal - takes ~15minutes
auto say - takes ~15minutes
auto target - may take up to 2 hours.

I also think bot is least of the things we should worry about.
 
Are you guys serious? Bot is the less necessary thing which should be worked on right now. Maybe we can implement in the OTC a couple of built-in features which will replace the place for Bot's, but working in a full content Bot is ridiculous.
Things which could be added without being so OP and waste a lot of time.
1. Auto Target
2. Auto Heal ( you can configure a quantity of health/mana for use something )
3. Auto Loot
4. Auto Pathing ( you already can do it, but should be able to travel long distance with waypoint )
5. Auto Say ( like saying every configured time on trade )

I hope you know that candybot exists, we are more or less talking about fixing some smaller bugs (already done a couple) aswell as implement smaller things, like script / waypoints aswell as settings loading (almost done).
I am in no way saying we should make a new bot, but do smaller things to candybot so it's usable on servers where the exp rate is lower then 1000x.
You will run into issues using the auto walker(tested) if you either have a tp in the hunting ground or have to use alot of stairs, shovel and pick actions etc

Auto target works fine, but there is a bug; if you have it activated you can't attack by hand, it will cancel that attack no matter if there are any other monsters on the screen.
Auto heal is added, the spam bug is patched (I hope, can't reproduce anymore atleast).
Auto loot seems to be added(atleast in the GUI and code, but haven't tested it yet), but you can't save it (github version).
Auto pathing is there as you said, but as I said with the bugs it's useless and there is a reason this is added: https://github.com/BenDol/otclient-candybot/blob/master/modules/05-paths/events/smartpath.lua#L7
Auto say is not implemented, nor any other type of actions, not even the use of shovels or picks. And things like this makes the bot useless if you wanna do other things then magic train.

And I hope you understand that it will take alot of time and effort to get OTC to the point where the standalone client is, and so far only I have done things - atleast on github.
So to put it easy, if no other ppl contribute I won't be able to take care of this.

are you sure all these things are client sided?
Some of the things are very easy to do as LUA scripts inside datapack itself.
auto loot - takes ~15minutes
auto heal - takes ~15minutes
auto say - takes ~15minutes
auto target - may take up to 2 hours.

I also think bot is least of the things we should worry about.

They can be client sided, with OTC we can do w/e we want, otherwise we have to wait for cipsoft to implement it (and that most likely won't take long - NEW VIP FEATURE, NO MORE HEALING)...
And OTC has a bot already (candybot) but it's still in alpha or maybe beta no ide, but it's still not good enough to really use.
 
I want to explain something, because I am getting a lot of backlash due to my comments about a bot for the OTC.

I personally hate botting. I even dislike the light hacks, ambient light, the updated hotkey system, MCing, the exp bars, things that most people have no problems with, but I still view as cheating as it wasn't the original intended way to play the game, and these systems were only added in because cipsoft buckled, watering down their own game.

Hell, I think the marketplace in the depots is cheating because it took away any risk of trading with other players.

Auto loot takes away the skill and competition of looting.
Auto heal takes away the skill of timing a good heal.
Auto target is mindless.
Combo leader takes away good team work and communication.

Human ability and error is what makes PVP and even PVM fun. When everyone plays at near perfect levels due to their bots, the game just isn't as fun.

This list can go on for days.


But there is a major two fold reason why I think developing candy bot further is important.

1. People won't play the OTC on a normal server they can run a bot.
*This was tested among friends, literally handing them a OTC with superior features than cipsofts client, but was abandoned instantly when they couldn't run their bot on it.

2. Most OTs out there deserve to be botted, because the game is just so poorly designed, that humans can not have fun or even really play without a bot.

I'll give two examples of servers that I don't think are even playable without using a bot.

First one would be Archlight. This God damn server pretty much expects me to spam heals non-stop, and if I don't, the monsters in the game will KO me pretty much instantly. My character is able to keep up with it, on a fundamental level, as the exhaust system doesn't get in the way of me healing.

But my stupid human hands do not enjoy having to spam heal/potions 10 times a second to keep up with the game play. I can do it in spurts, such as if it was a boss fight, or a spam mob challenge, but no, this is just the constant default way to play the game. I will get (even worse) carpal tunnel from trying to play this game without a bot, and physically speaking, my hands don't want to do this, no ones does, it just doesn't feel good.

That is why every single mother fucker playing that game for any meaningful extent of time, is running a bot, as our human bodies just can not feasibly keep up with the demands of the game.


The second would be Xagulz Deathzot. I love Xagulz, he is a great friend, but I truly believe that Deathzot is not meant for human beings to play. He has done some good work in adding in some elements were the human player has to do some things, but the core game play of deathzot was designed around people having to bot the game.

To keep this post short, you simply have to cavebot this server all the time if you wish to enjoy the game play. Killing monster to monster is so uneventful and unchallenging that your brain will start to wither from lack of stimulation. Some of the boss fights are interesting, and the quests are alright, but the sheer volume of monsters you have to kill (even with exp boosts!) is just unGodly, and I'd rather kill myself than have to manual deathzot.


That is not to say that the two servers above don't have players who have never botted, I am sure there are players that never botted on them, and may have even been on the leaderboards. To you guys that have done that, FUCK YOU, you guys are abnormal freaks, that work to justify horrible game design. (fyi, Deathzot isn't horribly designed due to the fact it was designed to be played with a bot, I would also guess Archlight was the same).



As long as people make games that are humanly unfeasible to play efficiently, or so uneventful that your brain feels like it's gonna ooze out of your ears due to playing it, people are going to bot so they can cut out the bullshit, and get to the bits of these games that ARE fun.
 
I want to explain something, because I am getting a lot of backlash due to my comments about a bot for the OTC.

I personally hate botting. I even dislike the light hacks, ambient light, the updated hotkey system, MCing, the exp bars, things that most people have no problems with, but I still view as cheating as it wasn't the original intended way to play the game, and these systems were only added in because cipsoft buckled, watering down their own game.

Hell, I think the marketplace in the depots is cheating because it took away any risk of trading with other players.

Auto loot takes away the skill and competition of looting.
Auto heal takes away the skill of timing a good heal.
Auto target is mindless.
Combo leader takes away good team work and communication.

Human ability and error is what makes PVP and even PVM fun. When everyone plays at near perfect levels due to their bots, the game just isn't as fun.

This list can go on for days.


But there is a major two fold reason why I think developing candy bot further is important.

1. People won't play the OTC on a normal server they can run a bot.
*This was tested among friends, literally handing them a OTC with superior features than cipsofts client, but was abandoned instantly when they couldn't run their bot on it.

2. Most OTs out there deserve to be botted, because the game is just so poorly designed, that humans can not have fun or even really play without a bot.

I'll give two examples of servers that I don't think are even playable without using a bot.

First one would be Archlight. This God damn server pretty much expects me to spam heals non-stop, and if I don't, the monsters in the game will KO me pretty much instantly. My character is able to keep up with it, on a fundamental level, as the exhaust system doesn't get in the way of me healing.

But my stupid human hands do not enjoy having to spam heal/potions 10 times a second to keep up with the game play. I can do it in spurts, such as if it was a boss fight, or a spam mob challenge, but no, this is just the constant default way to play the game. I will get (even worse) carpal tunnel from trying to play this game without a bot, and physically speaking, my hands don't want to do this, no ones does, it just doesn't feel good.

That is why every single mother fucker playing that game for any meaningful extent of time, is running a bot, as our human bodies just can not feasibly keep up with the demands of the game.


The second would be Xagulz Deathzot. I love Xagulz, he is a great friend, but I truly believe that Deathzot is not meant for human beings to play. He has done some good work in adding in some elements were the human player has to do some things, but the core game play of deathzot was designed around people having to bot the game.

To keep this post short, you simply have to cavebot this server all the time if you wish to enjoy the game play. Killing monster to monster is so uneventful and unchallenging that your brain will start to wither from lack of stimulation. Some of the boss fights are interesting, and the quests are alright, but the sheer volume of monsters you have to kill (even with exp boosts!) is just unGodly, and I'd rather kill myself than have to manual deathzot.


That is not to say that the two servers above don't have players who have never botted, I am sure there are players that never botted on them, and may have even been on the leaderboards. To you guys that have done that, FUCK YOU, you guys are abnormal freaks, that work to justify horrible game design. (fyi, Deathzot isn't horribly designed due to the fact it was designed to be played with a bot, I would also guess Archlight was the same).



As long as people make games that are humanly unfeasible to play efficiently, or so uneventful that your brain feels like it's gonna ooze out of your ears due to playing it, people are going to bot so they can cut out the bullshit, and get to the bits of these games that ARE fun.

You do have a good point, but the game is pretty much 99% botters so what should we do.
Try to focus on the 1% or the 99%?
Remember that im trying to get more people to use and develop OTC, not the other way around.

No offence, I respect the people who play 7.x servers without bots and actually play better then 8.x players.
But since im only fixing things with candybot to get more users to use OTC I really can't defend any of the sides, mainly since I don't care about bots.
If you wish to ruin your own game, go ahead if you don't wanna use bots go ahead.
 
the best solution is the simplest
why don't you just disable light for bot-version of the client?
 
To keep this post short
Post was not short. It was the opposite of short. I had to download a bot just to read it! :( Pls Admin, fix pls!

On a serious note, no server requires someone to bot. If they choose to bot its likely because of one of these things.
1. The want to keep up with other people botting.
2. The want to keep up with "freaks" that can play games as if they are a computer themselves.
3. Lack interest in the game they are playing but still want to progress in it.
4. Lack the time to invest into the progression of the game but want to keep up with their friends.
5. Are compulsive cheaters.

If you think killing monsters on tibia is boring. Refer to #3
If you have a job. Refer to #4
If you are hyper competitive. Refer to #1 and/or #2 and in some extreme cases #5
If you play tibia/ots for fun. None of these apply to you, and you likely enjoy most if not every server you log into.

The truth is, no matter what the reason, the majority of tibia players use and even prefer bots. It doesn't matter how interesting you make a server, as long as there is a tool that is capable of doing things automatically, players will use it.
The only way to stop it is to create a client that does not have a bot and continue to make that client evolve in a way that nobody is interested in putting time/effort into creating a bot for it.
The question then is, how many tibia players would want something like that?
 
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