How big is too big? And how to solve the 'Archipelago' problem ALL maps have?

[Sun]

if you are sick "idiotic kids" then ignore the thread or just ignore them.

Or pull out the cable since there's no avoiding it

 

[Synnical]

This thread went from bad to worse real fast. In my opinion Stormtrooper guy is right, I think Sinth is a weird guy and I think he lies/ can't take criticism. But I also think this community needs to be less hostile with each other, I am no greater than anyone else, nor is codex, we've all been sucked into petty arguments that made us look silly in hindsight.

 

[Arashel]

Stormtrooper guy

❤

 

[Andréew]

I just wanna say @Arashel from this Day until my last, i fucking love you! @Sinth you better go to bed its late.
And @Codex NG about your "tip" on ignoring and go forth and that everyone on the Internet lies is the worst ever, thats what made the Internet what it is today, i think its One of the reasons people on this forum is so inactive and just quit careing about the community.

So what its the Internet if you cant say it to my face irl dont say it on Internet aswell.. We have to put the gandalf stick down to the ground and tell kids its not ok to lie, or behave like a jackass on the internet.

 

[whitevo]

Personally maps looking like archipelagos like Original Tibia isn't that appealing. Just a bunch of WoW-like instances(the latest 5 years of progress on the world-map at least).

But there's a reason for that isn't it? Most Custom maps looks the same even though some have put a lot of effort into starting with a big continent or re-doing the world-map as their maps have grown.

When does a map become too big? And what stops a server from having 10,000 players instead of 1000, technically?

It isn't rly a problem though, because in tibia you see everything top-down. You are not going to see an in-game epic landscape as far as your eye can see.

I think map becomes too big when, half the map is "annoying"/"boring" to walk trough in just few or first walk by.
Technically only host stops allowing 10,000+ players online at the same time and maybe also having all the players on same tile. (Don't think anyone has tested it xD)
But yeah all servers could theoretically hold that big player count, but most server would get rly boring when too many people online.

In Whi World, monsters scale depending how many players go against them at once, to avoid mass murdering the content, but how well does it work and whats the limit even for that is unknown.
Haven't had over 4 players at once killing single monster.

 

[Codex NG]

I just wanna say @Arashel from this Day until my last, i fucking love you! @Sinth you better go to bed its late.
And @Codex NG about your "tip" on ignoring and go forth and that everyone on the Internet lies is the worst ever, thats what made the Internet what it is today, i think its One of the reasons people on this forum is so inactive and just quit careing about the community.

So what its the Internet if you cant say it to my face irl dont say it on Internet aswell.. We have to put the gandalf stick down to the ground and tell kids its not ok to lie, or behave like a jackass on the internet.

Anything I say to you people on this forum I will absolutely say to your face

 

[Sinth]

I just wanna say @Arashel from this Day until my last, i fucking love you! @Sinth you better go to bed its late.
And @Codex NG about your "tip" on ignoring and go forth and that everyone on the Internet lies is the worst ever, thats what made the Internet what it is today, i think its One of the reasons people on this forum is so inactive and just quit careing about the community.

So what its the Internet if you cant say it to my face irl dont say it on Internet aswell.. We have to put the gandalf stick down to the ground and tell kids its not ok to lie, or behave like a jackass on the internet.

Lying? Really? I've still made maps for 10+ years, how YOU CHOSE to interpret that is up to you and OFCOURSE, it can be taken too literal and taken out of context. Is "I've made map for 10 years" saying that i've been "making maps" 8h a day for 10 years? No, it doesn not. Not even imply it. It basically says i've made maps for a long fucking time which is still a true statement.

Codex tip of not caring about "liars" is top notch btw. Sure, I've seen Ashashel do this on a thread where the host of a server were obviously lying about player numbers and such and for a few seconds I thought he did a good job.. but COME ON.. hosts have to be competitive and use any pr-trick they can or else they will most likely fail, simple as that. Even the most succcessful OTs have used MASSIVE amounts of "fake" players/accs that just stand in the corner of the map somewhere(I have a friend who looked up 50+ characters who were all only online to up the playernumbers, and this was on one of the top 5 servers(not naming/shaming the host/server).

And "So what its the Internet if you cant say it to my face irl dont say it on Internet aswell..".. EXACTLY, kid. Would you take my statement of mapping 10 years and call me a liar to my face irl? No, you wouldn't. You would perhaps think "Oh this guy is full of shit/exaggerates" but would such a lose statement be enough to call me a liar irl? Umm..no. Most likely not.

It isn't rly a problem though, because in tibia you see everything top-down. You are not going to see an in-game epic landscape as far as your eye can see.

I think map becomes too big when, half the map is "annoying"/"boring" to walk trough in just few or first walk by.
Technically only host stops allowing 10,000+ players online at the same time and maybe also having all the players on same tile. (Don't think anyone has tested it xD)
But yeah all servers could theoretically hold that big player count, but most server would get rly boring when too many people online.

In Whi World, monsters scale depending how many players go against them at once, to avoid mass murdering the content, but how well does it work and whats the limit even for that is unknown.
Haven't had over 4 players at once killing single monster.

True, you'll never see it but.. what i'm after is what your subconcious register(aka the "feel") aswell as to make a worldmap that actually looks good. It's a very blurry subject/area though, so kind of hard to map "aiming" for it And yeah ofcourse, everything is seen from top down so that's what you should focus on more probably.


Btw, i've actually seen OTs now that have a custom map, full of islands, that looks GREAT. Even made me want to do the same but im 1k+ hours into mapping so not remaking anything Not sure what server it was but they proved to me that its actually possible to do it and make it look/feel great. Cipsofts map however, still sucks

 

[Michael Orsino]

Can we keep this discussion on topic at all? It's an interesting topic regarding map design, but disappointingly this thread has been immensely tainted with negativity.
No need to throw any blame around, no need to even mention it again - it no longer matters. Let's try and stay on topic from here on.


One of the issues with creating floor level variance across a map in order to create more interesting landscapes is the resulting impacts on PVP.
Stair hoppers make me cry, and most people don't enjoy stairhop PVP. So if stairs (ramps, ladders, holes etc.) are too readily available, PVP will be worse for it.
Now, keeping in mind that issue, if you were to script all ramps, ladders, holes etc. to reject players if they have PZ-lock, you could overcome this issue however this would need to be considered right from the start of the mapping process to ensure players couldn't find themselves trapped in a very small arena where noob characters could constantly harass them.

I also find it interesting that most mappers create archipelago/island based maps. Usually a main continent and several smaller islands that still play major roles - just like real tibia. This is in contrast with many other RPG games where the vast majority of the 'story' resides on the main continent and the 'islands' form only very minor roles. e.g. LOTR's Middle Earth.
When mapping in Tibia, it is difficult to naturally 'wall off' areas of a continent without using vast mountains or water. I'd suggest people facing this issue take a closer look at Cipsoft's Edron map, where trees etc. form a border too.

 

[Sinth]

Can we keep this discussion on topic at all? It's an interesting topic regarding map design, but disappointingly this thread has been immensely tainted with negativity.
No need to throw any blame around, no need to even mention it again - it no longer matters. Let's try and stay on topic from here on.


One of the issues with creating floor level variance across a map in order to create more interesting landscapes is the resulting impacts on PVP.
Stair hoppers make me cry, and most people don't enjoy stairhop PVP. So if stairs (ramps, ladders, holes etc.) are too readily available, PVP will be worse for it.
Now, keeping in mind that issue, if you were to script all ramps, ladders, holes etc. to reject players if they have PZ-lock, you could overcome this issue however this would need to be considered right from the start of the mapping process to ensure players couldn't find themselves trapped in a very small arena where noob characters could constantly harass them.

I also find it interesting that most mappers create archipelago/island based maps. Usually a main continent and several smaller islands that still play major roles - just like real tibia. This is in contrast with many other RPG games where the vast majority of the 'story' resides on the main continent and the 'islands' form only very minor roles. e.g. LOTR's Middle Earth.
When mapping in Tibia, it is difficult to naturally 'wall off' areas of a continent without using vast mountains or water. I'd suggest people facing this issue take a closer look at Cipsoft's Edron map, where trees etc. form a border too.

Perhaps possible to put a 0.5 sec delay on floorchange? Hmm.. that would be something. That'd really be awesome(I think this will be a weak-spot on my map as I have many floor-changes out in the landscapes).

I think the archipelagos are a direct result of 2 things, in order:

1, as you say, you'd have to close off the map with water/mountains that perhaps doesn't look very aestethic on a bigger scale/map.

2, as far as i've seen not many custom maps are made by 1 person(I actually believe my map is one of the biggest ever made by a single person, impossible to know ofcourse but from what i've seen of current active servers/maps it's in the top at least) but instead it's made by a team of developers.

But, you could easily slice a pizza in 2-8 pieces and then put it back together again, but for some reason most teams chose to create their own island and very few "glue" their work together with the other teammembers. Unfortunately.


Yeah most MMORPGs/Fantasy-worlds have 1-2 large continents and then just a few small islands. If you look on our earth though, it's actually more archipelago than what I(and Tolkien for example ) am looking to create. Perhaps the rl earth is badly mapped and we're correct though

Cutting off with trees, yes! I just started doing more actively and with more intention just 2 days ago and.. wow. People need to do this more. The results look absolutely stunning(to have dense forests and more realistic woods) compared to the standard scatter of trees(Tibia mainland).


And thank you @mdwilliams , let's keep this on track now it's an interesting subject for sure! I'll post some screens here from my map to show how I solved cutting off with both mountains and smaller areas with trees in a few days(polishing atm, not quite happy with it yet ).

 

[Andréew]

ok lets keep it on topic...

i dont think its a big deal, well ofcourse if you have a worldmap shown it is but when ingame people wont notice in the same way..
exiva "******" can be a little wierd if a bunch of islands is randomly placed in the world map.

 

[whitevo]

Now, keeping in mind that issue, if you were to script all ramps, ladders, holes etc. to reject players if they have PZ-lock, you could overcome this issue however this would need to be considered right from the start of the mapping process to ensure players couldn't find themselves trapped in a very small arena where noob characters could constantly harass them.

eh? you simply register item id's with specific script. My solution would be that if player has taken damage in between x seconds then it will take him lets say 2 seconds to climb ladder. If something damages thee player at that time then ladder climbing is stopped.
If its stair then you get like 10% slow for 2 seconds. Using stairs again before 5 sec results the next stair give 20% slow. On top of that perhaps reduce the slow amounts for chaser?

Anyway got ahead of myself, what I wanted to say is that scripting map is not an issue and frankly its the easiest thing to do of them all.

For mapping what you think of this?

Make the world round?
I know it will look buggy if the imaginary line is in plain field (like in my server xD, if you are on the infinite route with someone else)
But if you put the line between map floors, huge crossing, etc then having other characters nearby wont give off the hint that they just teleported other side of the map and it will look normal to them.

 

[Amiroslo]

@ OP
9 in is too big for most women

 

[Sinth]

Queros! (refering to the NPC, not being a hater xD )