Methods/ideas for making team, based on payments.

[whitevo]

I have been thinking lately how to speed up making server/game/project progress with money. (now on called project)

Rules for writing down method:
Budget is 3000€


Keep in mind:
We talking about tibia-like game.
We are not starting huge company here. Method is for making a small team of people who has passion and/or dream to make a game.
When I talk about job, I mean hobby what earns extra $, not a real job what requires official contract and appropriate payment.
This also means that person who is assigned to do task has no deadline. (kind of)
When team-member has reported weekly of his doings or not doings, they still will get the monthly bonus.


First let me divide the project into main jobs: (let me know if I'm missing something or you could improve description)

• Project leader (Sets up priorities on job tasks and makes sure communication between other team-members go smoothly)
• Engine coder and programmer (scripts/source)
• Client coder and programmer (yes. that too. another part of coding)
• Web developer (yes. that.)
• Graphical artist (pictures for website/youtube/client)
• Pixel artist (pictures what are used in game items,landscape,effects,partciles, etc)
• Mapper (making the visual part of game world)
• Database manager (data recording)

User Codex NG method: >post 9<
User Flatlander thoughs on payment method and costs: >post 13<
VV My method below VV

My reasoning for method:
I think making project from scratch takes lot of time and therefor buying scripts or sprites or map pieces 1 by 1 from different people is very ineffective for the budget.
Therefor I think its best to "hire" a team-member for specific job for months or more if possible.


Requirements to be team-member:
They like the project.
They believe in project future.
They will contribute or report at least once a week.
We understand eachother.
They make 30€ worth of tasks for free.


Payment method:
I set the price for tasks. (For each job I make research how long would different tasks take for experienced person)
Average price 2€ per hour. (same price is set to everything, graphics, scripts)
Setting a monthly limit would also be wize decision, so you wouldn't bust your budget too fast.
Experience counts so the longer you last the better. If possible each month add some more money to server budget, until its no longer required. (when server earns profit)
In this case I'm going to keep the monthly budget around 800€ and add about ~200-400€
each month. This would give me about 5 months of "high speed" server production.
(if limit is reached every time)

Bonus: (Actual fee to everyone in team.)
Server monthly profit is divided into all job areas. (see the Profit pie table below)
If profit is over 1o0€ then bonus will be divided between team-members.
The Bonus is staged between people who work under same job.

Stages: (stages go in order)
1. team-member done 2000€ worth of tasks. 10% of profit is shared between team-members who are in this stage.
2. team-member done 1000€ worth of tasks. 10% of profit is shared between team-members who are in this stage or higher.
3. team-member done 500€ worth of tasks. 10% of profit is shared between team-members who are in this stage or higher.
4. team-member done 200€ worth of tasks. 10% of profit is shared between team-members who are in this stage or higher.
5. team-member. Profit is shared between team-members who are in this stage or higher.

Example:
Team has 3 mappers.
First Mapper has done most of the map and is old fish who has done over 2000€ worth of map
Second Mapper has done 600€ worth of map.
Third Mapper is new member.
100€ of profit is spread to mappers.

First Mapper earns 10+9+4+3+22 = 48€
Second Mapper earns 4+3+22 = 29€
Third Mapper earns 0+22 = 22€
1€ is calculated for next month profit.


Profit:
Profit is calculated each month.
A = Total Profit what was passed to next month (can be negative)
B = How much game earned
C = Extra costs (hosting equipment, better protection, advertising, prizes to players, etc)
D = Payments to team-members (expect my work)

Profit = A+B-C-D


Profit pie: (job - % - my reason for %)

• Project leader- 10% (I'm greedy!)

• Engine coder and programmer - 20% (One of the main requirements to make a game. After all systems and scripts are ready, they will still be constantly used and updated to produce content. When bugs occur on live version, it requires more of an immediate action.)

• Client coder and programmer- 15% (One of the main requirements to make a game. When bugs occur on live version, it requires more of an immediate action.)

• Web developer - 10% (It will be done once, but when game engine or new features are added website should be updated too, this also includes android app, even though its not the same thing)

• Graphical artist - 15% (There is always going to be pictures what are required to keep the hype and franchies up)

• Pixel artist - 10% (One of the main requirements to make a game. But when most of the landscapes are done, then they will be used over and over again. New content doesn't need too many new sprites unless landscape changes.)

• Mapper - 20% (One of the main requirements to make a game. Always required for new content)

• Database manager - 0% (Idk, seems nothing has to be done here, everything works automatically.)

Extra:
I don't calculate my work towards Profit Calculation - D.
I don't pay myself for hourly work, however I will get Payment method - Bonus.


What you think about all this?

• Is it fair?

• Would such a method to make team, work? If not, why?

• Do you have some other ideas or methods what could be better or equally effective?

• If there is something what bothers you, comment below. (something is missing, explanation sux, doesn't make sense or overlooked some areas, etc)

Btw, I think I would use similar method if it will come down to this one day, but I would also add possibility for investors to earn for investing into game.

 

[Deleted member 49793]

God Dam thats alot of info haha. You went a bit HAM I gave up half way. Seems like a big project though keep that drive going! Youll do good stuff I know it

 

[whitevo]

God Dam thats alot of info haha. You went a bit HAM I gave up half way. Seems like a big project though keep that drive going! Youll do good stuff I know it

This could be anybodys project.

I just shared my idea how I would do a team right now, when I had budget to back it up.
And I'm looking for people who would disagree with me or give their opinions, suggestions, improvements for my idea.
Because when I have finally aquired the the necessary budget, I will use one of methods given here or pretty much copy-paste my post1 to job section, inde-game forums and freelancer forums.

 

[Codex NG]

Why does it have to be a "he" seems a bit sexist

2 Euro an hour?
What do you think this is the Philippines?

Nope I don't think your business strategy will work but that is just my opinion.

Leading - should be Project Leader
Engine coding - should be Scripter
Website - should be Web Developer
Not-sprite - should be Graphic Artist
Client - should be Programmer
Map - should be Mapper
Sprites - this would fall under Graphic Artist or Animator
Database - this would fall under Web Developer

Knowing the Roles is not enough, you need to know what these people make and then assume the payout options, there is no such thing as hobby payment, whether the job takes 5 minutes or 2 weeks work is work and to be fair to both parties there needs to be a contract.

 

[Deleted member 49793]

Why does it have to be a "he" seems a bit sexist

2 Euro an hour?
What do you think this is the Philippines?

Yea this made me facepalm a bit :S

 

[whitevo]

Why does it have to be a "he" seems a bit sexist

In school I was taught to use He also as the unknown gender
I digged into Google and learned that in some countries its common mistake to use only he or she.
Fixed this.

2 Euro an hour?
What do you think this is the Philippines?

there is no such thing as hobby payment, whether the job takes 5 minutes or 2 weeks work is work and to be fair to both parties there needs to be a contract.

Ok I will have to explain the post 1 a bit better xD
Read the start again. You guys are missunderstanding me.
And idk seems most of otlanders take it as a hobby and everybody does it without contract. Or It is just me who has made scripts for free or does them for 2$ per hour.

Knowing the Roles is not enough, you need to know what these people make and then assume the payout options

Payment method:
I set the price for tasks. (For each job I make research how long would different tasks take for experienced person)

Nope I don't think your business strategy will work but that is just my opinion.

Please elaborate and how its better than most commonly used strategy here. "Lets team up, you make map I make everything else, we share profit 50/50"

Leading - should be Project Leader
Engine coding - should be Scripter
Website - should be Web Developer
Not-sprite - should be Graphic Artist
Client - should be Programmer
Map - should be Mapper
Sprites - this would fall under Graphic Artist or Animator
Database - this would fall under Web Developer

Nice nice, thank you for that.

>Post 1 has now been improved and updated with additional information.<

 

[Codex NG]

If your budget is only 3000 euro and the funds need to be distributed equally amongst the team then your looking at a poorly designed server, because no one wants to work for months and months or possibly years on a project for a lousy 375 euro.

In the USA :
(before taxes)
A Graphic Artist makes about 72k a year that is roughly $35 an hour
A Programmer makes about 100k a year that is about $50 an hour, but I've met some Programmers making 160k a year
A Web Developer makes about the same if not more than a Programmer,
A Scripter can make a little less than that of the Programmer or Web Developer.
An Animator can make as much as a Graphic Artist or 10x as much depending on the level of difficulty / programs used.

The reason people get paid so much is due to level of complexity, schooling, years of experience, applications used, and most importantly profit if a project is occupying their time they need to make money (time is money), they didn't go through all this trouble to work for others for free.

Almost every Graphic Artist I know loves to have the latest and greatest tools, Photoshop cs6 runs for about $700 (don't worry if its not the latest I'm using it as an example)
Adobe offers a cloud subscription price of $29.99 per month for a single application or $699.85 to use all of them per month.

Sure there are many tools that are freely available to the general public and ones which are not soo available (cracked versions)
The point is hardware, software & most importantly a person's time cost money.
When your dealing with this many people you need a contract 100% of the time no if ands or buts about it.
Its not you and a group of friends getting together building a server for the heck of it.

Your hiring professionals to perform certain duties, especially if you place a mandate on how active they have to be in order to stay relavent as part of the team.

I just don't think you have a real grasp on the reality of building a high-end game from a team based perspective

Well Good luck working on your business strategy..

 

[whitevo]

If your budget is only 3000 euro and the funds need to be distributed equally amongst the team then your looking at a poorly designed server, because no one wants to work for months and months or possibly years on a project for a lousy 375 euro.

In the USA :
(before taxes)
A Graphic Artist makes about 72k a year that is roughly $35 an hour
A Programmer makes about 100k a year that is about $50 an hour, but I've met some Programmers making 160k a year
A Web Developer makes about the same if not more than a Programmer,
A Scripter can make a little less than that of the Programmer or Web Developer.
An Animator can make as much as a Graphic Artist or 10x as much depending on the level of difficulty / programs used.

The reason people get paid so much is due to level of complexity, schooling, years of experience, applications used, and most importantly profit if a project is occupying their time they need to make money (time is money), they didn't go through all this trouble to work for others for free.

Almost every Graphic Artist I know loves to have the latest and greatest tools, Photoshop cs6 runs for about $700 (don't worry if its not the latest I'm using it as an example)
Adobe offers a cloud subscription price of $29.99 per month for a single application or $699.85 to use all of them per month.

Sure there are many tools that are freely available to the general public and ones which are not soo available (cracked versions)
The point is hardware, software & most importantly a person's time cost money.
When your dealing with this many people you need a contract 100% of the time no if ands or buts about it.
Its not you and a group of friends getting together building a server for the heck of it.

Your hiring professionals to perform certain duties, especially if you place a mandate on how active they have to be in order to stay relavent as part of the team.

I just don't think you have a real grasp on the reality of building a high-end game from a team based perspective

Well Good luck working on your business strategy..

Why don't you want to read my first post..
This not a real job, this project would be hobby for all the team-members.

Or are you telling me right now that all the servers out there every member of team gets 100k per year for being part of server?
Yes, yes. Ofcourse they don't. But do they all even get what I offer for my own pocket?
Because where else you think this money will come in first place.

I am simply making similar team, but difference is I give some kind back for the work they do and distribute the game profit more or less equally than just dividing it.

Not only you are stuck on that "hourly payment" section. You fail to see main source of income. (bonus)

After game is ready. You are not kicked out of team or anything and you will keep getting bonus.
If you support server ~6-12 hours a week with your talent or stay connected (reporting why you didn't have time or whatever the case is, etc)
Lets say game has 2000 players and 20% pay 5 euros per month.
Lets say 3 people are are in team. (2000€-whatever-job done) is divided between these team-members for 6-12 hours.
This is a dream hobby what I'm trying to build and I would not stop on mere 2000 players.
Unfortunately I don't have thousands of euros to spend monthly to go legal and crazy like you would wish.

But seems you have your own idea of making OT-like team. Please let us know how would you do it with 3000€ budget.
Also I would be interested of knowing how does @J.Dre has planned his team financially, because if I'm not mistaken he also has team for making OT-like server.

EDIT:

Your hiring professionals to perform certain duties

I am "hiring" anybody. Even if it will be your first time to make a map for tibia-like game. You are in. But task is done when its done. When you in team, you will stay in team, if you keep learning your passion or whatever reason you started to help me with Whi World map.

This discussion is going a bit offtopic, because the method I brought on table was kind of my plan for Whi World and I'm trying to explain it. But it just simply feels that you are not reading my post troughly and just skimming few words out of it, so I can't really improve it.

The post was also meant for anybody else to use. So lot of more ideas and methods would be welcome.
Trust me there are people out there who seem to want to make cool server and have a little cash to spend. I am very new to this forum compared to all the old fishes, but twice I have been asked to be partner for making so called "cash-grab server" where they would put in the first ~300$ bucks required for host and advertisement and I would be the scripter/GM. But its not that simple to make it work in week or 2.

When my time opens up eventually, perhaps I will join up with one of them, I would have nothing to loose but month or 2 of my free time.

 

[Codex NG]

If I were to build a game server I would program everything myself, the website, the database, the client, the server anything that involved programming of any kind I would do it myself and if I didn't know the language I would teach myself it.

Then I would employ an artist & writer to create some concept art & lore based on the direction of the game, from there I would hire animators & graphic artists to produce idealistic sprites and an interface for the client.

Then I would hire a front-end web developer to create a template for the website based on the concept art, graphics & sprites generated by the artists.

I don't care if it takes me 20 years to build a game because I wouldn't be doing it for the money but I don't expect people to use their talents for free for me either

 

[whitevo]

So in other words you would do what I'm doing right now.
And pretty much saying that with such a budget its almost impossible find a team-member.

Even still. I will try to form a team with small budget when time comes.

 

[Eiffel]

Honestly, in the Tibia world, your best off teaming with people who do it out of passion rather than payment. Once you enter the realm of business with a game like Tibia (not using Tibia sprites, but similarities will be there), there is very little you can accomplish with such a budget to make a standalone game.


The only way you can hope to make such a project happen is if a group of passionate and like-minded people worked together to make the game in about 2 years and then release it on Steam as an Indie Game. Then, you hope you have designed something fun and sustainable, and if you're very lucky, you'll make a couple hundred thousand. Now you use that money and hire actual professionals to make the game better, or divide it between your team and do it as your main job.

As it stands however, it seems the biggest hurdle is making the Art. A game like Tibia is actually not that impressive in terms of the coding/scripting.

 

[whitevo]

Honestly, in the Tibia world, your best off teaming with people who do it out of passion rather than payment. Once you enter the realm of business with a game like Tibia (not using Tibia sprites, but similarities will be there), there is very little you can accomplish with such a budget to make a standalone game.


The only way you can hope to make such a project happen is if a group of passionate and like-minded people worked together to make the game in about 2 years and then release it on Steam as an Indie Game. Then, you hope you have designed something fun and sustainable, and if you're very lucky, you'll make a couple hundred thousand. Now you use that money and hire actual professionals to make the game better, or divide it between your team and do it as your main job.

As it stands however, it seems the biggest hurdle is making the Art. A game like Tibia is actually not that impressive in terms of the coding/scripting.

Yeah, that would be the point, but I'm passionate and helping others for small $ or for free, so I'm sure there are others like me.
This method of mine will just improve the trust and teamwork.

 

[Flatlander]

Yeah, that would be the point, but I'm passionate and helping others for small $ or for free, so I'm sure there are others like me.
This method of mine will just improve the trust and teamwork.

First, 3,000 is maybe 1 month's budget for a group of that size, not a project-total.

You might say "People should be fine with making a small amount to do their hobby" but they aren't.

You either need one of 2 things:

1. People willing to work for free, and get then get a % of the profits.
2. Have a list of "Tasks" with their costs

For Example:

• Monsters - 2-10$ per Acceptable Monster (Includes creation of custom spells/AI/Etc for each monster)
• Map - 1-5$ per 10sqm Acceptable Map (Includes extreme attention to detail for the 5$/10sqm)
• Pixel Art - 1-3$ per 32x32 frame (So an outfit would be around 20-50$ depending on addons/7frame walking animation)
  
• New Client Features - 2-50$ per Acceptable Client Feature (Includes any future Bug-Fixes for feature)
• New TFS Features - 2-50$ per Acceptable Server Feature (Includes any future Bug-Fixes for feature)
• New Website Feature - 2-50$ Per Acceptable Website Feature (Includes any future Bug-Fixes for feature)

Example of 2$ Features:

• Adding new Bar to HealthInfo in otclient
• Changing Screen Size of Client
• Adding additional equipment slots
• 32x32 pixel item (1 frame)
  
• 20 sqm low-detail Map Area
  
• Ambiance Custom Monster (like a dog that follows players around town, and runs away if they target it)

Anything harder than the above, should be priced more than the above on your to-do list. Then people can select a task and do it, and if they complete the task successfully then they get paid.

If you notice a task on the list is not getting completed, you could always increase the price.

This means with your $3000 budget you could get:

1. 2000SQM of Detailed Map costing 200-1000$ [Round to $600 for 1000sqm of highly detailed mapping and 1000sqm of low-detail mapping] - Depending on quality might need to increase $$
   
2. 20 Custom Creatures costing between 60-200$[Round to 140$) (Scripting .xml and spells/ai only) --Depending on Quality might need to increase $$
   
3. 20 Custom Monster Sprites costing between 900-2400$ [Round To 1050$ for 15 32x32 monsters and 5 64x64 monsters)
   
4. 4 Player Outfits costing 80-200$ (Lets just say you pay the full $200 for the best looking outfits)

And after the above you'd have $1010 left for Client/Server/Website features.
And above is being an kind of cheap. But you'd hope the people working would ALSO be doing it as a hobby, and be excited for your server.

 

[whitevo]

Ty for response @Flatlander , going to update post 1 shortly. (its going to take a hour or 2), because I will explain a bit deeper how I was planning to use the budget.

Also making list of features what got to be completed, might be better idea.
I was more of thinking linear work.
For example, next content update requires:
2 new monsters. (boss and regular monster)
6 new items.
new map part.
8-20 new sprites.
1 new animated flying effect and tile effect.
1 graphic picture for beautiful art hype.
1 new highscore table for the new boss in website.
1 new function in client. (Player screen expands from 7 tile radius to 14 tile radius inside the boss room)

So with linear I meant, even though the update requires 2 monsters. I will take it step by step and wont give details about 2nd monster before the first one is done. same with items and sprites, etc
In my case it would be fairly easy:
1 spell takes 10-120minutes to do, depending on complexity (I got spellCreating system)
As a scripter myself I would guess how much time it would take to complete all the monsters.
Lets says its 10 hours.
As stated above this equals 20 eur.

Items, unless they are ridiculously unique it also takes average 20-60min to do.
Lets guess that the time to make items is 5 hours.
This is another 10€

Now the client function.
Well right now I got no idea how does client even work, but lets say that function is hard and takes about 20 hours.
this is would be 40€

Scripter would get 70€ for this content, how scripter spreads that ~35 hours is entirely up to scripter. 2 hours a day to get it done in 2 and half week or 3 hour per week to get it done in 3 months.
If I got more scripters in team, then I would give them a choice who will start with what script.

Now to map. I have no clue how long takes mapping, but when I did it then with 5 hours I was able to simply figure out the shape and at best used 3 different sprites.
But for example sake, lets say that making map takes about 30 hours.
This would be 60 €

Lets skip the graphics and stuff, by now you have prolly understood what I meant with 2€/h and how long it can take.
The point is, that everybody gets equally same "something" for their time, its not much, but more than nothing.

Lets say that team is putting a little more effort into this and the content gets ready in 2months.
This also means that if server is racking up profits already. It is spread twice among team-members by that time.

Increasing the price just because nobody is willing to do it, is most likely not going to happen. Then its simply time to find someone who will or learn it myself. I just can't stop eating and stop paying bills, because someone in team says its not worth my time. If that is going to be the issue, then most likely his not in my team in first place.

First, 3,000 is maybe 1 month's budget for a group of that size, not a project-total.

You are right about that. This would be ~amount required to pay for few first months, while with my own work I will be able afford additional months after the budget has been reached.
In best case scenario, what I'm thriving for is: Server monthly profit covers the small amount of cost, what I'm spending to get new content out faster with team-members help.

 

[whitevo]

bump

 

[Codex NG]

me me me ... wall of text up there... i'll do it.. for $$.. just kidding..
what do you need help with?

 

[whitevo]

me me me ... wall of text up there... i'll do it.. for $$.. just kidding..
what do you need help with?

Are you talking about this post or Whi World server?

If you want to improve this thread then answer these questions.
Although you already have, but time has changed, maybe your thoughts have changed. Mine have but not that much.

What you think about all this?

• Is it fair?

• Would such a method to make team, work? If not, why?

• Do you have some other ideas or methods what could be better or equally effective?

• If there is something what bothers you, comment below. (something is missing, explanation sux, doesn't make sense or overlooked some areas, etc)

If you talking about helping Whi World then check out these posts first:

Spoiler: offtopic

https://otland.net/threads/whi-world-team-assistant-position.238062/
https://otland.net/threads/whi-world-team-mapper-position.234852/
https://otland.net/threads/whi-world-team-client-developer.235924/

 

[Codex NG]

Are you talking about this post or Whi World server?

If you want to improve this thread then answer these questions.
Although you already have, but time has changed, maybe your thoughts have changed. Mine have but not that much.


If you talking about helping Whi World then check out these posts first:

Spoiler: offtopic

https://otland.net/threads/whi-world-team-assistant-position.238062/
https://otland.net/threads/whi-world-team-mapper-position.234852/
https://otland.net/threads/whi-world-team-client-developer.235924/

I can't draw or map... so all that is left is coding.. and of course brain storming
I am just bored.. and you have been pretty determined to get this project off the ground even with everyone giving you shit about it including myself lol.