Question for the Ot players

[Castiel23]

So i have a question to ask today, since a set of Devs seam to think its incorrect logic of mine to feel kicked in the balls.

Say you are playing a server that has a bunch of vocations, but only a few in the Rook zone of the server. You get a promotion around the level 20 marker (on a 1x server )and get to leave rook. so this takes a bit of time to get to. you are playing a melee type class, and you have the option to go into a few dps classes or a tank class.

You choose to go with a dps class, the game kicks you to save your character or whatnot, and when you log back in, you find that the core mechanic of your melee class for the last many hours of play is now gone. it is a defensive ability that has kept you alive all this time and gets ripped away from you and now you are tossed into a strange new land without the one ability you have been using on your entire journey until this point. That alone should have been enough to make you feel like crap for promoting your character, but then you also find that you now have 200 Cap less and didnt gain any new abilities.

Or how about if you chose to go into the Tank promotion. Now you still have that defensive ability, but instead, had multiple/all of your damage dealing abilities now taken away from your character that you used to level up with.

Now add this development model to all the promoted classes in the game 10+. Where you are taught how to play a on the rook island, and then when you get to have your promotion a bunch of your abilities are taken away from you that you either used to keep you alive and are now gone, or used to hunt and are now taken from you.

My logic is that you should never have something taken away from you for getting promoted, and that you should always retain the abilities that you used to learn how to play/survive with. I don't know of any professional business model for a game that would do such a thing.

I am told from the devs that players wont care at all, and that its entirely logical to strip you of what you once knew for a promotion.

Are they correct? will the player base not care about losing abilities they had for their characters entire lives for a promotion and essentially get nerfed for promoting?


ps: This will be a surefire way to get flammed on a forum board, you will simply be ignored

 

[Demonatti]

As far as I can tell. Players dont mind as they already know on what consists this new vocation. That way the will choose their vocation more carefully.

 

[dotsh]

I think as long as they are AWARE of the changes that will happen to their characters after they make their choices, it should be fine.

 

[Zasranets]

I don't recall many developers removing abilities when promoting and I've played more custom servers with custom vocations than I can imagine, even tons of non-English servers because there are some really interesting servers out there in other languages. It seems like USA servers tend to have a lot more Real Map and or Download and Run servers....

As you said the logic in itself doesn't really make sense. You should by no means lose what you already knew when promoting it just doesn't make sense. When promoting it should help you and be a benefit so I'm not sure what server you saw this on, but it seems rather weird. How would you downgrade when getting a promotion? WHY would you downgrade if you get a promotion? If you downgrade in a sense then you can't really call it a promotion.

The way I see it is that you should retain most things you were capable of before a promotion. For example if you are a warrior in Rookguard and you hit ranging from 20-50, you hit level 20 and promote to a Berserker (a more fierce and deadly class) you should now be hitting a lot more than before so let's just say you now hit 80-150. On the other hand if you decide to become a Guardian (a more defensive tank type class) you should still get an increase in damage. It obviously won't be much but it shouldn't decrease so lets say you now have a range of 60-100.

Now this is based on logic, of which most server don't use. The thing I love about OT's is that there is no limit to what you can do (to a certain point). If you are creative/skilled enough you can almost do anything you desire. You can make the server based on your opinions, thoughts and ideas which is beautiful, creativity has no limit.

I could see ways where getting a promotion could give you some disadvantages and I don't mind that, but if it weakens you more than it strengthens you then something is something is wrong and it most certainly isn't a promotion. For example if you're playing in Rookguard and you're using a shield and sword you're some what tanky. Then you get to level 20 and promote to an assassin (a class which dual wields daggers) you will now be hitting a lot more and much quicker. To even this out you have to make the assassin more fragile compared to other classes. You can look at it from 2 points now. Since you are now using 2 daggers and no shield you are prone to take more damage are you not? Does this mean you will take more damage then when you did in Rookguard since you don't have a shield anymore, or less damage since you were promoted, but still take more damage than other promoted classes?

Honestly a developer is able to do what she/he wants to. It's their server and if they decide to make promotions have drawbacks or as you said "get nerfed for promoting" then so be it, they are entitled to their own ideas and opinions. Some players might like it and others won't, you will never make everyone happy. I can pretty much guarantee though, that if people are playing a server where the promotion hurts them badly then there will be lot's of complaining as a promotion should more helpful then harmful.

In any case, if the Dev's are trying to create something serious they should ask players for feedback about what they want to see, as the player opinions are very important. A server without players is no server at all. Gather feedback from players and fuse them with your ideas to create a product that both sides will like.

TL;DR
Dev's are able to do what they want on their server.
Promotion should be an upgrade from before but can have minimal drawbacks.

 

[Flatlander]

Ok, I have no idea what server he speaks of but I can think of a ton of reasons why you would want to do this.

First, i'll make up a few melee dps classes

Ninja - Fast attack, can go invisible, cannot heal (has to regenerate hp normally), fast movement speed
Warrior - Medium attack, can do a charge spell and use a battle-cry to increase nearby teammate's damage, normal movement speed
Tank - low attack, cannot use ranged spells, and a "shield of thorn" spell to reflect damage, slower movement speed

Ok, well if you had "light healing" in rook, you'd lose that when becoming a ninja. the Tank cannot use ranged spells so you'd lose whirlwind throw if you had it in rook. and the warrior probably wouldn't lose much.

And I assure you, I people would enjoy playing all 3 of the above classes even if you lost spells. And even if you didn't gain new spells for a little while after promoting.

I woudln't make a server like this, but to say that it is bad game design isn't exactly right. It would only be bad game design if they didn't tell you that you'd lose the spells, or if it was then impossible to hunt without the previous spells, which I doubt is the case.

 

[Fargo]

Castiel, Obamanator, you're focusing too much on a narrow spectrum revolving around a single spell which you based your character on and need to look at the broader picture to better understand what going through a promotion is about. While playing you created a playstyle centered around a single spell in order to survive in a starter environment, which is fine in this area. You obtain a promotion on the starter island to experience the other vocations that are possible, but the thing is that those promoted characters are playing in the wrong environment. In the new environment you now have to fulfill a role you have chosen be it an offensive class, defensive class, or balanced class. What use does an offensive class have for a defensive class's spell? As stated by Flatlander spells are lost in order for the new role to be properly used to its strengths.

I understand your logic for raging at losing a spell you used to survive, you also have to keep in mind that from a lore perspective the lost spell makes complete sense to lose a spell or two in order to gain a plethora of new ones that are much more useful and powerful than the previous one you lost.

Take the mage vocation for example, you upgraded your items enhance and boost a fire spell to make it powerful compared to the stock spell but you decide to promote to a healer class. Should you still have that powerful fire spell when your role is now to heal? The answer is no. You will have to create new equipment to cater around a new playstyle. When you are playing in a new environment you will feel less powerful because you used equipment to boost your damage and are now put back into where the stock damage is. Over the next ten levels or so you will feel more powerful and fit to fill a role in the game in the proper environment.

In addition to losing a spell you also are given a passive that alters your gameplay further and making it more in-depth. For an example I'll use Necronia; The warrior class has a shell spell that enables them to effectively have a 'second shield of hit points' which essentially allows them to be hit without actually taking damage. Now when they promote to a berserker they now have a new passive called feral rage which makes it so the more they are hit the faster you attack. Why would a berserker use the spell shell when their playstyle is going to be around taking damage? It defeats the purpose of the passive, thus taking away shell is a logical step.

In order to evolve you must first adapt. To adapt you need to change your perspective. To change your perspective you must first look into the future and see the wider picture.

 

[Zasranets]

Indeed, there are tons of reason why could do it, but they way he explained it, it seems that the classes become WORSE after the promotion which shouldn't happen. "essentially get nerfed for promoting"
The vocations you (Flatlander) explain are perfectly fine because you gain more than you lose. A Ninja gets faster attack, can go invisble, AND has fast movement speed, so of course there has to be a drawback which in this
case is that you cannot heal, that is perfectly understandable and resonable considering Ninja's should be fragile. The same goes for other classes, obviously a tank won't be hitting near other classes since thier role is to tank; a blocker.

I've also played on servers where before promotion you will have basic spells like light healing, light, attacking spells, etc.. and once you promote they are gone, but you gain a new set of spells
so it's not a big deal. It honestly all depends on the type of server. There are servers where promotion is useless, some where it only increase regen, and of course some which gives new spells and or passives.

He is talking from a logcial stand point in which it makes sense. If you promote it doesn't make sense to get weaker! The tankier class should get a small damage increase while the fragile classes should
get a high damage increase. This way you don't get a lower damage than before the promotion while still maintaing the roles of the classes. Then again this all depends and revoles around how the server works, what the monsters are like, the pace of the server, etc..

I've seen all kind of wacky and crazy ideas with vocations and there is nothing wrong with that. If that's how the Dev's want it to be so then be it.
It's there server to do with as they please.

 

[Shadowsong]

I'm going to take this to a subjective area, seeing that you're talking about what happened to you on Necronia.

They day that happened, I was just about to explain the reason behind that logic to you on world chat, but you logged off in rage. Either way, I analyzed your concern and figured that we should lower the level requirement for some starter class spells, so when you promote, you get roughly the same amount of new spells to compensate for the loss of basic ones. I don't know yet how you as an individual feel about this, but I feel that this change was needed and was a good move to address this situation with.

I'm also sure that I never said that players won't care about it, but that testers that have played Necronia so far have never complained about it, as it is a given feature that's taken for granted. To put it shortly, it's how the game works.

To fill anyone who wants to discuss in, in Necronia, you start with any of the 3 basic vocations (mage, warrior and ranger) that promote into more specified and shaped classes on a certain level.
Each of these basic vocations is able to use a variety of spells that characterize an aspect of your potential new vocation. So let's take that warrior for example:

Warriors, in total, have 6 class related spells:
Weaponswing - Damages the target by hitting with your weapon. 25% chance to deal 10-15 bonus damage.
Immobilizing Throw - Channels a powerful weapon-throw that immobilizes the target for 3 seconds upon impact and exhausts you for 4 seconds.
Headbutt - Hit your target with your own head. The strength of this spell depends on your Rage skill, and the armor of your helmet. This ability will recoil for 8-25 damage.
Challenging Shout - Challenges the target to attack you.
Shield Up! - Increases your defense by 40% for 20 seconds.
Shell - Gives you a barrier that protects you against damage. The barrier's strength depends on the defense of your shield and your base shielding. This barrier is stackable until a certain cap.

If you read the spells, you'll notice that some of them are defensive, while some are offensive. That way you get to experience a bit of everything that's in you, to help you make your decision towards what you're gonna promote into in the end. However, most players already have an idea of what they want to promote into as soon as they read the possibilities. I'm gonna go here with the fact that we're accounting for everyone, not just the said majority.

Now, once you promote, you take on a specific role that you've chosen. Within each vocation, there are 3 to 4 classes with different stats and roles. For a detailed explanation of each class, and our thoughts on them, go here. Once you promote into a certain class, we take away the abilities that are characteristic to other classes, and let you keep the ones that are characteristic to your chosen one. In addition, your stats (hp, mana, cap, soul) change accordingly, and you get new spells that are only for your new class.

New spells are unlocked by leveling, with gaps that often range from 6 to 12 levels. You obtain an amount of at least 4-5 new abilities in the level range of 10 to 20, which is about the time when you promote.
So, depending on which class you've chosen, we perform these alterations to fit you better into your new role.

I agree that Shell might be one of the best spells in the beginner Warrior spell set, and it is there for a reason - to help you through your times as a beginner, and to let you feel that defensive side of Warrior. If you promote into an offensive class, it is without doubt we'll be removing your defensive spells and replacing them with offensive ones.

There is no reason why we should let Swordsmen keep Headbutt, as the spell scales with a skill used by Wildhearts. There is no reason why we should let Berserker keep shell, as it (as already stated by Dark199) directly contradicts the core of that class. (Berserker passive: The lower your HP is, the faster you attack.)

To let you view this from the bird's perspective, here is a small chart displaying the transformation that happens with your spell sets as you promote:

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Hopefully, this gives you a better insight into the point of this entire story, or helps some other development explore the possibilities when facing such choices. We chose to do it this way, and for reasons explained up there, I believe it is a good way to go.

Whether we should write a giant sign on the character creation page saying:
"Don't play this game if you are going to get aggravated about losing defensive abilities and gaining offensive ones upon promoting into an offensive class." is debatable, but in my opinion, pretty redundant as the thing is self explanatory.

Now, one more thing,
In case you feel like the class you promoted to does not fulfill its role properly, we'll be happy to asses the situation and make changes under given valid reasoning. As you could've noticed from your time on Necronia, we take your complaints and suggestions seriously and change things after analyzing and realizing a mistake or failure on our part. But please take that to our own forum where we can discuss further.

Interesting topic nevertheless, it's always good for developers to see how the entire public feels about certain things.​