Moving towards OTC

[Flatlander]

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Im sorry for commenting here without proper knowledge.
Maybe it's just me. But last years I see more old school ots.
Bots are really not wanted by the majority of these users. Most opt for fast exp so there's no need for cave bots whatsoever.
And those who choose slow pace do so specifically because they like it and realise from first hand experience how bots can destroy everything and are without a doubt responsible for most part of Tibia's downfall.
The belief that more bot development will benefit open tibia and otclient the most is kind of disgusting lol.

Allow me to tell you why I personally don't play it yet. At first some years ago I was excited about the client and saw it as a huge improvement. But playing it does not at all compare. There's a long list of details, too many to start now, that make how Tibia is played and why it's fun is completely missing and replaced by new ways that make less sense and don't add to much. Most important, Pvp feels way off and despite a huge amount of higher fps it plays more poorly.
No, nothing about lag.

What otc needs in my eyes is an in depth, detailed gameplay like original clients offer. Imagine all the general improvements that were done on ot servers during the years to make it what it is today, to get an idea of the workload and slow progress to expect. That's why for the time being, otc is still too big of a step back in game quality for me. The only way I suggest to improve it is by keeping both clients available on as much ots as possible for as long as it takes. Try to assist but also wait it out and hope for the best. Because it's really going to take a lot more copying and doing changes before it can start to compare.

I don't believe the focus should be the fact there is not a really good bot for OTC.
OTC main target should be custom servers, and bot always ruins those games/servers, as it ruined Tibia.

I think the main objective should be OTClient being able to be a really good(or even full) replacement for current Tibia C++ Client. Custom things, launcher, server list, they are add on and not really necessary. Developers should have the best client base and work on it and build awesome custom clients to their games/servers.

The main issue now is performance, interface issues that really make OTClient worst to play than C++ Client.
@Iryont has been working for more than 1 year in making otclient usable for Medivia/Tibianic, so i don't believe it will take years and years to make it usable as C++ Client. @Iryont worked on performance too of course, and i hope he could share with us atleast the path and issues we need to work on to have a better OTClient.

There is always need for software developers to extended a project or make it suitable to certain objective so there is no way we can make OTClient one size fits all for all servers and such, we need a good base that people can work on. Currently if i wish to use OTClient i need to do so much things about performance, basic interface and things that it just make me give up. Some time ago i had a issue or miss feature on npc chat, which is a basic thing that should works perfect and as the player/user expects.

About Cipsoft new client, i'm not worrying, yet. Cipsoft needs to deal with their depency on boting, how it will affect their business as a whole. This move for a new client will make OTserver a bot paradise, for a while.

With reverse enginering it will be possible to make the new client to connect to ours servers and such, its not impossible.

Still, there is a need for OTClient, i believe. Why?
Its needed for a full OpenTibia developement plataform/stack. Thats all.

Here is my problem. I actually have NO IDEA why you two do not use the OTClient. It is clearly better (in my opinion) than the normal tibia client. It has more features, better battle list, more customization, and as long as you have a fast computer, it has better graphics.

But, I DO know that if the OTClient has a bot that can compete, or is better than elfbot. We will AT LEAST get the botters to use OTClient.

I don't think there is anything we can do to make the normal non-botting players to switch to OTClient, other than require OTClient for the servers they play. So what we could do, is make the best OTClient bot possible, and then EVERY server will have huge botting problems, unless they switch to using a custom client or OTClient with bot protection.

Tada, that's the way to make everyone switch to OTClient or custom clients.

 

[whitevo]

I had trouble with this too, but it is actually VERY simple.

I think it was INCREDIBLY interesting to see how you thought "size 106 23" might mean Position?
What the actual fuck are you thinking. It SAYS size. means it is probably the size. And since everything is done by pixels, what SIZE is it? 106 pixels by 23 pixels.
Anyone knows this, I think even you knew this. I feel you are purposely making things sound harder than they really are to pretend that the OTClient is IMPOSSIBLE to use.

Its easy, a retarded monkey with autism can use the OTClient and do edits to it. Hell my friend Sportacus, who IS NOT very good at coding, at all does more edits to the OTClient than he does to TFS.

**EDIT**
Then you look at the line stating "text-offset: 0 0"
Then say "HMM I wonder if TEXT OFFSET moves the entire button? Or maybe only the clickable portion of the button?

No sorry, Text Offset, offsets the text. That is why it is labeled "text-offset" so even people who do not know what they are doing, can know what they are doing.

Yeah, sorry for my incompetence.
The reason why I though size could mean positions is because I assumed the size is already given by the picture itself. But after I have read into the link Wibbenz gave me. I understand that position is given on the top panel or whatever they are called. Also I didn't know everything is done in pixels xD, good to know.
About text-offset. I don't know how i overlooked the first word "text" but apparently I did xD. Main concern is, why are this thing even called when there is no changes do it.

Anyway, I will take my time to go trough the CSS styling at some point this week.

About the botting thing for OTC.
This seems to be more like an useless feature, but what do I know. I just think, we don't really need users who only use OTC because it has better bot. And can we call them users in first place if all they do is press the "start" button?

 

[Flatlander]

Yeah, sorry for my incompetence.
The reason why I though size could mean positions is because I assumed the size is already given by the picture itself. But after I have read into the link Wibbenz gave me. I understand that position is given on the top panel or whatever they are called. Also I didn't know everything is done in pixels xD, good to know.
About text-offset. I don't know how i overlooked the first word "text" but apparently I did xD. Main concern is, why are this thing even called when there is no changes do it.

Anyway, I will take my time to go trough the CSS styling at some point this week.

About the botting thing for OTC.
This seems to be more like an useless feature, but what do I know. I just think, we don't really need users who only use OTC because it has better bot. And can we call them users in first place if all they do is press the "start" button?

Because having hundreds of "testers" using your client and reporting bugs, and issues is a great thing. It doesn't matter how they use the product, it only matters that they ARE using the product.

 

[whitevo]

Because having hundreds of "testers" using your client and reporting bugs, and issues is a great thing. It doesn't matter how they use the product, it only matters that they ARE using the product.

if they report anything then only that the bot does not work.

 

[Flatlander]

if they report anything then only that the bot does not work.

Every single person I know that plays tibia uses bots (at least on certain servers).

When they are home, they play normally, when they go to work, or sleep they bot.
Pretending that botters are these Evil Sub-Human pieces of shit that contribute nothing to the community and are worthless as a customer for the OTClient is ridiculous.

Honestly people who Bot usually contribute more to servers than manual players, because they are online more often and see more issues.

And, just from my experience, the people who are best with bots, are usually the smartest people in the community that offer the best feedback about your server.
So I could see them also offering very good feedback on the OTClient.

 

[Sportacus]

if they report anything then only that the bot does not work.

If someone wants to use the bot in the OTC, they are going to want the OTC to run as smooth as possible, with as many features as possible.

Working on the bot features naturally develops the base systems as well, as the two go hand in hand together, and can not work without the other one.

Think of it like a car, most people only care about how fast the engine is, or how gas efficient the car is. But to get the car to be the fastest, or most gas efficient you have to make a better frame, a better heating and cooling system, make better tires, etc etc. This is no different. If people like the bot, they are naturally going to put effort into figuring out some of the FPS drop problems, as it will make them bot better.

If the OTC bot is popular enough, that gives more power back to the developer to control what can, and can't happen. Bot protection is easier if everyone is using the same bot, espesically if the maker themselves provides it.

And what has been said by Flatlander, people that develop bots typically are well versed in scripting and how the game itself works and contribute greater.


Also, on the comment of if they will report anything at all, most 'reports' that game developers use from players are ones that were automatically when something happen, not manually sent by the player themselves.

 

[WibbenZ]

After I balled abit with @Flatlander I took some time to see how candybot works etc
And id say it's pretty good already, as Flatlander pointed out, it misses a major thing - script loading and saving.

It should be pretty easy to implement that aswell as other things that might not be there that ex. elfbot has.
Sad thing is that candybot is even more dead then OTC is, so it would not hurt to invest some time into the bot aswell IMO.

One thing that I think about, if I have great scripts for ex. elfbot why would I move to a new client, new bot and on top of that also have to redo all my scripts?

 

[Flatlander]

After I balled abit with @Flatlander I took some time to see how candybot works etc
And id say it's pretty good already, as Flatlander pointed out, it misses a major thing - script loading and saving.

It should be pretty easy to implement that aswell as other things that might not be there that ex. elfbot has.
Sad thing is that candybot is even more dead then OTC is, so it would not hurt to invest some time into the bot aswell IMO.

One thing that I think about, if I have great scripts for ex. elfbot why would I move to a new client, new bot and on top of that also have to redo all my scripts?

We could just script OTClient to use Elfbot Scripts.

Wouldn't be hard to just use the same language when adding a scripting system.

 

[WibbenZ]

We could just script OTClient to use Elfbot Scripts.

Wouldn't be hard to just use the same language when adding a scripting system.

True, but there are still more bots then just elfbot.
Ex. if I now use neo? or w/e it's called I could not use those either, so should either make a new one or add compats to the major bots.

 

[Flatlander]

True, but there are still more bots then just elfbot.
Ex. if I now use neo? or w/e it's called I could not use those either, so should either make a new one or add compats to the major bots.

We could add in a way for people to add in their own coding preferences.
Then, someone who prefers Neo could simply script in it's key words and coding style.

It wouldn't be hard to just make a way to select between different coding styles in a scripter. It would literally just run the scripts through a different filter.

**EDIT**
Anyways, I will be looking into making the OTClient draw more efficiently.
I had some tests with Sportacus, and while I can get up to 655 FPS in the OTClient (Drops down to 200-300 when things get busy). He gets around 50 max, and it drops down to 5-10 when things get busy. (Even after disabling lighting)

I did notice, If I set my OTClient to have a max FPS of 50, when things get busy my FPS will drop to 5-20. Even though my computer can have 200-300 fps during busy times if I set it to max. (Which means you basically want to set it to 200 FPS no matter what, since the OTClient is not good at keeping FPS stable when things get busy)

**EDIT 2**
My next tests will be with disabling animation, to see how much no Effects or Distance animation speeds up the OTClient.

I have a lot planned for the OTClient, so I really need it to be at least a little bit optimized.

 

[totolol123]

We could add in a way for people to add in their own coding preferences.
Then, someone who prefers Neo could simply script in it's key words and coding style.

It wouldn't be hard to just make a way to select between different coding styles in a scripter. It would literally just run the scripts through a different filter.

**EDIT**
Anyways, I will be looking into making the OTClient draw more efficiently.
I had some tests with Sportacus, and while I can get up to 655 FPS in the OTClient (Drops down to 200-300 when things get busy). He gets around 50 max, and it drops down to 5-10 when things get busy. (Even after disabling lighting)

I did notice, If I set my OTClient to have a max FPS of 50, when things get busy my FPS will drop to 5-20. Even though my computer can have 200-300 fps during busy times if I set it to max. (Which means you basically want to set it to 200 FPS no matter what, since the OTClient is not good at keeping FPS stable when things get busy)

**EDIT 2**
My next tests will be with disabling animation, to see how much no Effects or Distance animation speeds up the OTClient.

I have a lot planned for the OTClient, so I really need it to be at least a little bit optimized.

It's not possible make the drawing to render only when something move from the screen instead of every time? Like if the light source change or something with that light move...

 

[WibbenZ]

We could add in a way for people to add in their own coding preferences.
Then, someone who prefers Neo could simply script in it's key words and coding style.

It wouldn't be hard to just make a way to select between different coding styles in a scripter. It would literally just run the scripts through a different filter.

**EDIT**
Anyways, I will be looking into making the OTClient draw more efficiently.
I had some tests with Sportacus, and while I can get up to 655 FPS in the OTClient (Drops down to 200-300 when things get busy). He gets around 50 max, and it drops down to 5-10 when things get busy. (Even after disabling lighting)

I did notice, If I set my OTClient to have a max FPS of 50, when things get busy my FPS will drop to 5-20. Even though my computer can have 200-300 fps during busy times if I set it to max. (Which means you basically want to set it to 200 FPS no matter what, since the OTClient is not good at keeping FPS stable when things get busy)

**EDIT 2**
My next tests will be with disabling animation, to see how much no Effects or Distance animation speeds up the OTClient.

I have a lot planned for the OTClient, so I really need it to be at least a little bit optimized.

Yeah that is true, it's a good thing to discuss if it's worth putting time into or atleast to start with just create a new one.
The FPS is pretty funny to look at, first I was around 1.1-1.2k then when I enter the temple (high exp server) I go down to 600~ haha
For me, if I set it 50 fps it's pretty stable, goes down 3-5 if the screen gets busy but otherwise it seems fine.
So I guess it's true, if you got a decent computer OTC is better.

 

[Flatlander]

Does the OTClient use multiple cores?

Yesterday I was doing testing and it looked like it was only creating threads on a single core.

 

[Animera]

flash client would be nice for the ot community

no downloading no virus no time/memory waste, maybe also protection to spr files? just go to the website and start!


if people want to make a bot inside the client then it should also be able as hoster to see who is using it

 

[Flatlander]

flash client would be nice for the ot community

no downloading no virus no time/memory waste, maybe also protection to spr files? just go to the website and start!


if people want to make a bot inside the client then it should also be able as hoster to see who is using it

OTClient already has some bot protection, and it could be made even stronger if we wanted it to.
Protecting your sprites is generally impossible, even when using flash.

Most games have to be downloaded, and it has never really been an issue with gamers.

OTClient is actually built using Open GL ES 2.0. Meaning theoretically you could export it to mobile devices if you wanted to. And most mobile devices cannot use flash.

Also anytime you go anywhere and say you are going to use flash, you usually get a thousand programmers telling you that flash isn't really a modern way of making games anymore.

 

[WibbenZ]

flash client would be nice for the ot community

no downloading no virus no time/memory waste, maybe also protection to spr files? just go to the website and start!


if people want to make a bot inside the client then it should also be able as hoster to see who is using it

Flash does require downloading, it's bs that it dosen't
You actually download all the sprites(they are in png files, so no protection at all).
Viruses would be easier to add, if we could do w/e we want with the source.

The first time you start the game it takes a while to download the files, after that you have a longer time to login then with the standalone one, but still pretty quick.
Sadely we can't do so much with flash expect switching RSA keys and other things that has the same lenght as the value we removed.

 

[Animera]

Flash does require downloading, it's bs that it dosen't
You actually download all the sprites(they are in png files, so no protection at all).
Viruses would be easier to add, if we could do w/e we want with the source.

The first time you start the game it takes a while to download the files, after that you have a longer time to login then with the standalone one, but still pretty quick.
Sadely we can't do so much with flash expect switching RSA keys and other things that has the same lenght as the value we removed.

Yeah i know its loading and stuff but i mean if i want to play a 8.6 server and after that a 8.7 or 7.6 or something custom it would be annoying and there are moments for others as well for me to be to lazy to download the client to try which is also a reason i think people play lesser custom server but if i could play it when i just have to hit the site i think it would be a good solution

OTClient already has some bot protection, and it could be made even stronger if we wanted it to.
Protecting your sprites is generally impossible, even when using flash.

Most games have to be downloaded, and it has never really been an issue with gamers.

OTClient is actually built using Open GL ES 2.0. Meaning theoretically you could export it to mobile devices if you wanted to. And most mobile devices cannot use flash.

Also anytime you go anywhere and say you are going to use flash, you usually get a thousand programmers telling you that flash isn't really a modern way of making games anymore.

That's true if i really wanted to rip sprites for example i would make print screen of every frame and delete everything around it like grass but i want make it to easy.

didn't knew about bot protection that's nice




but... what would be a good solution then(for the sprites and/or lazyness )?

 

[Flatlander]

Yeah i know its loading and stuff but i mean if i want to play a 8.6 server and after that a 8.7 or 7.6 or something custom it would be annoying and there are moments for others as well for me to be to lazy to download the client to try which is also a reason i think people play lesser custom server but if i could play it when i just have to hit the site i think it would be a good solution



That's true if i really wanted to rip sprites for example i would make print screen of every frame and delete everything around it like grass but i want make it to easy.

didn't knew about bot protection that's nice




but... what would be a good solution then(for the sprites and/or lazyness )?

OTClient already allows you to play an 8.6 server, then 8.7, then 10.30. etc.

One purpose of OTClient, is to have one client that can play all servers.

**EDIT**
Also there is no solution to the sprites issue. People will always be able to steal your sprites. You can make it harder, by encrypting them, but if someone really wants to they will take them.

 

[WibbenZ]

OTClient already allows you to play an 8.6 server, then 8.7, then 10.30. etc.

One purpose of OTClient, is to have one client that can play all servers.

**EDIT**
Also there is no solution to the sprites issue. People will always be able to steal your sprites. You can make it harder, by encrypting them, but if someone really wants to they will take them.

Only downside with OTC is that you still need to get the spr and dat file, but other then that its the best one for switching versions.

 

[Flatlander]

Only downside with OTC is that you still need to get the spr and dat file, but other then that its the best one for switching versions.

It's actually the only client I know that you can use for multiple versions of tibia.